antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Last year was the first year for antler restrictions in the state of Pa. For most the restriction was 6 points to a side and for the rest of us it was 8 points to a side. Are large racks THE most important aspect of deer hunting?

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

I need to amend the thread. For most it was 3 points to a side and for the rest of us it was four points to a side. Sorry.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Being a PA resident I feel that Alt made a great decision by making an antler restriction. Not only will it strengthen our deer herd but create healthier and larger bucks.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

No large racks are not the only thing important, they are important though:)

GA has a 2 buck limit and now one of the 2 must have 4pts on one side or more. Many counties in GA also have antler restrictions above and beyond that regulation as part of the overall management of the GA herd.

For many years before the regs were in place, we (on lands I hunt) have limited ourselves on the size of bucks taken. Remember that this not only helps protect the younger bucks, but it causes more people to take does instead of young bucks, which in turn helps produce a healthier, more balanced herd.

Good move for PA.

Jim

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Well put huntingga!
This would seem to help take more Does! Me, I would want a bigger racked buck to shoot anyway! If I was hunting for meat I think I' d rather shoot a Doe! I feel most on here police themselves anyway![:-] If memory serves me correct while growing up in Michigan there was a Limit, above the ears or like 4" , don' t quote me though, that was a LONG time ago!

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

I' m also from PA and also think the antler restriction was a good thing and also combining both buck and doe season,more hunters are takeing more doe and makeing for a more balanced buck to doe ratio and letting the bucks to grow bigger for next season.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

How long are the restrictions supposed to last? That would make a difference in how I felt about it in my region.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Thanks for the input! The antler restrictions are to be a way of life until further notice but I don' t see them ever going back. It is extremely difficult to count points, I passed on 3 bucks inside bow range because I couldn' t tell if they were legal or not and passed on a 3x2 and a 2x2.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

You guys from PA are pretty lucky...Michigan has the same restrictions as Georgia and it really makes no difference. In the norhter tip of the mit where I hunt you don' t see deer get big enough for the restriction to have any effect. Just think though PA residents, the season after next you will be seeing the rather large effects of the antler restriction.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

If they planned to keep with and it WERE ' the way it' s done' where I was out, I' d be for it. But if they were just instituting it here and there for a year or 2 I' d think of it as just an inconvenience.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

I hunt not only for the sport but also for the meat. Where I hunt we have whats called earn a Buck. You have to shoot a Doe before you can shoot a Buck W/3pts or Better on One side. This year I had some nice 6 & 8 pointers (one would have gone on the wall) under my tree browsing for a half hour. I couldn' t shoot cause I hadn' t taken my doe yet. I seen no less than 20 Different Bucks Before I finally got the Doe.it Took about 3 weeks and 3 days before the season changed from reg Bow season to Permit Bow season.No shooters for wed. thur.and fri. Then the season changed on Sat. and Here comes the Bucks But first I have to start over again and get the Doe first. Sometimes it just isn' t right.But thats Life.I talked this over with the game warden and he said this was to get hunters to shoot a doe first then the buck so the harvest would be 2 deer instead of just the 1 buck and stop. I told him I would be glad to harvest the Buck first and a doe latter for the 2 kill harvest and he said most hunters are just satisfied with the one deer.(Unlimited Does) I guess my appetite is bigger than theirs. Many of us Hunters complained about this to the Fish Game &Wildlife and he said there going to change the rules this year. We' ll See. Good Luck & Good Hunting

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Ar went to a 3 point rule a few years ago. the deer has to have 3 points on one side. I wish they had done that years ago. the definition of a legal buck is: a legal buck has to have at least 3 points on one side, or antlers 2" or shorter. that' s a little confusing to me![8D]

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Here in Massachusetts, you' d better take just about the 1st deer you see. The numbers just aren' t there for this type of hunting. The hunters in MASS want to see deer numbers, not particularly big antlered deer. My personal opinion is that if you' re so concerned about " monster" bucks, then spend the money and go hunt on a ranch that has restrictions as to what size deer you can shoot. Many people here in MASS only have one day off a week and we can' t hunt on Sundays, so I really don' t think it' s the state' s job to decide how big a deer you can take. I think it should be the hunter himself/herself that decides what is a shooter deer to them.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

quite frankly its a joke!

