Should I freak out!!??
02-24-2008, 06:54 AM
#11
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Southeast, Va
Posts: 3,965
RE: Should I freak out!!??
"Every arrow that leaves the shop will be at least 5 grains per inch which is the industry standard that all bow makers use. if your bow is rated 70lb then your arroe will be 350gr total weight, if your bow is rated 60lb then we can go to 300gr total weight. You can shoot the 200 or 300 pro's without hurting your bow. you will loose 4 fps with the 300 arrows but gain 2lb energy. your 200 arrows are 4.9gpi approx and your 300 arrows are 5.1 gpi approx. neither will hurt your bow."
This is the e-mail from the pro shop, however, when weighed, my arrows fall way short of the required weight. What ya think??
This is the e-mail from the pro shop, however, when weighed, my arrows fall way short of the required weight. What ya think??
02-24-2008, 06:59 AM
#12
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wadena, MN
Posts: 4,701
RE: Should I freak out!!??
ORIGINAL: Vabowman
I honestly only care to shoot fast enough to have one pin to 25 yds and not have deer jump the string.
I honestly only care to shoot fast enough to have one pin to 25 yds and not have deer jump the string.
02-24-2008, 07:25 AM
#13
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Southeast, Va
Posts: 3,965
RE: Should I freak out!!??
Teejay, no I don't think my bow is as fast as sound. I don't mind going heavier, I just like to hunt with one pin out to 25 yds.
Ijust spent another 140$ on these arrows, and now it seems as if I got tospend another 140$ ouch man, Im a teacher, I can't afford it! By the way, your welcome!! (your quote)
Ijust spent another 140$ on these arrows, and now it seems as if I got tospend another 140$ ouch man, Im a teacher, I can't afford it! By the way, your welcome!! (your quote)
02-24-2008, 10:03 AM
#16
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: Should I freak out!!??
I'm not quite sure I understand what is going on there. You were shooting 200's, which I assume are a weaker arrow? I am not that familiar with PSE arrows. And now you are shooting a 300, which is the next size up. How are you thinking the 200 and the 300 are going to the spine the same for that bow at that draw weight?
From the sounds of it you shortened your arrows to 24 inches to compensate? What were they before? If I have time I will run the numbers in Ontarget and see what it says you should be shooting.
What type of rest are you shooting that it lets you shoot that short of an arrow, you must be shooting with some overdraw in order to shoot 24 inch arrow with a 26 inch draw.
73lbs with a 26 inch draw lenght, crap dude! I draw like 55-60 lbs at that draw length. Are you sure your draw length isn't a bit short for you? You seem bigger than that to me.
Out of curiosity why did you change from the 200's to the 300's if it meant you had to shoot a shorter arrow?
As far as will it hurt your bow, no I highly doubt it. People keep forgetting to take into account the draw length. The minimum grains per pound rule is for a 30 inch draw length. You have a 26 inch draw length which means you are putting out way less energy. It would be the same thing as shooting less draw weight. You should technically be able to shoot whatever weight arrow that will give you what the bow is rated for IBO. If it is rated to handle the energy to push an arrow at 320 fps it should be able to handle it regardless of arrow weight. You are actually doing less harm to it because you are not using as much energy to get the lighter arrow to move that fast.
When people talk about shooting lighter arrows harming bows they normally mean shooting a lighter arrow to increase speeds beyond what the bow is supposed be rated for.
Using the AMO minimum weight chart I come up with around 350 grns for your minimum arrow weight. And this is AMO which is heavier than IBO.
So I think you are safe, especially if you have stuff on the string like silencers, nock and a peep sight. And using limb savers makes a big difference as well. I think with all the vibration reducing products we have now you could easily shoot a much ligher arrow than people think you can.
I think I shot some 200 some grn arrows out of my 350 dollar darton yukon when it was set at 68 lbs and 26.5 inches of draw. Didn't do a thing to it. I can't imagine what you are shooting will ruin your bow. Might not last as long if you shoot a lot though, and it's hell on strings so you might want to change those every season even if you think they don't need it. And if you use an STS type product I don't see them being great on your string either, so that's something to consider.
And your pro shop guy needs to buy a better calculator or take math again, because your arrows come out to 4 grns per pound and 4.5 grains per pound respectively. 344 divided by 73, it's not rocket science dude
. Maybe you can tutor him?
What is your set up? I will look and see if I can find it, but if I can't let me know what it is.
Make, model and year of bow.
Brace height
Axle to Axle
Type of cams
Rated IBO speed
Draw length
Measured Draw weight
Arrows
Shaft length
Tip weight
Type of fletching
Type of rest you are using and how far back it is set
What is on your string
I don't really need all of it though. I will search your posts and see if you list what you shoot somewhere though since you are not online right now.
