RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

now your going in the right direction Bc! I dont like the program but its worlds better then the AR' s!

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

I`ll give ya one thing, lilhunter, when you grab a bone, you don`t let go.:D

Don`t get me wrong, I respect that. Even if I think your wrong, at least you don`t roll over.


I have been trying real hard to avoid asking you this, but I can`t hold it in any longer.....

It is obvious from reading your posts for some time now that you are an accomplished hunter.
That being said.....why would you be satisfied shooting an immature buck, when you could hold out for a possible chance at a trophy, a worthy adversary, so to speak.
If you need vittles, there are plenty of does out there.


Now remember, before you answer, this is directed to you, not a young hunter, or a new hunter who does not have several harvests to their credit.

And, any hunter who has really done a lot of bowhunting for whitetails knows that the old legend of how a mature doe is the hardest to kill, is just that, a legend.

I can pile up old does and young bucks until I cannot afford any more arrows! And so could you.

No animosity here, just a legitimate question.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Bc, you are not the first one to tell me I am hard headed lol. Probably the nicerly (there' s a word for ya) put in my lifetime :)

First off, define trophy. For you its one thing, for me its another. Whatever I shoot is a trophy, just getting out is a trophy. FOR ME. Not to mention I am quite satisfied with even a remote opportunity of shooting game regardless of size. (I however dont advocate shooting animals of the year regardless if they can survive or not)

I have an either sex tag, 1, and 4 antlerless tags. You bet I am going to fill them antlerless first. But I have also learned to not pass when the opportunity presents itself (back to what we both think is considered trophy value). Shooting a cagey whitetail at 5 steps, sitting crosslegged on the edge of an open field, trophy is making it to full draw and pulling off a heart shot resulting in a quick clean kill (and a massive blood trail as I have ever seen with a 2 blade bh). If there is a big rack or not, thats fine with me, you' ll see the pearly whites either way! (or the devil eatin grin as my buddy calls it [>:])

I have absolutly no hard feelings to anyone posting on this subject....

I am also not set in my ways as I am more the willing to change and help change for the better of fish and wildlife when I feel it will benefit the fish or game at hand. I however see to much, as I have heard it called " arm chair" biologists out there and laws coming into effect from these findings. Many of which is maniupulated or I should say stipulated by hunters themselves and not nessicarly for a good cause.

In the long run I see it doing nothing more the limiting the number of folks who can get the chance to harvest there trophy whatever it maybe for the sake of seeing " more and bigger bucks" and in the long run it almost always comes down this (more and bigger bucks) when it comes to Ar' s alone.

Last but not least, you say we both can pile both young bucks and does untill we cant afford more arrows. I agree, but I.... like you, dont and I think we both know why. [:-]

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

I wish they' d bring restrictions to Minnesota. We would really start seeing some brutes!

Good Luck!

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

heck Cloud 9, you got brutes!!! Silver bay ring a bell, go shed hunting up there, some of the sheds/winter kills we have found. Not to mention some great bucks closer to the cities (or in on some hunts) produce HUGE bucks. Its a shame to see the truely brutes on those hunts being poached though but thats a different story all together.....

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Lilhunter, I agree population numbers are high but that does not equate to a healthy herd in any Deer Management plan. More deer, less habitat/food, more nusiance complaints...the list goes on. The way to eliminate a herd can be done by taking all comers (any deer) but for sustained survival and overall herd management long term, the answer is more doe permits. Bucks will be killed every year by hunters, maybe not all but to prevent over population you must keep the moms to a sustained level. While the same can be said by eliminating bucks to reduce breeders, you would end up with not only an unbalanced herd, but a poor health of a herd. With high numbers the only way to ensure long term health is limit the male harvest and increase the female. To prove this point think back to the years of Taboo on harvesting does, if the doe wouldn' t have been protected the numbers would not be nearly as high. Another thing to blame is our need for urbanization, we have forced deer closer together by limiting their habitat, in effect creating more deer, high number of does breed each year.