Is the state working QAM or QDM, I know the answer do YOU! [:' (]

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

There should be antler restrictions on just about every state. If you are hunting ' just for meat' , then shoot a doe, and give that 4 pointer an extra year in order to make someones' dream come true to bag a trophy deer in the next 1-2 years.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

It may not work in PA for numerous reasons. The biggest reason being shear number of hunters.

Is it a sound management practice, considering PA`s situation? YES

What I am getting at, Lilhunter, is that it may not work in PA, but it is right.
I disagree when you say you know the answer. I know you don`t have any sound facts to prove your point.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Answer me this, what does ones antler size play in the health of a deer.....not a dang thing ! Its numbers that people are more interested in and one need not look further then posts on this thread to see that. P&Y this, B&C that for what this hole QAM has started and quite frankly its a dang shame! (notice i DID NOT say Quality DEER Managment, there is a huge difference!) Sure we all have dreams of ole mossy horns and making these dreams come true for yourself ya it would be a nice thing, but in all reality this QAM is not what the wildlife departments should be worrying about. Antler size, horn size/length, skull size etc etc. Its health and numbers period! If you want big racks, grow them on your own leased or private property but dont judge what I may be able to shoot on the back 40!

Dont get me wrong, seeing big bucks is a nice thing. I dont however have the need/desire to allow the state to manage solely for the size of ones headgear.... I have and do shoot does when the situation presents itself. I will also shoot a good size spike if the situation so presents itself. Heck I shot a nice 4pointer that even the game biolgist said never had the genes to be much biggerhigh 150' s filed dressed is what the biologist guessed his weight during registration, not bad for a " small" buck. Did I regret shooting him, nope. Would I do it again, Yup. Do I care what he scores, quite frankly I could care less! one either sex tag, one doe tag, the buck was just the first to walk by (at 5 steps mind you while sitting on the ground, try and pull that one off in wide open country). If I was worried about size you' d see my name in the Dall sheep catagory in the mid 20th standing but you never will! Actually you' d see it twice as my first ram would just barely qualify. But in my opinion the " book" does not stand for what it used to when St. Charles started it back in 58. He will say so himself if you take the time to listen.

btw, you might be a lil more surpised about who I am then just referring to my handle ;) Its that hole dont judge a book by its cover deal but I wont insult your intelligence there [>:]

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

btw, for the record you never did state just WHY its right........humor me, better yet, convince me!

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

OK, I am lost? I don`t see in my post where I was judging you by your username?
I was not judging you at all.
I simply disagree with you asserting that AR is not a viable QDM tool.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

bummer I was editing while you posted this


You see you are already a slightly mis guided sole on this " QDM" program.

its not Quality DEER Management that was instituded at all! This is where the average sole looking at the antler/horn restrictions of any state has gone astray. There are in some cases viable reasons for it. In whitetails, I dont see it.

btw, you never did give me an answer.....convince me this is such a good thing other then you' d like to see yourself with some beautiful heavy tall and wide 10 pointer that you or your hunting camp may never have seen otherwise...

and I should add

sure sounds like passing judgement to me.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Let me try this without cut and paste.
1. I readily admit that I do not hold vast amounts of knowledge in the field of QDM.

That said, this AR system in PA makes sense to me because it will allow bucks to grow.
It will not get all the big bucks killed. The few that are already big have aquired some degree of intelligence in the field of survival.
As bucks get more mature(older) the dominant ones will do the majority of the breeding.(this is assuming that we also bring the doe population down to a closer buck/doe ratio.

The dominant(stronger,healthier) bucks I would assume would sire bigger, stronger, healthier fawns.

One thing I do know is that does pick which bucks will breed them. If there are dominant bucks available, they will get the job.
This has been told to me by people that make their livelyhood with whitetails.
I have also seen many things in my bowhunting that would lead me to believe this is infact true.

You have to be patient here, I have been awake all night, so I am not real sharp just now, plus I am at work, so I am occasionally distracted.

As far as me hoping to see some high, heavy, wide 10 pointers....I got a wall of them now. (not real wide, but I got the real heavy, and real tall covered.)

Guess I am gonna cut and paste anyhow...


You say:sure sounds like passing judgement to me.

Well, I can agree that it could be taken that way, but that it not how it was meant.