Paul
From the sounds of it you shortened your arrows to 24 inches to compensate? What were they before? If I have time I will run the numbers in Ontarget and see what it says you should be shooting.
What type of rest are you shooting that it lets you shoot that short of an arrow, you must be shooting with some overdraw in order to shoot 24 inch arrow with a 26 inch draw.
73lbs with a 26 inch draw lenght, crap dude! I draw like 55-60 lbs at that draw length. Are you sure your draw length isn't a bit short for you? You seem bigger than that to me.
Out of curiosity why did you change from the 200's to the 300's if it meant you had to shoot a shorter arrow?
As far as will it hurt your bow, no I highly doubt it. People keep forgetting to take into account the draw length. The minimum grains per pound rule is for a 30 inch draw length. You have a 26 inch draw length which means you are putting out way less energy. It would be the same thing as shooting less draw weight. You should technically be able to shoot whatever weight arrow that will give you what the bow is rated for IBO. If it is rated to handle the energy to push an arrow at 320 fps it should be able to handle it regardless of arrow weight. You are actually doing less harm to it because you are not using as much energy to get the lighter arrow to move that fast.
When people talk about shooting lighter arrows harming bows they normally mean shooting a lighter arrow to increase speeds beyond what the bow is supposed be rated for.
Using the AMO minimum weight chart I come up with around 350 grns for your minimum arrow weight. And this is AMO which is heavier than IBO.
So I think you are safe, especially if you have stuff on the string like silencers, nock and a peep sight. And using limb savers makes a big difference as well. I think with all the vibration reducing products we have now you could easily shoot a much ligher arrow than people think you can.
I think I shot some 200 some grn arrows out of my 350 dollar darton yukon when it was set at 68 lbs and 26.5 inches of draw. Didn't do a thing to it. I can't imagine what you are shooting will ruin your bow. Might not last as long if you shoot a lot though, and it's hell on strings so you might want to change those every season even if you think they don't need it. And if you use an STS type product I don't see them being great on your string either, so that's something to consider.
And your pro shop guy needs to buy a better calculator or take math again, because your arrows come out to 4 grns per pound and 4.5 grains per pound respectively. 344 divided by 73, it's not rocket science dude
. Maybe you can tutor him?What is your set up? I will look and see if I can find it, but if I can't let me know what it is.
Make, model and year of bow.
Brace height
Axle to Axle
Type of cams
Rated IBO speed
Draw length
Measured Draw weight
Arrows
Shaft length
Tip weight
Type of fletching
Type of rest you are using and how far back it is set
What is on your string
I don't really need all of it though. I will search your posts and see if you list what you shoot somewhere though since you are not online right now.
Paul
02-24-2008, 10:13 AM
#17
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: Should I freak out!!??
Ok, I found a post where you were selling your Xforce, this is what I'm basing things on.
07 xforce
33" ata
6" brace
26 inch draw length
73 lbs draw weight
kisser button
peep sight
And I'm going to assume you are using 4 inch vanes on your arrows.
I will get back with you in a while with what I come up with.
Paul
07 xforce
33" ata
6" brace
26 inch draw length
73 lbs draw weight
kisser button
peep sight
And I'm going to assume you are using 4 inch vanes on your arrows.
I will get back with you in a while with what I come up with.
Paul
02-24-2008, 11:55 AM
#18
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: Should I freak out!!??
Ok this is what I come up with using ontarget and adjusting it to your specs (300 grn arrow at 309 fps)
I used a 25 inch arrow with 90 grn broad head and 2 inch blazer vanes.
Your correct arrow length for a 26 inch draw length should be around 25.25 inches from nock groove to the end of the insert. I went with a 25 inch shaft length for my calculations. You must be shooting a shorter arrow though because I come up with a heavier arrow, unless the arrow you are shooting is not in my database. I have Radial X Stealth Hunters and Radial X Pro's. Both weigh the same and come up to about 310 grains for a finished arrow weight according to Ontarget. It isn't always dead on though.
I show the 200 being a near perfect spine match at 25 inches with your set up. The 300 shows up on the stiff side. And if you are shooting shorter arrows than 25 inches they are way stiff. If you are shooting 24 inch arrows they show up off the charts stiff. However the weight doesn't come out right, so I question the actual length.
If you can measure your arrows for shaft length for me and let me know what they are. Don't include the nock or insert, just the shaft. And then verify that they weigh what what you posted (344 grns finished arrow weight)
If your arrows vary from what I used let me know (2 inch blazer vanes and 90 grn tip weight).