I do 100% believe in letting immature bucks try and reach some level of maturity. How can the hunter judge maturity on a spike deer? Without checking teeth, I know of no real way. Just because you allow a deer to reach a level of maturity in no way does that promote antlers or trophies, the level I am referiing to is 2 1/2 year old deer that would on average if any decent genetics(food source) would meet your min requirements of 3 or 4 points. Some may not and in most cases those deer will not carry the genes to produce trophies...if all I wanted was rack they would be up on the chopping block. The point I am making is that reducing not only the stress of hunting pressure, but breeding pressure on your mature (Trophy) quality deer will in fact give you more gaurantees on long term health of the herd. I realize not every buck can reach trophy or 5-7 years old, nor am I saying that you should restrict harvest to only those animals. But allowing the younger ones to mature is not a bad thing and it does have long term impacts. If your DNR were looking for a short term solution, it would be open the flood gates...but then in a couple years you' d all be mad about not seeing the numbers or quality. Simply put you can' t have it both ways.

Interesting you brought up fishing management. The reason for slot limits is to protect the females fish, not males. Anybody that is a fisherman should know, knows the males are the slot sized fish. Females are the large ones. If you agree with the princples of fish management, C&R, slot size...this should make sense. All in all it is to create a healthier, better opportunity & still keeping some level of management on the population.

BTW, I indicated just what you said any harvest should be viewed as a sense of accomplishment(trophy). Also you' ll notice I stated why would you choose to harvest a small buck over a doe, so I agree. As you can probably tell, I am by choice a trophy hunter. I don' t expect anybody to agree with my desicion or even care if anybody does. I also don' t expect anybody to jump on my wagon. I do it because it adds an extra element for me!!!!! I also take every doe that is allowed legally. I do all that I can to help educate young hunters and new hunters, as well as old hunters. I truly believe that we have a responsibilty to be deer managers, as well as hunters. In many cases hunters know the score well before the DNR do or at least can act. The difference is those who act and those who just sit on it. Evrybody has their own right to choice and opinions, I respect what you' ve all said and agree with many of your points. I only hope you can see something in what I have said other than horns!!!!

Take Care and good hunting!!!

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Part of the reason for implementing ar in pa. was to increase the number of does harvested and in doing so to balance the herd. I have no objection to harvesting a doe and with a bow would find it to be a trophy in every sense of the word. This past year was my third archery year and I have harvested two deer that were coincidently both bucks. I am 59 years old but was gone from pa. for military service and then stayed in ca. for career reasons. I have recently retired back here after retiring for health reasons. I say all of this to explain that a 15 year old is not the only one with 3 years experience. I find that having a buck come to the grunt tube and or the rattling is a trophy. I do wonder if man, in all of his intelligence, can adequately mess with all aspects of nature and improve it. I also think,for what it is worth, this is the reason that many hunters go to preserves and canned hunts is to harvest that ' monster' of a lifetime. I know from rifle hunting prior to military service that even in high school harvesting a doe was like getting a consolation prize; you got more sympathy than congratulations.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

All creatures are meant to reach maturity, right? Is it healthy for your 12 year old son or daughter to have children? He/she may be sexaully mature, but that doesn' t mean he/she' s ready for the world. The same applies to deer, rabbits, etc. If all the young bucks are breeding the does then you' re saying that' s perfectly fine and healthly?!?! That 18 month old deer is not mature at all other than sexually. He/she has a lot to learn to learn about survival. There' s a pecking order to follow....that young buck should not be able to breed at will simply because his hormones are raging! There' s a reason mature healthy bucks are supposed to do most of the breeding.....bigger, stronger, faster!!

