If your BH's and FP's hit the same it means your bow is out of tune!?
03-23-2008, 05:09 AM
#31
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location:
Posts: 7,367
RE: If your BH's and FP's hit the same it means your bow is out of tune!?
80% of my shooting is done with Broadheads on my Arrows. So therefore I tune with Broadheads. Why? Because I am a Hunter.
Every once in a while I'll shoot a field point to see if they are flying approx. the same[8D]
Dan
Every once in a while I'll shoot a field point to see if they are flying approx. the same[8D]
Dan
03-23-2008, 06:27 AM
#32
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Milwaukee WI
Posts: 1,161
RE: If your BH's and FP's hit the same it means your bow is out of tune!?
ORIGINAL: Len in Maryland
The test, as far as I perceive it, is flawed in at least three ways and probably more.
The test, as far as I perceive it, is flawed in at least three ways and probably more.
In no way am I disputing that is isn't flawed; I just want to know those three ways in which you think it is flawed.
Just this week I proved to customersthat a properly tuned bow,arrow, and archer(s)can shoot fixed broadheads(we used the one that was the worst case in the video test)and fieldtips together and we were doing it at 30 yards; and, we didn't need a machine to do it.
Did you also have to meet tuning requirements half way between the FP and BH to do it?That's all I'm saying is that if you tune both to hit"the same" you have essentially just found a happy medium.Anyone who says that a FP and a BH to hit the exact same is saying they can defy the laws of physics, plain and simple.
I'm interest to see what you have to say to Aurthur's postimmediately followingyoursbecause he has the experience or knowledge as you do,to put thingsthe way I want it but can't.
03-23-2008, 07:02 AM
#33
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Milwaukee WI
Posts: 1,161
RE: If your BH's and FP's hit the same it means your bow is out of tune!?
Here's another question/angle the guys with more expertise here can try to answer for me. (no way patronizing, it's a fact some of you are experts)...
If a bow is perfectly tuned, a FPand good quality BH will hit the same right? That is what you're saying. Now, if that is the case, then wouldn't any other quality BH hit the same once you've already tuned the first set of FP and BH's? And if that's the case then wouldn't any another quality broadhead yet, that is the same weight but twice the cutting diameter still hit the same? See, if a BH which is 4 times the cutting diameter as a FP can hit the same as that FP then why wouldn't it stand to reason that a BH that's only twice the cutting diameter as that BH hit the same as it?
I thinkthere arethree ways to tune your bow:
1) to your FP's
2) to your BH's
3) to a happy medium between your FP and BH making the poi's of both to meet in the middle making you tell yourselfyour bow is now in tune.
I also think, and I may be wrong, but not wanting to be wrong has overridden science and physics when people say FP's and BH's can hit the same.
If a bow is perfectly tuned, a FPand good quality BH will hit the same right? That is what you're saying. Now, if that is the case, then wouldn't any other quality BH hit the same once you've already tuned the first set of FP and BH's? And if that's the case then wouldn't any another quality broadhead yet, that is the same weight but twice the cutting diameter still hit the same? See, if a BH which is 4 times the cutting diameter as a FP can hit the same as that FP then why wouldn't it stand to reason that a BH that's only twice the cutting diameter as that BH hit the same as it?
I thinkthere arethree ways to tune your bow:
1) to your FP's
2) to your BH's
3) to a happy medium between your FP and BH making the poi's of both to meet in the middle making you tell yourselfyour bow is now in tune.
I also think, and I may be wrong, but not wanting to be wrong has overridden science and physics when people say FP's and BH's can hit the same.
03-23-2008, 07:39 AM
#34
Join Date: May 2006
Location:
Posts: 41
RE: If your BH's and FP's hit the same it means your bow is out of tune!?
Who says the bow in the video was"perfectly tuned"?
it obviously wasn't.
you'd be surprised how close FP and SOME fixed blades can fly.
Give me that shooting machine, and in 15 minutes I'd have it much closer than it was.
You could take a bow that shoots an arrow through the paper and tears it in half, and you could still put it in the same hole every time. This just shows 2 things...a bullet hole through paper doesn't mean "perfectly tuned",,,AND just because you can hit the same hole every time , or shoot awesome groups, doesn't mean your bow is "perfectly tuned" either.
In most cases if you tuned the bow to shoot the field points and the broadheads as close to the same as possible your bow would be "perfectly tuned" and will group as good as you can shoot.
it obviously wasn't.
you'd be surprised how close FP and SOME fixed blades can fly.
Give me that shooting machine, and in 15 minutes I'd have it much closer than it was.
You could take a bow that shoots an arrow through the paper and tears it in half, and you could still put it in the same hole every time. This just shows 2 things...a bullet hole through paper doesn't mean "perfectly tuned",,,AND just because you can hit the same hole every time , or shoot awesome groups, doesn't mean your bow is "perfectly tuned" either.
