Big Buck Barometer
07-02-2008, 10:27 PM
#111
Site Bouncer
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,099
RE: Big Buck Barometer
ORIGINAL: GregH
John,
It's nice that you have your own way of breaking down your hunting experience according to pre-teen, teen, adult, middle-age and senior years. I did not know that you were only talking about "adult" years of hunting. I too roamed the woods with my dad when I was 9. However, I count the years that I had my very own bowhunting liscense as years of bowhunting experience. So that would be 41 years of experience not 43.
John,
It's nice that you have your own way of breaking down your hunting experience according to pre-teen, teen, adult, middle-age and senior years. I did not know that you were only talking about "adult" years of hunting. I too roamed the woods with my dad when I was 9. However, I count the years that I had my very own bowhunting liscense as years of bowhunting experience. So that would be 41 years of experience not 43.
In the last 14 years of hunting Ill I did not shot a mature buck during 6 of the 14 seasons. Of those 6, there were some that I did see a P&Y caliber deer, I don't remember how many.
Good detective work, John. The "trophy heavy" area I was talking about was in my home town of Racine, Wi. I started hunting this area in the early '70s. At the time we were only rabbit and pheasant hunting because there weren't any deer around (at least that we knew of). We started seeing deer in the early '80s and I started hunting for them in 1983. Eight years later, in 1991, I shot my first P&Y.
You really shouldn't assume anything about my hunting, John, because you don't know. Well I'll tell you.... after the first P&Y in '91, I shot4 more P&Y class bucks in a row. Then my land was sold in '96. I had to find a new spot in Wi. In the mean time I had hunted Ill for the last 2 seasons. I bagged my first big one in Ill in '96 and mythird one in '01. Skunked in both states in '97 but doubled in '98, '03 and '04. 2004 was the last time I was able to hunt in my home county but have been hunting up north (where I want to move). So for the 3 seasons I have bow hunted Ill until successful and then went up north to hunt. So far I only got a 130" up there with my rifle. So my total is 8 with a bow in Wi and 8 with a bow in Ill and one with a rifle in wi. 17 total.
As you can see, my success is about equal in either state and have averaged taking a mature buck for each of the 17 seasons that I've been hunting them.
Good detective work, John. The "trophy heavy" area I was talking about was in my home town of Racine, Wi. I started hunting this area in the early '70s. At the time we were only rabbit and pheasant hunting because there weren't any deer around (at least that we knew of). We started seeing deer in the early '80s and I started hunting for them in 1983. Eight years later, in 1991, I shot my first P&Y.
You really shouldn't assume anything about my hunting, John, because you don't know. Well I'll tell you.... after the first P&Y in '91, I shot4 more P&Y class bucks in a row. Then my land was sold in '96. I had to find a new spot in Wi. In the mean time I had hunted Ill for the last 2 seasons. I bagged my first big one in Ill in '96 and mythird one in '01. Skunked in both states in '97 but doubled in '98, '03 and '04. 2004 was the last time I was able to hunt in my home county but have been hunting up north (where I want to move). So for the 3 seasons I have bow hunted Ill until successful and then went up north to hunt. So far I only got a 130" up there with my rifle. So my total is 8 with a bow in Wi and 8 with a bow in Ill and one with a rifle in wi. 17 total.
As you can see, my success is about equal in either state and have averaged taking a mature buck for each of the 17 seasons that I've been hunting them.
By my calculations that makes it about 11 P&Y or better deer (giveor take)in 14 seasons in Illinois......pretty good if you ask me.
Experience is necessary but not the only prerequesite for killing a P&Y. You're right John, you do have to hunt where they live (at least one of them).
I'm not about to say who is more skilled than myself anywhere, especially in other states. There are too many variables as to why I might have more inches of antler hanging on my walls. I would guess that the number one reason would be that I put in more time than most. Because if they were as skilled or more skilledthan I am, they'd certainly be hunting in a location where they had a reasonable chance of success.
