RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Let me try this without cut and paste.
1. I readily admit that I do not hold vast amounts of knowledge in the field of QDM.

That said, this AR system in PA makes sense to me because it will allow bucks to grow.
It will not get all the big bucks killed. The few that are already big have aquired some degree of intelligence in the field of survival.
As bucks get more mature(older) the dominant ones will do the majority of the breeding.(this is assuming that we also bring the doe population down to a closer buck/doe ratio.

The dominant(stronger,healthier) bucks I would assume would sire bigger, stronger, healthier fawns.

One thing I do know is that does pick which bucks will breed them. If there are dominant bucks available, they will get the job.
This has been told to me by people that make their livelyhood with whitetails.
I have also seen many things in my bowhunting that would lead me to believe this is infact true.

You have to be patient here, I have been awake all night, so I am not real sharp just now, plus I am at work, so I am occasionally distracted.

As far as me hoping to see some high, heavy, wide 10 pointers....I got a wall of them now. (not real wide, but I got the real heavy, and real tall covered.)

Guess I am gonna cut and paste anyhow...


You say:sure sounds like passing judgement to me.

Well, I can agree that it could be taken that way, but that it not how it was meant.

I will say that I cannot fathom how you know it is not QDM.
It has never been tried in this state before, so it is impossible for me to say that it WILL work. How can you say that it won`t.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

I think AR' s are a good thing. PA is doing the right thing. It' s not about QAM...it' s QDM. They aren' t worried about growing monster bucks...just improving the herd overall. Letting the majority of the 1.5 year old bucks go, and taking does instead. The buck doe ratio is way off...and PA hunters hammered the buck population every year...while hardly shooting any does(in comparison). The idea behind the AR' s will allow some of the bucks that would have gotten killed to live, and alot more of the does to be taken. They should have done it a long time ago. In a few years...the results will show....better herd health, better buck/doe ratio, and less deer (which they definitely need). And yes...there will be some dandy bucks running around, which is a plus....but NOT the goal.
I wish they would do it where I hunt. I also think the earn a buck program is a good one too...I' d support that also.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

This may help some understand the basic need for a healthy herd in any state. W/O taking an adequate amount of antlerless deer the entire herd feel the pain.

Read on and feel free to take a look at www.QDMA.com for more info than most of us can spout in a day. Yes this can and will help produce trophy class animals. However if your goal is to actually help the habitat and the herd along with the possibility of taking a larger, older deer, take a look.


http://www.qdma.com/Why_Qdma/detail.asp?ID=6

Jim

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

WV Hunter - Excellent grasp of the big picture. Ditto to everything you said.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

I am 100 percent in ageement with LilHunter on this one...Antler Growth has ABSOLUTLY nothing to do with with the over all health of a deer, it only indicates diet and genetics. Its this emphasis on antlers and size thats imposing the the biggest buck $ for the biggest Buck mentality in our sport.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

No worries Bc, we kinda got mixed in the posting times lol.


Some basic knowledge, you want less animals shoot more. It shouldnt matter if they are 1 yr olds or 8 yr olds. Putting antler restrictions does not accomplish this.

I agree most states have to many deer. By handing out and either sex tag and numorus doe tags, the does will be shot, the either sex tag will be saved for a buck or later in the season used for a doe. The shooting a doe before a buck maybe harvested is also a good ploy, but having antler restrictions is nothing more then a ploy to grow bigger antlers period! And when you look at the scheme of Quality DEER Management, Antlers have NOTHING to do with it.

Those same does will breed regardless. THey dont walk around saying sorry charly your spread aint wide enough for us to mate. Lets get a little more real here. The main goal of them is to survive and procreate the species. In which in recent times they have done both very well.

So plain and simple, you want less deer shoot more! You want bigger antlers, start practicing QAM on your own land and leave my back 40 alone!

Forgot to add,

Wv, finally a post that resembles deer management not Antler management! Atleast one person is more worried about the deer and not the numbers...

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

I still believe that does choose dominant bucks to breed them, if possible. I have seen smaller bucks run does for hours, then a big buck comes in and the doe stands for him.

Someone else just started a thread inquiring about Kirschners deer lure. I know Bob very well. I have seen this in his deer pens as well.

Back to the PA situation. If the PGC numbers are anywhere near correct, we have way too many deer in SOME parts of the state. I know in the SW portion of PA, where I live and have bowhunted for 30 years, this is definately the case. We have way too many deer. From the late 70`s through the late 80`s I can honestly say that I never saw a spike buck in the farm country where I live and hunt. And we had enough deer. Now we have at least double the amount of deer as back then, and I see spikes and 3, 4, 5 points on a regular basis.

When I say that I never saw spikes in the past, I will add that during this timeframe I was very successfully self employed, and hunted literally every single day of the season.

Do I want to see JUMBO bucks, you bet! But if I thought it would come at the cost of a healthy herd, then I would gladly do without.

We obviously have differing thoughts on PA`s current attempt at herd management, and for the sake of the herd, I hope I am right.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

As you may or may not be able to tell I am not yet convinced whether it is qam or qdm. I will say that in the presentations by the pgc they stated that it is desirable for the older bucks to breed to strengthen the gene pool. Do the genes change? Doesn' t the 10 point have the same genes that he had as a spike? I am truly selfish in that I want the absolute best hunting that I can get, I am also satisfyed with the 4 point or as was the case two years ago a 3 point. I also think that it is incorrect to say ar will ' improve the deer herd' I definately believe it will improve rack size both physically and numerically. The steaks, chops, roasts and sausage of the 3 point was just fine, it didn' t need improvement.

Thanks for the comments and arguments both pro and con.

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Yes, a big, mature buck still has the same genes as he did as a pup, but IF it is true that in a decently balanced ratio herd that mature bucks do the vast majority of the breeding, then that genetically strong buck won`t get a chance to breed as a yearling.


I am not a biologist, but I did stay at a holiday in express last night!;)

RE: antler restrictions, Your Fellings.
 

Here in the north eastern part of Arkansas Game and Fish done two things that seem to have helped. They put the antler restriction on and included a doe season with the shotgun season. Now guys who would wait on that spike buck will take the first doe that walks by. That in itself has saved countless bucks. That started only 2 years ago. Ive seen more BIG DEER this year than ever before. In the field and at the check station. Im all for it. But I do not consider myself an antler hunter. For one Im just not that good yet. I will usually take the first legal deer I see. This year that was a good thing because it was the only one I had in range (I could list countless excuses). :) These two things combined will greatly increase our chances of getting a nice buck in range just because more of them will make through the dredded gun season.