The herd here in PA is way out of balance and the young bucks have almost free reign over the woods. The ratio' s are out of whack.....how do you propose we realign the ratio? Antler restrictions help bucks live longer. Does need to be taken. PA is in this situation because of 70+ years of " don' t shoot the doe" and habitat destruction.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

I' m jealous of you guys in PA. Last year was my 10th season hunting in PA. Although the first year of the restrictions, our camp still met it' s anual buck harvest %, with 7 bucks for 14 hunters. I personally passed up 5 bucks before I shot the 6th one.

Some day when MI grows up, we hope to be like PA!!:)

The AR' s in PA are designed to protect 80% of the yearling class. It has been proven that rack size is not indicitive of the quality of yearling bucks, so by protecting 80% of the yearling class, many quality animals are protected. It has been proven that by just increasing the average age of bucks just 1 year, it has a great effect on the overall health of the herd. Less stress on small yearling bucks, less chaotic breeding, less stress on does, more conserved energy for wintertime, and improved natural selection, are all some of the benifits. These are proven facts.

Another aspect of QDM that is being used in PA is the overall reduced herd size. Over the past 5 years we have seen our average weight by age class increase by 10 to 20%, as the number of total deer were reduced. At the same time, the amount of rutting activity has increased substantially, with scrapes and rubs becoming much more frequent.

The AR' s are no different than the 50" moose minimums in AK, or the AR' s on elk out west. It' s all designed to broaden the age class.

Can' t wait for next years hunt in PA!

Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
Protection of yearling bucks + Populations maintained below the carrying capacity of the land + Adequate sex ratios=QDM

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Only time will tell...

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Having hunted PA. for over 30 years I dont like them. There is no hard concrete evidence to suggest that they are needed. How many of the good Dr. Alt would have supported them without him holding up the big rack at his dog and pony show? All antler restrictions were for was the carrot to dangle in front of the people to get herd reduction in.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Not being from PA I' m watching closely. I figure in a couple years there will be a lot of nice racks running around. I haven' t hunted in PA for a couple years. As soon as you get all the big ones growing I' m comin' bowhuntin' .:D:) I can be in PA in about 30 minutes.:D

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Dale,PA, Alt showing a big rack may have influenced some people. That I cannot argue, as I can`t read minds!:D

It did not get me all hot and bothered, it wasn`t that big. Big for PA, but that is all.

In your neck of the woods, you may not have too many deer, but in my area we have WAY too many.

In some areas herd reduction is undoubtedly needed. In other areas maybe not.

I can`t argue that we probably need smaller deer management units. Hopefully that will come at a not so far distant date.

But you gotta take the first step on any journey, if you are ever going to get there.


BTW, Alt never denied lowering the total herd. My own personal opinion is that we should carry in the neighborhood of 800,000-1,000,000 deer statewide. That is a pretty big reduction. Granted, some areas may not need thinned down. Hopefully that will be taken care of.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

well,this is certainly a hot topic.I hunt in MS.We have been under AR of 4 point(total) since 1995.Up to that point we had way too many deer and way too many immature bucks.Probably 65% of the 1 1/2 old bucks were killed every year.Since the ar went into effect we have seen the number of mature bucks increase in the deer heard.The % of 4.5 year old bucks harvested has increased 300%.We see a harder more defined rut.We have also aggresively shot does during this time.So,has it been a success.yes if you look at the % of mature bucks in the herd.Now, the size or quality of these bucks has' nt changed much.There are just more of them.Rack size is limited by soil quality and lack of agriculture in many areas.In places with better habitat the effects may be more pronounced.I do believe that we have a more balanced age structure now which is better for the health of the deer heard.Will ar' s produce massive numbers of trophy bucks.That depends on soil quality,genectics etc.I do believe that it has helped our deer herd.I think having the proper age structure is important and from that aspect it has been a plus.The real downfall to ar' s is that your real" trophy" bucks get killed early. Because of their antler development they are legal as 1 1/2 old deer.While many inferior deer are passed up because of the ar.

CB

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Dale/PA,
I was unable to get to any of the meetings, and I still think AR is a worthy cause and a just idea. Anyone that sees a rack being held up by a spokesman should know better than to think thoses results happen overnight.....besides, it' s a fact that antlers will get bigger with age....and nutrition, etc....why does everyone see it as QAM just because the deer get to grow up?