John, calm down. Nobody is getting arrogant or elite. The point is, that their states do hold some numbers of these animals. If it is their goal to kill one of these animals in their home state, then they are going to have to find them.... it's called hunting.
It would be akin to asking you why you don't kill a 190in deer every year....after all there are "some" where you hunt aren't there?
It really does not ALL boil down to location. Location is only part of the equation, like it or not...... that's gospel. [:-]
07-03-2008, 03:28 AM
#112
Site Buck Guru
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Racine, Wisconsin
Posts: 5,922
RE: Big Buck Barometer
ORIGINAL: BigJ71
So......You saw 8 mature deer in 14 season and a handful of P&Y caliber deer in the 6 seasons that you didn't see or shoot a mature deer. Without knowing the exact number of P&Y deer in those 6 seasons, I can only assume that "some" means more than one so for the sake of debate I'll just divide it in half and say 3 P&Y deer in those 6 years.
By my calculations that makes it about 11 P&Y or better deer (giveor take)in 14 seasons in Illinois......pretty good if you ask me.
In the last 14 years of hunting Ill I did not shot a mature buck during 6 of the 14 seasons. Of those 6, there were some that I did see a P&Y caliber deer, I don't remember how many.
Good detective work, John. The "trophy heavy" area I was talking about was in my home town of Racine, Wi. I started hunting this area in the early '70s. At the time we were only rabbit and pheasant hunting because there weren't any deer around (at least that we knew of). We started seeing deer in the early '80s and I started hunting for them in 1983. Eight years later, in 1991, I shot my first P&Y.
You really shouldn't assume anything about my hunting, John, because you don't know. Well I'll tell you.... after the first P&Y in '91, I shot4 more P&Y class bucks in a row. Then my land was sold in '96. I had to find a new spot in Wi. In the mean time I had hunted Ill for the last 2 seasons. I bagged my first big one in Ill in '96 and mythird one in '01. Skunked in both states in '97 but doubled in '98, '03 and '04. 2004 was the last time I was able to hunt in my home county but have been hunting up north (where I want to move). So for the 3 seasons I have bow hunted Ill until successful and then went up north to hunt. So far I only got a 130" up there with my rifle. So my total is 8 with a bow in Wi and 8 with a bow in Ill and one with a rifle in wi. 17 total.
As you can see, my success is about equal in either state and have averaged taking a mature buck for each of the 17 seasons that I've been hunting them.
Good detective work, John. The "trophy heavy" area I was talking about was in my home town of Racine, Wi. I started hunting this area in the early '70s. At the time we were only rabbit and pheasant hunting because there weren't any deer around (at least that we knew of). We started seeing deer in the early '80s and I started hunting for them in 1983. Eight years later, in 1991, I shot my first P&Y.
You really shouldn't assume anything about my hunting, John, because you don't know. Well I'll tell you.... after the first P&Y in '91, I shot4 more P&Y class bucks in a row. Then my land was sold in '96. I had to find a new spot in Wi. In the mean time I had hunted Ill for the last 2 seasons. I bagged my first big one in Ill in '96 and mythird one in '01. Skunked in both states in '97 but doubled in '98, '03 and '04. 2004 was the last time I was able to hunt in my home county but have been hunting up north (where I want to move). So for the 3 seasons I have bow hunted Ill until successful and then went up north to hunt. So far I only got a 130" up there with my rifle. So my total is 8 with a bow in Wi and 8 with a bow in Ill and one with a rifle in wi. 17 total.
As you can see, my success is about equal in either state and have averaged taking a mature buck for each of the 17 seasons that I've been hunting them.
By my calculations that makes it about 11 P&Y or better deer (giveor take)in 14 seasons in Illinois......pretty good if you ask me.
You must have been satisfied on why I hadn't seen a mature buck for my first 8 seasons?