I will say that I cannot fathom how you know it is not QDM.
It has never been tried in this state before, so it is impossible for me to say that it WILL work. How can you say that it won`t.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

I think AR' s are a good thing. PA is doing the right thing. It' s not about QAM...it' s QDM. They aren' t worried about growing monster bucks...just improving the herd overall. Letting the majority of the 1.5 year old bucks go, and taking does instead. The buck doe ratio is way off...and PA hunters hammered the buck population every year...while hardly shooting any does(in comparison). The idea behind the AR' s will allow some of the bucks that would have gotten killed to live, and alot more of the does to be taken. They should have done it a long time ago. In a few years...the results will show....better herd health, better buck/doe ratio, and less deer (which they definitely need). And yes...there will be some dandy bucks running around, which is a plus....but NOT the goal.
I wish they would do it where I hunt. I also think the earn a buck program is a good one too...I' d support that also.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

This may help some understand the basic need for a healthy herd in any state. W/O taking an adequate amount of antlerless deer the entire herd feel the pain.

Read on and feel free to take a look at www.QDMA.com for more info than most of us can spout in a day. Yes this can and will help produce trophy class animals. However if your goal is to actually help the habitat and the herd along with the possibility of taking a larger, older deer, take a look.


http://www.qdma.com/Why_Qdma/detail.asp?ID=6

Jim

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

WV Hunter - Excellent grasp of the big picture. Ditto to everything you said.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

I am 100 percent in ageement with LilHunter on this one...Antler Growth has ABSOLUTLY nothing to do with with the over all health of a deer, it only indicates diet and genetics. Its this emphasis on antlers and size thats imposing the the biggest buck $ for the biggest Buck mentality in our sport.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

No worries Bc, we kinda got mixed in the posting times lol.


Some basic knowledge, you want less animals shoot more. It shouldnt matter if they are 1 yr olds or 8 yr olds. Putting antler restrictions does not accomplish this.

I agree most states have to many deer. By handing out and either sex tag and numorus doe tags, the does will be shot, the either sex tag will be saved for a buck or later in the season used for a doe. The shooting a doe before a buck maybe harvested is also a good ploy, but having antler restrictions is nothing more then a ploy to grow bigger antlers period! And when you look at the scheme of Quality DEER Management, Antlers have NOTHING to do with it.

Those same does will breed regardless. THey dont walk around saying sorry charly your spread aint wide enough for us to mate. Lets get a little more real here. The main goal of them is to survive and procreate the species. In which in recent times they have done both very well.

So plain and simple, you want less deer shoot more! You want bigger antlers, start practicing QAM on your own land and leave my back 40 alone!

Forgot to add,

Wv, finally a post that resembles deer management not Antler management! Atleast one person is more worried about the deer and not the numbers...

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

I still believe that does choose dominant bucks to breed them, if possible. I have seen smaller bucks run does for hours, then a big buck comes in and the doe stands for him.

Someone else just started a thread inquiring about Kirschners deer lure. I know Bob very well. I have seen this in his deer pens as well.

Back to the PA situation. If the PGC numbers are anywhere near correct, we have way too many deer in SOME parts of the state. I know in the SW portion of PA, where I live and have bowhunted for 30 years, this is definately the case. We have way too many deer. From the late 70`s through the late 80`s I can honestly say that I never saw a spike buck in the farm country where I live and hunt. And we had enough deer. Now we have at least double the amount of deer as back then, and I see spikes and 3, 4, 5 points on a regular basis.

When I say that I never saw spikes in the past, I will add that during this timeframe I was very successfully self employed, and hunted literally every single day of the season.

Do I want to see JUMBO bucks, you bet! But if I thought it would come at the cost of a healthy herd, then I would gladly do without.

We obviously have differing thoughts on PA`s current attempt at herd management, and for the sake of the herd, I hope I am right.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

As you may or may not be able to tell I am not yet convinced whether it is qam or qdm. I will say that in the presentations by the pgc they stated that it is desirable for the older bucks to breed to strengthen the gene pool. Do the genes change? Doesn' t the 10 point have the same genes that he had as a spike? I am truly selfish in that I want the absolute best hunting that I can get, I am also satisfyed with the 4 point or as was the case two years ago a 3 point. I also think that it is incorrect to say ar will ' improve the deer herd' I definately believe it will improve rack size both physically and numerically. The steaks, chops, roasts and sausage of the 3 point was just fine, it didn' t need improvement.