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Jason I was never one to worry about what was on a deers head. In my opinion way to many people do that. If the deer was taken fair chase and ethically it shouldnt matter wether it was a spike,doe or a trophy buck. Why is it that some people think there is only one way to do things is beyond me. I like some of the things being done now but as for the others well lets wait and see.As I stated before there is no concrete evidence that AR. was needed.Even Dr. Alt has said he isnt sure what is needed. All that is going on now is one big experiment and the deer herd in Pa is the guinea pig.
BTW herd reduction isnt needed in my area thats for sure. I can show you areas with great habitat and not that many deer. The way it was done the past year ws a joke.Just blanket the state with doe tags and have at it yep real sound deer management there.For the record i have taken wat more does than bucks so I dont have a problem taking does just not the way they want to do it.
As for the new WMUS well lets say they arent the greatest either. My county gets cut into 4 pieces> my camp is one my house and where i do most of my doe hunting another and the game lnads i hoped to start to get to know better in bow thid yet another. Now the odds of me getting tags for all is slim to almsot none so I guess you could say I dont like them either.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Cajonhunter,

Great to hear you positive experiences!

One thing though...
It has been proven that the size of the rack for a yearling buck does not determine level of quality. Trophy ranches are now not shooting their " inferior" bucks until they reach 2.5, and mostly 3.5 years of age. You just cannot tell what they will be until that age. 400 yearlings followed in TX, as well as similiar studies in PA and Gorgia, have shown the average 3.5 year old that started as a spike, 4pt, or 8pt, to be virtually equal at 3.5 years of age, on average. In fact, the spikes were slightly higher in the 3rd year TX study-close to even, but still it showed that you can' t tell until they are older.

Just a thought too. What is inferior? I shot an " inferior" 3.5 year old 9pt in WI this year that scored 119. Most of the good 3.5 year olds in the area are usually 130 to 150. My buck was inferior, but I' ll enjoy looking at my " inferior" buck on the wall when I get him back from the taxidermist.

You have just as much chance shooting a superior buck as a yearling spike, as you do a yearling 8 pt.

Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Let me rephrase my comments a little.The inherent problem with AR' s is something bioligists refer to as high grading.That is a deer with superior genetics who gets proper nutrition will develop a set of branched antlers as a 1 1/2 old.This deer is fair game because even as a young deer he has antlers greater than the AR.Not that the other deer are " inferior" per say, they may eventually grow nice antlers.it' s just that the deer who have the most potential are shot earlier because of their rack size.My experience from this has been that not every deer who gets to maturity will have a " trophy" rack.Some will, some won' t.Habitat and genetics,mostly habitat are the determining factors.Look at Illinois and the monsters they grow there.I don' t care what kind of ar we have here we will never have deer like in Illinois.The MS delta produces some nice bucks,but on the piney wood loes type soil,no way.Overall it has been a positive because we have more mature deer in the population.However I think some people here were under the asumption that if you let bucks get a few years on them we would be killing monster bucks.It just has' nt happened here because of habitat limitaions.Now some of the people I hunt with have unrealistic expectations.They are getting to the point were they don' t want you to shoot a buck unless it' s a " trophy" .My solution is too shoot mature 3.5 to 4.5 year old bucks.Some may have nice racks, some may not.FWIW my son killed a 8 pt 15" spread 18" beams,4" bases.Nice buck.He was aged to be 8 years old.We' ve killed some 4.5' s with similar racks.Point being that age alone won' t grow big racks.

CB

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

My feelings? More trophy hunter garbage.

JRW

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

JRW,

Don' t jump on the " Trophy Management" garbage bandwagon, without knowing the facts.

QDM only looks to protect YEARLING Bucks, not 2.5, 3.5, 4.5, 5.5, 6.5,7.5, and up. Huge difference!! Also, QDM looks at protecting roughly 80% of the yearling age class in your area, with total disregard to supposed inferiority or not.