07-03-2008, 05:40 AM
#113
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Southwest PA
Posts: 1,244
RE: Big Buck Barometer
Go back to this acquaintance of mine. This is a guy who has never killed a deer over 120 in his entire life- he goes on a pay-hunt to Illinois and shoots an absolute freakshow buck 3 days later. What happened? Did he just wake up one day and learn the inner secrets to slaying monster bucks? Should I expect him to shoot a booner back here in PA next fall, now that he has learned these new-found skills?
Back to your original question, I think it all does come down to knowing your area and what it's capable of producing. I answered 110-125 because to me that's a big buck. Prior to 2004, I hunted for a buck. Anything with antlers was fair game. It wasn't until November 4, 2004 that my hunting world changed.
This guy showed up behind my house.
From this point forward, I stared paying attention and over the last few years, have found out my area can produce some extremely nice bucks and it has caused me to 'hold out' for something bigger. The more I watched, the more I realized the bigger bucks were in my area. Last year I took a 7 point that I may have passed on other years but it meant something to me. But I guess my point is, I've found a spot that produces big bucks (big bucks for my area) and that's what I am looking for.
When this piece of property turns into another industrial park or a housing development, and I stop crying, then ask me this question and it may all change.
Edited to add:
Now, let me add this as well. From 2004-2006, I was seeing any number of the bucks in that range I voted for. This was because the property was a natural funnel and the house that sat between the 2 areas was for sale and primarily vacant. Enter the summer of 2007 and a new neighbor moves in and uses the farm as her own personal stomping ground for her and her dog. The for-sale vacant house also was purchased and new people moved in. Now he is a bowhunter but he is also using the entire property and sudddenly, I'm not seeing the big bucks in my backyard like I was. Luckily they still hold up in my other property not 3/4 of a mile down the road but my point is, hunting behind my house for those first 3 years was great. Last season in 7 sits, I saw 1 deer.
07-03-2008, 07:07 AM
#114
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,469
RE: Big Buck Barometer
IMO a good representative deer for the area is not a "trophy". When i say that keep in mind that i hunt each year hunting for a good representative for my area, which is 110-115 inches. I shot a 100 inch 8 point this year and am thrilled that i killed him. In my mind he is a trophy. In the conversation that we are having right here on this thread though, my deer was not a trophy. The largest deer that i have killed was a 115 inch 6 point, he is the only deer on my wall and every time i look at him i get a warm feeling inside me and a huge smile comes to my face. He is a trophy for me, but IMO when compared to what is out there, he is not "trophy" status. In this thread, a trophy, top end deer, monster, whatever you want to call them are not behind every tree, hell they arent even on every property.
I agree with buckeye, a top end deer to me is one in the top 10% of the mature animals in a given area. Like i have mentioned in past posts, i never thought it was possible to shoot a P&Y deer in NJ, now i know its not only possible, but hunting the right locations and hunting smart, its a goal that can be accomplished almost yearly. That being said, i have never shot a p&Y, but have seen them and muffed up my chance last year.
Location certainly does play a large factor in killing larger deer. One property that i hunt is only a quarter of a mile from another. Both are great spots and i see and kill deer in each. The one spot simply holds more large deer. Part of hunting is finding these locations. Just cause you havent seen a p&Y caliber animal on your property doesnt mean they arent there, they might just not be using land that you have access too. Now dont get me wrong, by hunting out in the midwest, i certainly think you have a Hugeadvantage in killing a p&y than in NJ, Pa, Ny, Nc, Fl etc, but for us in these lesser known big buck states, lets not sell our states short. They are here, just look at the yearly buck contests and shows in the state.
I agree with buckeye, a top end deer to me is one in the top 10% of the mature animals in a given area. Like i have mentioned in past posts, i never thought it was possible to shoot a P&Y deer in NJ, now i know its not only possible, but hunting the right locations and hunting smart, its a goal that can be accomplished almost yearly. That being said, i have never shot a p&Y, but have seen them and muffed up my chance last year.