Thanks for the comments and arguments both pro and con.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Yes, a big, mature buck still has the same genes as he did as a pup, but IF it is true that in a decently balanced ratio herd that mature bucks do the vast majority of the breeding, then that genetically strong buck won`t get a chance to breed as a yearling.


I am not a biologist, but I did stay at a holiday in express last night!;)

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Here in the north eastern part of Arkansas Game and Fish done two things that seem to have helped. They put the antler restriction on and included a doe season with the shotgun season. Now guys who would wait on that spike buck will take the first doe that walks by. That in itself has saved countless bucks. That started only 2 years ago. Ive seen more BIG DEER this year than ever before. In the field and at the check station. Im all for it. But I do not consider myself an antler hunter. For one Im just not that good yet. I will usually take the first legal deer I see. This year that was a good thing because it was the only one I had in range (I could list countless excuses). :) These two things combined will greatly increase our chances of getting a nice buck in range just because more of them will make through the dredded gun season.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

They tried this in Oregon in the steens mountains for several years. 4 point or better [western count] it seemed that alot of big 3 points were shot and the hunting really wasnt that much better. Some of our elk hunts have a cow or 3 point or better rule. I am not too proud to take a doe or a cow.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

No, large racks are not the most important aspect of hunting. Developement and participation of our youth in bowhunting is very important. My son has taken two deer, his first one was a spike buck and the second was a doe. It took him two years of hunting to take his first deer. I was very proud of him and his efforts that it took to take those deer.
In my opinion, for new hunters, especially young hunters, it is very discouraging to hunt year after year and not take a deer. That spike buck got my son involved and excited about hunting. I remember being in his shoes (hunting boots).
Dont get me wrong, I like seeing big bucks and have taken my fare share of them.
As for me, as I have become older, I have imposed my own restriction. I let the smaller bucks walk in hopes that they will become a shooter. I do take does for meat and because there are so many of them. But, I have no problem with my son taking a small buck that I let walk. At least he is hunting and being involved in this great sport.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

I think what Pa, Ar & other states are doing with restrictions are good ideas. Here in WV there aren' t any, it' s pretty much up to the hunter. In WV we are allowed to take too many bucks in the first place, it' s turned into a $$$$ thing with the extra tags you can purchase. As long as the insurance companies & farm groups have there say in WV you won' t see any restrictions either. They want numbers.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

The point restrictions wouldn' t make much difference to me because I have a self-imposed buck restriction of 8 points or better. I passed up numerous bucks of 6 points or less this year--most of which were under 10 yards away broadside and relaxed with nothing in between. Since nothing met my standards, I let them all pass and ended the season with 2 does and a button buck I thought was a doe.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

I think the key is getting more hunters to take does. I say offer cheaper and more doe tags if you want to balance the herd. The only think I see ar' s as doing is increasing the size of a bucks antlers.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

I have been a pennsylvania hunter for 22 years and I feel that the antler restrictions this past season were great. It' s not just about getting big antlers but our buck to doe ratio is terrible. In the past once deer season was over very few and I mean very few bucks survived to grow for next year. This year I noticed that in our rifle season we would put on small deer drives and for the whole two weeks we saw bucks, alot of bucks that would have all been taken without antler restrictions. In January and February I have been seeing bucks and that has never happened before. I never understood why taking a small spike buck was any better than taking a big doe. In my opinion the doe is better eating then the buck anyway. I sure that every part of Pa is different but here in northeast Pa the hunting pressure is very high and without restrictions all the bucks are being harvested. I heard several people say that they had to let a buck pass because they could not tell if it had enough points. I think that makes the hunting even more of a challenge not to mention alot safer and ethical then people just shooting at running deer because they see any size horns.. Just my 2 cents worth...