Protecting yearling bucks is the first piece of the philosophy.

2nd: Populations maintained below the carrying capacity of the land.

3rd: Promotion of adequate sex ratios.

That' s it, that' s QDM. Big diffence from " Trophy Management" . Alt promotes QDM, not TDM.

This philosophy is no diffent than how fish are managed, many places for elk out west, or 50" minimum moose restrictions in AK. No different. Improve where they live, improve what they eat, and balance populations by sex and age structure. It all boils down to health. Health of the herd, and health of the habitat.

Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
Protection of yearling bucks + Populations maintained below the carrying capacity of the land + Adequate buck:doe ratios = QDM

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Nice post Jeff :) Some folks just don' t get it.
Personally, I don' t see why so many folks get so upset at AR' s. Yes, if someone is new to hunting, or a youngster, and they haven' t killed much of anything...it may be a little frustrating to have to pass on anything. But for folks that have experience, and have plenty of kills under their belts......why wouldn' t you want to pass up the young bucks? Shoot a doe or two or three or ten instead.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

NorthJeff,

I was responding to the title of this thread; " antler restrictions, Your Fellings" . I wasn' t commenting on Alt, or whoever. Nor was I attacking QDM...this time.

Personally, I tire of people who assess levels of value to game animals based on the amount of bone growing out of their heads, which is why I repsonded with " more trophy hunter garbage" .

JRW

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Would you guys just forget about the darn " HORNS" for a minute already. The objective is to create a healthy herd, equal ratios that is with in the carry capacity of habitat. I understand your a meat hunter, you are looking for steaks, roasts, etc. But if you allow loading(ratios) to continue you will have many things other than an unbalanced(which equals unhealthy) herds to deal with. CWD, other disease' s, car/deer collosions, no real hard rut....the list goes on. How is that going to help fill the BBQ. Look at it this way, you' ll have many more quality steaks to chase with solid Deer Management.

Age/maturity levels have everything to do with health of the herd. Antler have nothing really to do with the health, (many factors determine year to year antler growth...most of which are out of the control of your DNR any way) All things being equal (food, nutrient, stress levels and ratios) antler growth is a by product of solid deer management and deer herd health.

It would seem the real issue is you don' t like being told what to shoot??? It takes the fun out of the sport???? The best way to deal with the DNR' s decision is blame the other side: Trophy Hunters! I guess they must have the numbers and the louder voice?????? I doubt that is the case.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

had to pass 3 bucks this year because of our new law [:' (] which i would never do: i hunt to eat,;) antler stew does not taste good [X(] and as for me personnally i don' t belive in harvesting a deer because of his antler size[&:]

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

NO, ricoace it indicates AGE!!!! DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT A HEALTHY DEER HERD IS ONE WITH VERY FEW MATURE MALES? I agree with what they are tring to do in PA but not necessarily the way they are trying to do it. By killing all the six and eight point racked 1 1/2 yr old bucks and letting the other spikes, forks etc. survive you are actually killing the genetically superior bucks in the herd. A much better measurement of age is antler spread and main beam length.

QDM is not all about killing big bucks so you can get your name in some book. Its about healthy and balanced deer herds. Most places across the country have buck to doe ratios that are severly out of wack and this is do to the misconception that killing a spike buck is more manly then killing a mature doe. Thankfully a good number of people are waking up and realizing this is not the way to go if a balanced and healthy deer herd is what is desired. Yes balanced and healthy go hand in hand.

An unbalance deer herd causes much strain on bucks with a rut that lasts for a stretch of months instead of weeks. In many parts of the northern range this spells the demise of these bucks who go into the coldest part of the winter after losing 20% of their body weight.

Look at the facts man!

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Wulff,

By someone' s who' s ultimate end game is telling me to pass deer and let them grow bigger racks so he can has a better chance of putting his name in the book? You bet.