In most cases if you tuned the bow to shoot the field points and the broadheads as close to the same as possible your bow would be "perfectly tuned" and will group as good as you can shoot.
03-23-2008, 08:37 AM
#35
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,127
RE: If your BH's and FP's hit the same it means your bow is out of tune!?
I had the same thoughts. Maybe the bow in the video needs the nocking point and arrow rest tweaked a bit - and will shoot a certain BH to the exact samespot as a field point.
03-23-2008, 08:39 AM
#36
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: HENDERSON KY USA
Posts: 6,634
RE: If your BH's and FP's hit the same it means your bow is out of tune!?
ORIGINAL: Hoytail Hunter
Here's another question/angle the guys with more expertise here can try to answer for me. (no way patronizing, it's a fact some of you are experts)...
If a bow is perfectly tuned, a FPand good quality BH will hit the same right? That is what you're saying. Now, if that is the case, then wouldn't any other quality BH hit the same once you've already tuned the first set of FP and BH's? And if that's the case then wouldn't any another quality broadhead yet, that is the same weight but twice the cutting diameter still hit the same? See, if a BH which is 4 times the cutting diameter as a FP can hit the same as that FP then why wouldn't it stand to reason that a BH that's only twice the cutting diameter as that BH hit the same as it?
I thinkthere arethree ways to tune your bow:
1) to your FP's
2) to your BH's
3) to a happy medium between your FP and BH making the poi's of both to meet in the middle making you tell yourselfyour bow is now in tune.
I also think, and I may be wrong, but not wanting to be wrong has overridden science and physics when people say FP's and BH's can hit the same.
Here's another question/angle the guys with more expertise here can try to answer for me. (no way patronizing, it's a fact some of you are experts)...
If a bow is perfectly tuned, a FPand good quality BH will hit the same right? That is what you're saying. Now, if that is the case, then wouldn't any other quality BH hit the same once you've already tuned the first set of FP and BH's? And if that's the case then wouldn't any another quality broadhead yet, that is the same weight but twice the cutting diameter still hit the same? See, if a BH which is 4 times the cutting diameter as a FP can hit the same as that FP then why wouldn't it stand to reason that a BH that's only twice the cutting diameter as that BH hit the same as it?
I thinkthere arethree ways to tune your bow:
1) to your FP's
2) to your BH's
3) to a happy medium between your FP and BH making the poi's of both to meet in the middle making you tell yourselfyour bow is now in tune.
I also think, and I may be wrong, but not wanting to be wrong has overridden science and physics when people say FP's and BH's can hit the same.
The broadheads have to be quality heads,not all will hit the same.
The arrows have to be of the proper spine and I don't mean by a chart,I mean exact.
The foc has to be high enough to allow it to happpen.
Inserts have to be aligned perfectly.
Center shot vertically and horizontally must be right.
Bow must be timed correctlty with no cam lean.
Archer must be able to shoot without torquing and have good follow through.
The release must be clean,loops help in this area.
Must have adequate steering on the backend,helical feathers preferably.
You can just put a bow on a machine and tune it to paper and expect them to hit the same.
I have done the above and the first time I shot the broadheads,they were hitting the same or VERY close to the same.(I have a thread pasted at the top of the technical forum)
Not all can achieve this because some can't even shoot without torquing.
I believe the flawed things Len refereed to are unqualified persons performing the test.When they said they paper tuned the bow,that was a dead giveaway.(as you can see,there is much more to tuning than that)
Probably spine issues.Slight rest adjustments will yield good paper results from improperly spined arrow but not good flight downrange,especially with broadheads and yes,even have the field points hitting the same,OUT OFA MACHINE.But they usually compromise centershot.
And probably more of the things I listed above were probably not right.
03-23-2008, 08:53 AM
#37
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Hughesville, PA USA
Posts: 18,322
RE: If your BH's and FP's hit the same it means your bow is out of tune!?
ORIGINAL: ducsauce
Just watched the video. I should havewatched it before responding the firsttime.[&:]Very interesting. I would like to see some more ppl respond.
I see that the Rocky Mtn synpersperformed the best. I would have liked to have seen them test the Rage but I take it this was an older video?
Just watched the video. I should havewatched it before responding the firsttime.[&:]Very interesting. I would like to see some more ppl respond.
I see that the Rocky Mtn synpersperformed the best. I would have liked to have seen them test the Rage but I take it this was an older video?
03-23-2008, 09:07 AM
#38
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Hughesville, PA USA
Posts: 18,322
RE: If your BH's and FP's hit the same it means your bow is out of tune!?
The other thing that I haven't read here is that you HAVE to ADD the human error into the equation. Why?