Location certainly does play a large factor in killing larger deer. One property that i hunt is only a quarter of a mile from another. Both are great spots and i see and kill deer in each. The one spot simply holds more large deer. Part of hunting is finding these locations. Just cause you havent seen a p&Y caliber animal on your property doesnt mean they arent there, they might just not be using land that you have access too. Now dont get me wrong, by hunting out in the midwest, i certainly think you have a Hugeadvantage in killing a p&y than in NJ, Pa, Ny, Nc, Fl etc, but for us in these lesser known big buck states, lets not sell our states short. They are here, just look at the yearly buck contests and shows in the state.
07-03-2008, 07:17 AM
#115
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location:
Posts: 21,043
RE: Big Buck Barometer
IMO a good representative deer for the area is not a "trophy".
I'm not disagreeing with your opinion, AT ALL.....just clarifying why I said what I did. You're opinion on this can't be wrong.
I shot a 100 inch 8 point this year and am thrilled that i killed him. In my mind he is a trophy.
In this thread, a trophy, top end deer, monster, whatever you want to call them are not behind every tree, hell they arent even on every property.
I agree with buckeye, a top end deer to me is one in the top 10% of the mature animals in a given area.
I agree with buckeye, a top end deer to me is one in the top 10% of the mature animals in a given area.
The one spot simply holds more large deer.
Just cause you havent seen a p&Y caliber animal on your property doesnt mean they arent there, they might just not be using land that you have access too.
Good post.
07-03-2008, 07:24 AM
#116
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Phoenixville, PA USA
Posts: 5,541
RE: Big Buck Barometer
Maybe I'm mistaken, but the original intent of this post wasn't to say that there are NO big deer in a given area, but to say that if someone was stating that they are holding out for a 150+ class deer in certain areas it is likely that they are kidding themselves.
I believe that statement is true. Also, what Duke said a few pages back is very true as well. You can't say, "Well your state does have big bucks, just look at the record books. You just have to look harder." It gets down to the land available to hunt. All the way down to property lines. Last year I had been glassing a bean field where I was seeing bucks ranging from 120" all the way up to pushing 150". The problem was the area was completely inaccessible to legal hunting. I can go to the Philly zoo and see a lion, but that doesn't mean I can hunt it. I know where a number of big bucks (none in the 150's, but some pushing 140")bed and travel very close to a property I hunt. The problem is there is no hunting allowed in their core area. Believe me, I have tried every conceivable way of ethically and legally trying to get access to the land and been denied. My only hope is that a doe will get hot and come onto the property I hunt and come by my stand while I am in it.
Point is, that sometimes even if they are there, that doesn't mean you can get them.
I believe that statement is true. Also, what Duke said a few pages back is very true as well. You can't say, "Well your state does have big bucks, just look at the record books. You just have to look harder." It gets down to the land available to hunt. All the way down to property lines. Last year I had been glassing a bean field where I was seeing bucks ranging from 120" all the way up to pushing 150". The problem was the area was completely inaccessible to legal hunting. I can go to the Philly zoo and see a lion, but that doesn't mean I can hunt it. I know where a number of big bucks (none in the 150's, but some pushing 140")bed and travel very close to a property I hunt. The problem is there is no hunting allowed in their core area. Believe me, I have tried every conceivable way of ethically and legally trying to get access to the land and been denied. My only hope is that a doe will get hot and come onto the property I hunt and come by my stand while I am in it.
Point is, that sometimes even if they are there, that doesn't mean you can get them.
07-03-2008, 07:28 AM
#117
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,469
RE: Big Buck Barometer
ORIGINAL: HuntingBry
Maybe I'm mistaken, but the original intent of this post wasn't to say that there are NO big deer in a given area, but to say that if someone was stating that they are holding out for a 150+ class deer in certain areas it is likely that they are kidding themselves.
