Oh, I dunno... But referring back to your first post in the thread:

I'd say maybe you might have taken the opportunity to spread misinformation about crossbows to further your own point of view that they shouldn't be allowed in archery seasons. Wouldn't be the first time people have done that. The Professional Bowhunters Society has a special anti-crossbow committee doing that very thing.

Again, I'm not saying it wasn't done because I wasn't there. But I am very skeptical, as anyone should be when they see extraordinary claims about anything. Especially when the person making the claim has already laid out his agenda.

"Crossbow Tests
March 2005

Great Lakes Crossbow Co. -DURANGO

The reason for conducting these tests was to establish a basis for performance measurements between modern crossbows and other hunting weapons, most specifically, modern compound bows. Given the movement to redefine crossbows as conventional archery tackle so as to allow their use during bowhunting-only seasons, it seemed appropriate to provide a means for comparison. Of particular interest was the accuracy potential of a rested crossbow at extended ranges. Crossbow manufacturers list velocity and pull weights, but I am not aware of any published accuracy expectations.

In early March 2005 I obtained a Great Lakes Crossbow Co. Durango model crossbow in slightly used condition. While it does not have as high peak weight (165 pounds) as many of the “high performance” crossbows that peak at 175 pounds to 200 pounds, it does have a 17-inch power stroke, and overall, it’s velocity and kinetic energy ratings compare favorably with other modern crossbows.

This crossbow has an overall weight of 8 ¼ lbs., 34-inch length without the stirrup, and very heavy two-piece limbs with an axle-to-axle length of 27 ¼ inches. It uses round cams, approximately 2 9/16 inches in diameter. It comes fitted with a 4 power, parallax adjustable scope with hand adjustable windage and elevation turrets. The trigger has a pull weight of over 7 pounds, with considerable creep and overtravel. While the crossbow does have a crossbolt safety, it can’t be engaged until after the crossbow is cocked and it is in an awkward location to operate safely. Five bolts were also provided. They were fitted with 100 grain screw-in target points and 5” vanes at a slight straight offset. The shafts are 2219 Easton aluminum, cut to 22 1/8 inches before inserts and had an average weight, with points, of 476 grains.

Although as the shooter, I have no previous experience shooting crossbows, I do have considerable experience in competitive rifle shooting.

The first test took place indoors on March 10th. A total of 4 bolts were shot before the cocking mechanism broke under pressure, causing minor damage and some trepidation on the part of the operator. The crossbow was rested across a stool with all 4 shots taken at 22 yards. The initial shot was used to adjust the sights and find a hard spot on the bales where the bolts wouldn’t pass completely through them, and then three shots were taken at the same point of aim. The first was taken then pulled. The second entered within ½ inch of the first bolt hole and then a third was shot, which hit right next to the second and almost exactly in the hole that the first was pulled from. As mentioned, the cocking winch broke at that point, but a three shot group of under ¾ inches was a pretty impressive start.

After the winch was repaired I was back at the range on March 12th to shoot at longer distances. The crossbow was shot from a shooting bench with sandbags. I had shimmed the back of the scope .050 because I anticipated that the scope would run out of elevation adjustment before it could be held dead-on at the longer ranges I hoped to shoot it at. It turned out not to be necessary because even at 90 yards, the bolt sailed over the whole bale assembly. It was recovered but was bent badly due to impact with a tree. The shims came out. After four shots at 40 and 60 yards to get “on” the bales I moved to 90 yards and impacted below my aiming point. I then adjusted the scope to the bulls-eye and shot a four shot group with the four straight bolts I had remaining. The aiming point was a scrap of white paper. The first shot hit about 1 inch left of the paper, the second hit it, the third hit about 4 inches right and the final one, less than an inch right. The final 90-yard group was a horizontal string less than 5 inches across. Penetration was approximately 8 inches into frozen and practically new excelsior bales.

Even though these results surprised me, I felt this crossbow was actually capable of better accuracy. Conditions were not good with variable winds to at least 10 mph. Also, I wanted to straighten the bent bolt so I could shoot a 5 shot group.


In checking the bolts when I got home, I found that all but one were bent at least .005. I don’t know if they came that way or it was the result of impact and/or removal from the frozen bales, but I straightened them the best I could. Unfortunately, the bolt that hit the tree couldn’t be straightened sufficiently.

I returned to the range on March 25th. Conditions were better with light winds, temperature in the low 40’s and clear skies. With the aid of a laser rangefinder, I set my bench up (across the parking lot) exactly 100 yards from the farthest bale. I used a rifle bipod instead of sandbags to rest the stock and had adjusted the scope in the rings to avoid canting.

I took two shots to get me close to the bulls-eye, then put up a new target and shot the four almost-straight bolts. The four shot group measured just slightly less than 4 inches across. Because I prefer to shoot 5 shot groups for rifle testing, I pulled the bolts, returned to the bench and shot a fifth bolt. It hit within the holes from the previous four shots, so the 5 shot group at 100 yards measured less than 4 inches across, with 4 of the 5 shots hitting within a 3-inch circle.

With straight carbon bolts and perhaps some fine tuning of equipment, I don’t doubt that this could be improved upon, however, this level of long range accuracy exceeded my wildest expectations - and concerns.