Yes. Antler worshiping does.

Well, I have yet to see a meat hunter whoop and wail at a guy for shooting a forkhorn. So you tell me who' s doing the bawling.

---------------------------------------------------------

Pilot,

And big racks are just a coincidental byproduct? How nice. I' m sure that never entered anyone' s mind, right? No offense, but don' t whizz in my ear and tell me it' s raining.

Well, let' s see. In the last three seasons alone I' ve filled 13 antlerless tags and one buck tag with a mature 10-pointer. That' s 14 deer and only one with a rack, and in areas where the DNR says the herd needs reduction. If I feel inclined to shoot the first forkhorn down the trail on opening day this year would that be alright with you? Or will shooting a buck well short of the hallowed " trophy status" cast me into the great unwashed of bowhunting?

JRW

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Trophy Management:
*Selective culling of bucks in the 3.5 to 4.5 year old age class due to inferiority.
*Passing on bucks until 5.5 to 6.5 to experience the full potential of antler growth.
*Establishing 1:1 ratios.
*Genetic minipulation.
*Fenced operations and private properties of a minimum 1000 acres.
*Year-round supplemental feeding to encourage higher carrying capacities.

Quality Deer Management:
*Protection of yearling bucks.
*Populations maintained below the carrying capacity of the land.
*Adequate sex ratios(usually around 2.2 does to 1 buck-not counting fawns)

Just some facts:
*It has been proven with numerous studies that rack sizes of a yearling bucks do not indicate potential. Ex: A spike has just as much chance of being superior as an 8 point. Also, professional game managers are recognizing this and holding off on culling deer until 3.5 years of age-the first age where signs of inferiority is the most definant-again this is only in the case of TDM, not QDM.

*QDM is about overall health of the herd. If you feel the overall health of the herd is being forced upon you, maybe you need to look in the mirror and ask yourself are you in this for yourself, or the deer and the future of hunting. Brian Murphy, the Executive Director of the QDMA has harvested 90+ does in the past 10 years, 1 Button Buck, and 3 bucks. Trophy Management??

*Many of you guys say you want to harvest a deer only for meat, so the size of the rack doesn' t matter, but in many cases, having a rack does indeed matter. How many does have you shot? You say it' s about the meat, so how many does? Also, a 2.5 year old buck will have, on average, 30 to 50% more meat than a yearling buck(1.5 year old). It' s all about the meat you say?? You say it' s all about the meat, but then you shoot a yearling buck with 1/2 as much meat as a mature buck or doe. It' s about the meat?


Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
Protection of yearling bucks + Populations maintained below the carrying capacity of the land + Adequate sex ratios = QDM

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

I feel there is a need for antler restrivtions at times to thin out the larger doe populations and to help ensure that there are going to be enough bucks for the next season to repopulate the Deer heards.
hunters are more likeley to let a doe walk than a spike buck.
I say let them go so they can grow to be trophy bucks.
besides does tastes better
we can all do our part by taking more does to equal out the ratios.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

JRW....I think you are a closet QDM' r ;) [&:]

If I recall correctly....you killed an awful nice buck this year, and promptly entered him in the record books....right? hmmmm
I think that' s great and hats off to you.....and since it appears you are already doing qdm...(whether intentional or not), why do you have such a problem with it?

I think Jeff is right.....many of the folks that claim to be meat hunters, are the ones that have problems with QDM. (or AR' s) If it' s not important to someone that kill a buck...why would they care if there are AR' s?

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

wvhunter, for myself I passed on some awfully nice deer that would have been meat on the table. Instead I had to let them pass only because I could not tell if they were legal. Honestly I would not have eaten the horns anyway!

I appreciate the responses to this topic and I would end this thread if I new how only because I don' t believe in kicking a dead horse.
Thanks to all!