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Deer management is made of many things but one goal is to keep buck to doe ratios in line, which is take does obviously. Another key part is to manage the buck maturity level...it does have QAM or TBM benefits, but ultimately it is to stregthen the herd. Yes a trophy spike will have the genetics but how do you know what is a trophy and what is cull in spike stage, etc? I have yet to be able to tell what 1 1/2 will be a hawg and which one will not...can any of you? The problem with harvesting anything with bone is, the young are most vunerable (so they are harvested in higher numbers), the mature will always be targeted and pressured by self imposed-restriction hunters (everybody else to boot) and the old will die or non factor. Pressure, stress and lack of food cause mortality in mature bucks post breeding, one way to ensure adequate numbers & ratio is to have the next ones alive and strong (protected). The pay off is more 2 1/2 year olds, potential if TBM or QAM is your thing is more evident, equal opportunity, stronger herds and more relief for the matures (as well more replacements that will fight for the right to breed of those who died or were harvested). I have heard hunters who are so proud just to shoot a buck...horns don' t matter...but if he' s got nuts then " I' m a hunter" , why not shoot a doe. Can you tell me why you think harvesting a young, immature buck is necessary? Is it just because you don' t like to be told what to harvest, is it you don' t like the trophy hunters...what? It(harvesting does) is as good meat, close to the same amount of meat,is doing yourself and your kids a favour.

I do understand the point that somebody mentiond earlier about youth or first timers. But with the ample doe limits and population available, that void can be filled. If they grow up with a AR rule, I doubt they will fight with it, it is the ones who never had the rules that bark the loudest. Are their not other aspects to this sport beside the notching of the tag? ( I bet if you pool most avid hunters the actual harvest isn' t at the top of the list) I for one thing it is good to teach the aspect of patience and knowing what you are shooting at, if you have to count points to ensure legal...does it not make for more ethical, thought out shots (not so much panic shots, etc.)

BTW,To me all harvests should be treated with joy and great accomplishments.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

I' m not in favor of antler restrictions.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

skeet,

your points are valid, but you still go back to antlers and age!

A doe is just as much of a trophy as my ram bar none! the feeling isnt any different. The meat, although may taste different is still the finest table fare out there compared to what most kids are eating for lunch (gasp).

We talk strength in the heard, or I should say having a healthy herd.

Do you think that just because there are not a ton of 2 1/2 yr old deer running around the herd is not healthy?

I ask if this is so why are the numbers such a problem today.

Right now, as we speak on the grounds of the spring of 2003, a good handful of the states are overrun with deer, both rural and urban areas. Its not health, its not age, its pure and simple numbers...the hole famn dang thing! Plain and simple, shoot more deer! Its either that or institute your AR' s but when you ask the majority the main reason they want it, it all boils down to one thing, seeing and possibly shooting more mature bucks. It has nothing to do with health. Folks dreaming of a 5000 acre ranch in Tx and trying to turn the hole state into it. Again, its a sad to see fish and game do this.

I am sure we all are familiar with " slot limits" . You know fishing, one over a certain number, up to x amount within a high and low number, and nothing under x.

If we as deer hunters are so worried about health, we would let the hosses run. They are the genetically strong. But no, these are what ALL folks dream of getting. Meat hunter or not I know of none (I am sure there is a couple that my stick to this but when the chips are down and mr 200pt P&Y is standing broadside quartering away 15 yards, I bet 99.8% fire!) Are they meat hunters, quite frankly, who isnt!

Did you know at one point in time, elephants with tusks over 40 pounds were not allowed to be shot due to the the thought of a producing a healthy heard.

I can humor you with more in many different species of this same or very similar Antler Restriciton " THEORY" which so far has in my opinion only proved RIGHT in ONE case....SHEEP!

and last but not least I ask you all this...

Minus CWD of course, how are your deer herds, I bet 85% of the states with whitetails will say over run, habitat distruction etc etc. Are you willing to encounter more disease and more problems (ie WI insurance companys ready to sue F&G for not managing the herds properly, and do you think it will end there? and or seeing, or knowing folks dying, possible serious injury, or as most of us have seen or know of major damage in many forms due to TO MANY ANIMALS?) Just for the sake of having more 6 pointers plus running around the woods to have a " HEALTHY" herd?

I am and always will be in favor of sound fish and wildlife practices, I have yet to see anything sound in this!!!

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Just acouple of additional notes....

This may not be the best method to achieve the desired results in PA, but it is a valid attempt.
I would be interested in seeing the method that New Jersey has implemented...earn a buck. You must harvest a doe to get a buck tag.


Also, our youth hunters in PA do not have to follow the new program, they may still harvest bucks under the old regs. One spike at least 3" in length.