I have never fired a crossbow before in my life. And now within 20 shots can group 5 bolts into 4 inches at 100 yards with a borrowed crossbow. I can say that I have owned some deer rifles in my life that haven’t grouped that well at 100 yards. However, because of a much greater trajectory curve for the bolt and longer time of flight, the rifle would still be superior unless wind was light and the exact distance was known. Which brings up an interesting point. Ten years ago this very same crossbow wouldn’t have been nearly as effective as a long range weapon because range estimation at that time was far less precise. However, with the development of technology completely unrelated to crossbows – laser rangefinders - this crossbow in conjunction with one becomes a bona fide 100-yard killing machine. It would only be a matter of laser ranging the target, dialing the elevation to that exact distance setting on a scope like the one that came with this crossbow, and then putting the crosshairs on the heart and pulling the trigger. The whole process takes just a few seconds. Pre-ranging distances and using a mil-dot scope would eliminate even that short time.

This is only one crossbow. I don’t doubt statements by others that have shot crossbows, particularly older models, that say they are not accurate at longer distances. However, this one is. And if this and other newer models have this potential, then everyone that can hunt with one has essentially the same potential; because accuracy is almost completely a function of mechanical action with no significant skill required.

One consideration that I can’t comment on is potential variations in accuracy using broadheads. I suspect, but can’t confirm until our sand bunkers thaw out, that given the substantially heavier projectile fired from a crossbow, especially with mechanical broadheads, projectile flight can be controlled.

I will leave it to those that read this to form their own opinions on the effect this type of weapon would have on a bow-only season, but there is no question that with widespread use, the effect would be significant, not only on the bow-only season itself, but also upon the harvest dynamics of all seasons for the species involved.


Mike Brust,
Wausau, WI"

You crack me up Art, I'm sure you seen this befor?
Not to mention that the Striker shoots a 425gr bolt at 405fps and double the KE (155ft lbs) of a modern day compound with a 30"/70 lb draw, and still has more energy at 100 yards than the same compound at 20 yards.

Hay, I was a regular member of PBS and the X Bow was the reason we parted ways, Back in the 80's they did not even want disabled people using one in the general bow season and I just could not see it. Now I see why, let the manufactures get their hand in your candy bag, and they try to steal the whole bag.

So that means that if placed on a rest of some sort, that a compound bow would still not be as capable of that accuracy......

This is getting ignorant..... I never , ever , placed the crossbow I shot on any type of rest - other than my hand as a support underneath..... Last time I checked, there were no wooden stools up in my climbing stand..... no hay bales either...... come on people, the lame arguments are showing your true bias......

I have used them, and there is nothing wrong with them..... and they have not harmed Arkansas Hunting in over 25 years...... get over it......

MET

Nope, I hadn't seen that before. Interesting.

But as to speed, what has driven the compound market for the past 20 years? PSE X-Force, Martin Slayer, Bowtech 82nd Airborne - those are just a few compounds that are claiming speeds up to 350 fps IBO. When they bump up that extra 50 fps and break 400 fps, how many do you reckon will holler they shouldn't be allowed in bow season? I'd bet they won't be able to keep 'em on the shelves.

I haven't shot a Stryker yet. Probably won't ever get a chance to. I can't see spending $1500 on a crossbow when I can get a nice Browning Citori shotgun for that kind of money. A few differences between it and my Vixen. It's 175 lbs draw, my Vixen is 150. It's got high performance cams, Vixen is a recurve. It's got a 17" power stroke, Vixen is 13.5". And it weighs over 10 pounds! Vixen weighs 6 lbs. And I don't need a winch to draw the Vixen.

I'm just saying your average green toothed redneck - the guy everyone seems to be terrified will be flooding the woods - isn't going to be waltzing out to the deer woods toting a Stryker. Going on safari in Africa, where you can hire someone to carry it for you and you need the punch, then yeah. They'd do well for that.

Well Michael since you and Art own and use one I would have to say your opinion is Bias.
If your stand does not have a shooting rail, I can send you a picture of me shooting one off of my knee, it's easy and much more accurate than free hand, almost as good as the prone.

I said I used to own one..... I no longer do, and I no longer hunt with one, and I haven't for years ..... So no sir I am not biased, but I am informed. And I'm not scared..... I look at reality, and the reality is that it has very , very little impact on the harvest numbers, and on the additional hunter numbers. In all my years, I have only seen 1 hunter with a crossbow..... other than myself, back when.

MET

when 1 person can produce 1 neagative to allowing crossbows in every general archery season for everyone I'll be shocked and amazed

until then, its elitism and selfishness, nothing more

As if your opinion isn't.

I used to have the same prejudicial bias you and others do until I was forced to try a crossbow or give up ARCHERY altogether. I quickly learned I was sadly mistaken about a great many things.

I shoulder a stock and I look through a scope, but at that point all similarities between crossbows and firearms end. I still have to make accurate yardage readings in order to hit what I aim at. With my muzzleloader, I sight in at 75 yards and don't have to worry about whether the animal is at 20, 50 or 80 yards. With my crossbow, I still have to know whether that deer is at 20 yards or 25 yards in order to put the arrow where I want it.

Yes, I said arrow. It's 20" long and that meets the legal minimum length requirement for arrows in Texas. My midieval crossbows and that old Barnett I've got both shoot bolts, IMO, because they are shorter than 20".

As for accuracy, since when is making an accurate shot a bad thing?

I was fairly indifferent about crossbows to begin with. I was more worried on how it would effect the hunting. After reading these reports, I am actually for crossbows if it will get more people into the sport.

I don't know about everywhere else, but hunting license in Louisiana are definately declining. Allowing crossbows during open archery season could very well help to solve this problem. (Doubtful, but one can dream.)

For the life of me, I’ll never understand wanting MORE hunters. I guess that’s the curse of growing up in PA. [&:]