RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Krisken, I don' t disagree as I said earlier. You have mass, you have Kinetic, you have momentum and you get penetration; it works for you so use it.

The only place I disagree is the term " Speed is all you need! (?)" You need some combination of both mass and speed. So it is the term that is not correct.

I' d rather be hunting but a lively debate helps pass the time.

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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

I yield and stand corrected . . . Momentum and Kinetic Energy are not the same. I do apologize for the inaccuracy. I still believe that the term " Speed is all you need! (?) is not accutate though.

My physics book disappeared many years ago (around 39) and my math is as rusty as my logic. But I am studying a page that may support my ultimate conclusion on the values of momenta and kinetic energy.

The following website explains why Kinetic Energy gets my vote over Mpmentum. And it is kind of cute the way they describe it.

http://www.batesville.k12.in.us/Phys...TMomentum.html

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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Dick,

I did see that one...even almost posted it for you but decided not to.....the reason why you ask. I do disagree that a truck hitting you at even 1mph will not bowl you over. I do agree though that a meat ball traveling at that high of a speed could and probably will inflict some serious damage. However our arrows are traveling no where near that ball park figure in difference....not even in a different ball park on the same block! or even city.

Well look at it as a blade of grass. I can pick one up and throw it at you, what happens, notta.

I can take a tornado and get that little blade of grass moving at some serious speed and quite possibly zip it through you.

Its exactly the same thing as that web page. However the speeds needed to achieve this a huge! one mile per second quite possibly could do this.

I have also seem some other pages that prove this and if I remember right they start talking about weight and the speed of light. It is relevant to its mass also. The higher the mass the less fast it needs to achieve to out penetrate.

I did however find one that proves what I was saying that you need both. And that there is at some point a minimal return of having to much mass or to much speed and actually had a number to go buy after you figure you stuff out for your own personal set up. Saying that X was the best of both worlds, anything higher or lower atleast at an extreme is back into the minimal gains department. Let me look the dang thing up again.

Now for the kicker on that web page. Take a look at the extremes for in which they are. 1000 times difference in KE and an exact even on Momentum. Now let me ask, are the two bows you and I shoot 1000 times different on KE? How about Momentum are we even close? probably not. In the bowhunting relm, probably not even close. Even the super light arrows coming out of Kriskens 340 some fps compound are not traveling twice as fast as my longbow and he is shooting at the very very top of the speed realm as we know it today coming out of archery gear today (thats if he is shooting through a chrono and not guessing, not to mention one that is showing an accurate reading to begin with). The differences are hardly a mac truck and a meat ball taveling at one Mile per Second! More to the tune of a knuckle ball and a fast ball in the major league. Or a wrist shot vs a one timer in the NHL. The problem is we are both not shooting exactly the same in mass so we have no constant!

I' ll dig up that web page here in a bit.....gotta get more arrows sealed.....

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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Krisken

Actually, a man was killed by being hit in a fast pitch softball game, it was in the news in 2002. I remember it because I too play softball and thought it unusal.

As to the topic, does speed kill? Hell yes it kills. Is it imperative to MOST hunting situations, deer or elk, Hell no! elknut1.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

The differences between truck and meatball analogy and our arrows would be relative and I would think directly proportional.

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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Dick,

Keep lookin at those momentum and Ke web pages you are pulling up.....you' ll find it eventually!

The factor is speed, Get enough of it and anything can be lethal, think I have proved that in my last post. You cant however compare even the fastest arrow going a humbly 345fps to something traveling 1 miler PER SECOND. Speed is however relative to the mass it carrys.

Everything is relative in its own right.....if you need some big drawn out equation, I have them! I however dont feel the need to confuze the people who may actually gain something from this.[&:] I do agree, you have to have weight....the real question is how much weight per how much speed is considered " acceptable" for the game you are hunting with the set up you are shooting (arrows, bheads, conditions of the hunt etc). These are questions only you can answer as each situation and style of bowHunter is different. The way we look at things is different, and quite frankly the outcome is vastly different. I am amazed at anyone shootin fixed blade heads at whitetails not getting complete penetration on a perfect hit.....it doesnt always happen. I am amazed also at a none complete penetration by the modern compound shooters when hitting 1 or both shoulder blades. Its obvious there are things at play that folks dont understand. There are two sides to the coin, without either, you have a defaced coin. In the penetration scheme, as you say one without the other is worthless as your KE figure is still 0. You are atleast right there.

The one problem with formulas is we can find other formulas that can and will give different results in the KE vs Mom scheme. Its not as simple as to every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. Hopefully you find the answer you are looking for..... Not to mention the constant with them in this type of industry...human error. The only way to get rid of it is with a shooting machine....but dang we have other factors we need to look at....does it end? Heck most dont even care to understand it. To each there own. But when they get that perfect hit with 3" es of penetration, atleast you and I will know why.

I will however tell you this. Stay away from the archery or bowhunting critics if you will. We all have our own beliefs. Some of which are closer to real life then others. And some of us can prove that time and time again (btw, have you ever heard of a easton 2440? Damn they are heavy [>:]) I will tell you a trip to your local physics department at a college who has no opinion either way on bowhunting would give you some great results. Being they dont understand the total penetration scheme you would either have to edumacate them or realize there are other factors at play then just KE, MOM, or even the combination of the two, which is atleast closer to reality then the bowhunting industry would lead you to believe.

I have never weighed a base ball to a soft ball. I do know they are pretty compareable. One other factor you need to consider is surface area. Hit something in one small spot, go figure its going to do more damage, then hitting something 2 or three times as big, all else being equal. The energy at hand will be focused all at one small area. It takes a genious to see that...not! Quite frankly I would rather not be hit by either lol.


This hockey game is getting good..I' ll be back!