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

After reading a majority of the posts it is clear that most people have strong feelings either for or against this type of management. The original question was posed about the changes made in PA, so that is what I want to address. There are more things to consider here than the fact that the AR dictates the number of points a buck must have to be harvested. Here are some facts to consider:

On opening day of " buck season" there are 1 million hunters that take to the woods. More than any other state. The vast majority of these hunters will only hunt again the following two Saturdays of the season and some will only hunt that day. The restrictions will clearly have an impact on the number of bucks these individuals will take and many of them have no interest in harvesting a doe.

The buck to doe ratio in PA is drastically out of balance. The PGM is hoping that by overlapping the buck and doe season, restricting the size of bucks, and issuing more antlerless tags that hunter will be more apt to take a doe thus bringing the ratio closer to balance.

The average age of bucks in PA is 2.5 years and the majority of deer are 1.5 years. A buck that lives beyond 1.5 years is lucky.

Antler size aside, a herd made up of a unproportionate number of does to the number of immature bucks is by no means healthy. You have little to no competition for breeding rights, and therefore, inferior genes being passed on.

With all this being said I will say that anyone that argues that this program has only herd health in mind and feels that it is strictly altruistic is mislead. However, that is the game commission recognizing the desire of many hunters to shoot bigger bucks. I personally do not see a problem with this. I do think that to effectively bring the buck to doe ratio into balance more drastic measures need to be take such as BigCountry suggested and perhaps an " earn a buck" program be put into effect. I have hunted in NJ the last three years and in that short period of time I have noticed a change on some of the properties we hunt. We go beyond the guidelines of the program and shoot more does than what is required, but it shows that the program does work. I am all for it and hope they continue to make changes to try to get PA' s herd back into balance.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

JRW, your quotes were refering to my comments not wulff' s. I must admit my question on my last point were to try to drum out if those indeed were feelings in those who oppose AR as a DM tool...so a little egg on if you will.

To the question of " Don' t like being total what to shoot?" The objective is to balance the age of the herd, so you don' t have front or rear loading in maturity levels. Yes, this could improve the antler quality, but I don' t believe that is it' s main intent...as mentioned it can be a sideline benefit. Also antler growth is really out of the DNR hands, as it is very dependant on nutrient levels and uncontrollable factors. How do you promote to average hunter, that equal ratios of age are important to the health of a herd? How do you enforce or give a guage on what immature or mature looks like on a buck? Basically what are the choices to ensure equal numbers are harvested and protected? It has been of late the the hunting population, believes in ratio in males and females being balanced. It took many years to undo the taboo of shooting does. You have to start before it is to late.

" Takes the fun out of it" I was just hoping that the answer wouldn' t be " THE HARVEST" . Antler worshiping as you call it, is a personal choice. I am a trophy hunter, but I also believe whole heartily in Deer Management. In many cases I have passed immature deer that would score well within my standard and opted to take my only buck of the season, a mature deer that was either in downslide or had inferior genes. Had my main objective been a mount for my wall that younger (not quite prime deer) would have been harvested. I believe in taking does and always have. Not only is it solid deer management, they make for excellent table fair. Yes I maybe classified a " Trophy Hunter" but I really enjoy the meat, so I consider my self both.

" Blaming the other side: Trophy Hunters" . The hollering about shooting forkhorns, is hardly done by Trophy Hunters alone. Most experienced hunters, say why would you shoot a fork horn. In fact most Trophy Hunters I know would rather you shoot the forks and leave the trophy class alone, for selfish reason? I am not one of them. I am selfish to a point, I would like as many individuals realize they have a role in deer management and they should share in the responsibility. What you choose to shot is your business, like wise it is mine. I mentioned I don' t expect anybody to jump on my bandwagon, I do it for me!!!