As you saw in the video, all broadheads hit low left. We as archers obviously cannot hold dead calm as the machine does so we have to allow for float. That float could very well cause us to shoot perfect. The pin could be slightly high right when the bow goes off and the broadhead would be dead center.
When grouping, we're sending broadheads into the yellow are of the vegas ring they were using. We might be slightly high right of the x, slightly low right of the x but sending an arrow time after time into the exact same hole, no human on earth can do it so, we need to add in the human error part of the equation which brings our broadheads in.
When I type, I have RM Snypers, Field points, Muzzy, Sonics and G5 hitting the same spot out of my Ally, I'm not blowing smoke, they may not be X's time after time, but I can assure you, I'm in the yellow or at least in the orange downrange. 2" groups out at 40-50 yards with broadheads,even 75 when I elk hunted, yeah, I'll take that and add in my human error.
As you saw in the video, all broadheads hit low left. We as archers obviously cannot hold dead calm as the machine does so we have to allow for float. That float could very well cause us to shoot perfect. The pin could be slightly high right when the bow goes off and the broadhead would be dead center.
When grouping, we're sending broadheads into the yellow are of the vegas ring they were using. We might be slightly high right of the x, slightly low right of the x but sending an arrow time after time into the exact same hole, no human on earth can do it so, we need to add in the human error part of the equation which brings our broadheads in.
When I type, I have RM Snypers, Field points, Muzzy, Sonics and G5 hitting the same spot out of my Ally, I'm not blowing smoke, they may not be X's time after time, but I can assure you, I'm in the yellow or at least in the orange downrange. 2" groups out at 40-50 yards with broadheads,even 75 when I elk hunted, yeah, I'll take that and add in my human error.
03-23-2008, 09:13 AM
#39
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Central Minnesota
Posts: 9,445
RE: If your BH's and FP's hit the same it means your bow is out of tune!?
ORIGINAL: MeanV2
80% of my shooting is done with Broadheads on my Arrows. So therefore I tune with Broadheads. Why? Because I am a Hunter.
Every once in a while I'll shoot a field point to see if they are flying approx. the same[8D]
Dan
80% of my shooting is done with Broadheads on my Arrows. So therefore I tune with Broadheads. Why? Because I am a Hunter.
Every once in a while I'll shoot a field point to see if they are flying approx. the same[8D]
Dan
03-23-2008, 09:39 AM
#40
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 7,876
RE: If your BH's and FP's hit the same it means your bow is out of tune!?
ORIGINAL: Hoytail Hunter
And wouldn't that just make sense? Let me explain:
According to this video link: http://www.prorelease.com/xring.aspx?action=1
A BH shot out ofa tunedbow willNEVER EVER hit the exact same spot as a FP shot out of that same bow. In the video link, tests are done out of a shooting machine on various BH's. The tests were controlled and variables eliminated.None ofthe BH's testedhit the same as where theFP hit. Some were only an inch off while others were as much as 4 or more inches off.
This begs the question: Are all of the people in the archery world who claim their BH's hit where their FP's do, just telling themselves that they actually hit the same spot?
I can't imagine any law of physics or science that will allow 2 objects of different shape, size, and aerodynamics to fly the exact same way. I think when people claim that their BH's and FP's hit the same, it is because they hit close enough within an inch or two that they just concede it is so.
Here'sthe out of tune theory: Guys have perfectly tuned bows to begin with when they are shooting FP's. They then screw on a BH and find that the poi is now 4 inches low. At this point they begin de-tuning their bows ever so slightly so that the poi of the BH and the FP meet at the halfway mark. This is the only way I can see them hitting together.
What do you think?
And wouldn't that just make sense? Let me explain:
According to this video link: http://www.prorelease.com/xring.aspx?action=1
A BH shot out ofa tunedbow willNEVER EVER hit the exact same spot as a FP shot out of that same bow. In the video link, tests are done out of a shooting machine on various BH's. The tests were controlled and variables eliminated.None ofthe BH's testedhit the same as where theFP hit. Some were only an inch off while others were as much as 4 or more inches off.
This begs the question: Are all of the people in the archery world who claim their BH's hit where their FP's do, just telling themselves that they actually hit the same spot?
I can't imagine any law of physics or science that will allow 2 objects of different shape, size, and aerodynamics to fly the exact same way. I think when people claim that their BH's and FP's hit the same, it is because they hit close enough within an inch or two that they just concede it is so.
Here'sthe out of tune theory: Guys have perfectly tuned bows to begin with when they are shooting FP's. They then screw on a BH and find that the poi is now 4 inches low. At this point they begin de-tuning their bows ever so slightly so that the poi of the BH and the FP meet at the halfway mark. This is the only way I can see them hitting together.
What do you think?