I believe that statement is true. Also, what Duke said a few pages back is very true as well. You can't say, "Well your state does have big bucks, just look at the record books. You just have to look harder." It gets down to the land available to hunt. All the way down to property lines. Last year I had been glassing a bean field where I was seeing bucks ranging from 120" all the way up to pushing 150". The problem was the area was completely inaccessible to legal hunting. I can go to the Philly zoo and see a lion, but that doesn't mean I can hunt it. I know where a number of big bucks (none in the 150's, but some pushing 140")bed and travel very close to a property I hunt. The problem is there is no hunting allowed in their core area. Believe me, I have tried every conceivable way of ethically and legally trying to get access to the land and been denied. My only hope is that a doe will get hot and come onto the property I hunt and come by my stand while I am in it.
Point is, that sometimes even if they are there, that doesn't mean you can get them.
Maybe I'm mistaken, but the original intent of this post wasn't to say that there are NO big deer in a given area, but to say that if someone was stating that they are holding out for a 150+ class deer in certain areas it is likely that they are kidding themselves.
I believe that statement is true. Also, what Duke said a few pages back is very true as well. You can't say, "Well your state does have big bucks, just look at the record books. You just have to look harder." It gets down to the land available to hunt. All the way down to property lines. Last year I had been glassing a bean field where I was seeing bucks ranging from 120" all the way up to pushing 150". The problem was the area was completely inaccessible to legal hunting. I can go to the Philly zoo and see a lion, but that doesn't mean I can hunt it. I know where a number of big bucks (none in the 150's, but some pushing 140")bed and travel very close to a property I hunt. The problem is there is no hunting allowed in their core area. Believe me, I have tried every conceivable way of ethically and legally trying to get access to the land and been denied. My only hope is that a doe will get hot and come onto the property I hunt and come by my stand while I am in it.
Point is, that sometimes even if they are there, that doesn't mean you can get them.
07-03-2008, 07:42 AM
#118
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location:
Posts: 21,043
RE: Big Buck Barometer
nj.....I can take you to a spot within 5 mi. of my house .....and if we don't see a P&Y caliber deer in the evening, feeding.....I'd be disappointed.
NO ONE can hunt this area......and what a lot of us is saying is.....they shouldn't be considered a "legitimate" "top end" barometer for our area. That's all.
Bry's lion analogy was spot-on.
NO ONE can hunt this area......and what a lot of us is saying is.....they shouldn't be considered a "legitimate" "top end" barometer for our area. That's all.
Bry's lion analogy was spot-on.
07-03-2008, 07:57 AM
#120
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Southwest Ohio
Posts: 2,849
RE: Big Buck Barometer
This is kind of off from where the conversation is now headed but...
My father is quite honestly the absolute best hunter I know or have ever met. I could qualify that statement all day, but to save time I won't. I consider myself a darn good hunter. The last 5 years we have both hunted our farms (neighbors) with severe intensity. We take bucks from here that other guys don't believe are around...
With that said, I know there are bucks here bigger than what we see consistently. How do I know this? We found a buck skull (antlers dropped and we never found those). The buck has apparently died from an infection in his jaw as the bone was almost completely eaten away from the inside out. The teeth were all SMOOTH and warn down to almost nothing. I have never seen a buck this old on hoof or on a camera, yet he lived here, bred here, died here.
I don't care how good any of us are... they are better at survival than we are at hunting.
My father is quite honestly the absolute best hunter I know or have ever met. I could qualify that statement all day, but to save time I won't. I consider myself a darn good hunter. The last 5 years we have both hunted our farms (neighbors) with severe intensity. We take bucks from here that other guys don't believe are around...
With that said, I know there are bucks here bigger than what we see consistently. How do I know this? We found a buck skull (antlers dropped and we never found those). The buck has apparently died from an infection in his jaw as the bone was almost completely eaten away from the inside out. The teeth were all SMOOTH and warn down to almost nothing. I have never seen a buck this old on hoof or on a camera, yet he lived here, bred here, died here.
I don't care how good any of us are... they are better at survival than we are at hunting.