You mentioned: your harvests were 13 does and 1 Mature buck. You also mentioned Does need to be harvested in your area. Sounds like deer management to me. I am guessing in those 3 season you have probably seen and passed a number of bucks, is this correct? If so, why? Not that it matters but I don' t think our views are to far a part.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

WV Hunter,

Yep, I sure did. Truth be known, I was at half draw on a doe when I first saw him. Not only that, there were three basket-rack buck chasing everything in sight that day, and I was trying to slip an arrow through one of them because it was the first day of a four day hunt. The fact that I shot a 140-class 10-pointer and not a 80-something 8-pointer was just a matter of who gave me the first good shot.

Oh...and I had a little 6-pointer string jump me about 2 weeks before that. I was really hoping to see him again. We had a score to settle. :)

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Skeeter,

Sorry about the name mixup on my part.

I don' t know that it' s an antler thing as much as it is herd thing. I agree with you about balancing the herd with respect to gender, but when we start talking about passing this buck or that buck because his antlers aren' t big enough, it' s not a gender issue any more. It' s a trophy issue.

JRW

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

JRW, I am not saying it is a gender thing, but a maturity issue. I agree a trophy can be the result and in my cases passing that (not quite peak) 4 year old with trophy class potential and opting for the over the hill mature buck, was most definetely a trophy desicion. It also had management implications for my area. It was a desicion that I felt most comfortable with making. I am not saying that is is something that everybody should do, but as a hunter making the desicion to fling string or pull trigger is up to that individual and he/she alone on legal animals. I merely used the reference to show not all " Trophy hunters" are rack worshipers or rack obessed with a yearly harvest.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

I think Hunting Bry said it best. Also if Pa. would either have a longer Bow Season or Be allowed more than 1 deer I wouldn' t see all these Pa Plates. Only kidding. but what these Pa hunters told me is that they are only allowed 1 deer. Is that true. They travel a long ways to hunt on state land. I get very little sleep at night and these guys have an extra hours trip.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Jerseyhunter,

In PA we can only take one buck and apply for up to 3 antlerless tags....that doesn' t mean you' ll get all or any of the antlerless tags. Buck tags are part of the general hunting license and are bought over the counter....by anyone 12 or older that has passed a hunter education course(unlimited supply so anyone that wants to hunt is gauranteed a tag - but only one per year). Antlerless tags must be applied for in a particular county and only used in that county (with the new rules and regs there is going to be deer management units and the county boundaries will no longer be used as management boundaries.....the regs stated above have been in place for a long period of time and are probably going to change to DMU' s this season). Then there are special regs areas that you can apply for as many antlerless tags as are available....still only one buck though....and the antler restrictions in the SR areas are of old - spike 3" or more or multiple points of any lenght - for everyone. Right now junior hunters fall under the 3" or more catagory statewide.....as well as active military and I believe disabled hunters too (not sure about that).

Did that answer your question well enough???:D:D[:-]

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

it def was a good thing. this was the first year however that 90% of the bucks i saw were all legal deer.....i got the biggest one a basket rack 8 point

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

I for one am all for QDM. I wish Ny would have a antler restriction. Its not just about trophy racks. Its sound management practice. It creates a better herd when more doe are harvested, and the age class increases. A 1 to 1 or 1 to 2 buck to doe ratio better benefits the herd. It helps proper breeding, and at the right times of yr for better fawn births, and survival. I' d suggest do some reading on it. Check out www.qdma.com

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Ok I' m back I made the mistake of not reading all of the posts before I responded, so I must again, sorry. I don' t hold it against anyone for shooting young bucks. But I think there' s something here several are missing. Are big racks a part of hunting, and our desires, YUP. Is that all that antler restrictions are about, nope. Obviously most bucks supporting small racks. Like PA' s restrictions they are bucks of 1.5 yrs of age. If we harvested all those bucks, future breeding would cease, gone, see ya, no more deer. Thats being exaggerated, but my point is, and I' m sure biologists will tell you the same. Young bucks don' t get a chance to breed. Most your doe are bred my older mature bucks. Therefore by setting antler restrictions thats the easiest way for hunters to quickly identify a young buck. By letting that buck go, he has a chance to breed a doe next season, and continue the cycle. Simple!!