For the 300's with your draw weight and draw length I show you needing almost a 29 inch arrow with a 90 grn tip in order to spine correctly. The only problem is you would have really low FOC, like 7 percent and an arrow weight of around 370 grns . Or you could go with the 300's using a 125 grn broad head and a 27 inch shaft length. I show this being the correct spine and it would give you an 11% or so FOC but it would put you at near 390 grns. ( I sort of like that one)
If your arrows are indeed 24 inch radial X 300's at 24 inches I show you needing close to a 250 grn tip weight in order to break down the spine correctly. Putting you at near 500 grn arrows! Which isn't really what you are looking for.
The 200's at 25 inches with a 90 grn tip spine almost perfect and give you a 9% FOC. This is what I would suggest with a 90 or 100 grn tip if you wanted the speed.
According to ontarget all of the above arrow combinations would still keep you above 250 fps.
Again I ask what was your reasoning in switching arrows in the first place? Where you looking for a heavier arrow? That is the only reason I see going to a heavier spine arrow. Choosing more spine lets you either go with a longer arrow or more tip weight in order to increase overall arrow weight. Or turn up your draw weight, but you are already maxed out from the looks of it.
This is why overdraws were so popular with aluminum arrows. It would let you shoot a shorter arrow and that meant you could drop to a weaker spine, the two combined meant you could shoot a much lighter arrow to increase speed.
I personally like a heavier arrow. I have a 26 inch draw length and draw around 60 lbs. I shoot a 27 inch aluminum arrow that weighs above 400 grns. I don't get much speed out of it though.
I just did some playing and another option for you would be to go with 100's at 24 inches long and use a 75 grn tip, then turn your poundage down to 63-65 lbs. It would still put you around 300 fps and it would be easier to draw. I honestly wouldn't suggest going that light on arrows though. Maybe for 3-d, but not for hunting.
I hope that helps you some. And remember these are not dead on accurate figures, sometimes you still need to play a little. However they are MUCH more accurate than the arrow charts, those things are pretty much useless sometimes.
On the upside your arrows are stiff, not weak. They may work ok for you, it would be worth trying first. However if you have trouble tuning them you will know why.
Paul
I used a 25 inch arrow with 90 grn broad head and 2 inch blazer vanes.
Your correct arrow length for a 26 inch draw length should be around 25.25 inches from nock groove to the end of the insert. I went with a 25 inch shaft length for my calculations. You must be shooting a shorter arrow though because I come up with a heavier arrow, unless the arrow you are shooting is not in my database. I have Radial X Stealth Hunters and Radial X Pro's. Both weigh the same and come up to about 310 grains for a finished arrow weight according to Ontarget. It isn't always dead on though.
I show the 200 being a near perfect spine match at 25 inches with your set up. The 300 shows up on the stiff side. And if you are shooting shorter arrows than 25 inches they are way stiff. If you are shooting 24 inch arrows they show up off the charts stiff. However the weight doesn't come out right, so I question the actual length.
If you can measure your arrows for shaft length for me and let me know what they are. Don't include the nock or insert, just the shaft. And then verify that they weigh what what you posted (344 grns finished arrow weight)
If your arrows vary from what I used let me know (2 inch blazer vanes and 90 grn tip weight).
For the 300's with your draw weight and draw length I show you needing almost a 29 inch arrow with a 90 grn tip in order to spine correctly. The only problem is you would have really low FOC, like 7 percent and an arrow weight of around 370 grns . Or you could go with the 300's using a 125 grn broad head and a 27 inch shaft length. I show this being the correct spine and it would give you an 11% or so FOC but it would put you at near 390 grns. ( I sort of like that one)
If your arrows are indeed 24 inch radial X 300's at 24 inches I show you needing close to a 250 grn tip weight in order to break down the spine correctly. Putting you at near 500 grn arrows! Which isn't really what you are looking for.
The 200's at 25 inches with a 90 grn tip spine almost perfect and give you a 9% FOC. This is what I would suggest with a 90 or 100 grn tip if you wanted the speed.
According to ontarget all of the above arrow combinations would still keep you above 250 fps.
Again I ask what was your reasoning in switching arrows in the first place? Where you looking for a heavier arrow? That is the only reason I see going to a heavier spine arrow. Choosing more spine lets you either go with a longer arrow or more tip weight in order to increase overall arrow weight. Or turn up your draw weight, but you are already maxed out from the looks of it.
This is why overdraws were so popular with aluminum arrows. It would let you shoot a shorter arrow and that meant you could drop to a weaker spine, the two combined meant you could shoot a much lighter arrow to increase speed.
I personally like a heavier arrow. I have a 26 inch draw length and draw around 60 lbs. I shoot a 27 inch aluminum arrow that weighs above 400 grns. I don't get much speed out of it though.
I just did some playing and another option for you would be to go with 100's at 24 inches long and use a 75 grn tip, then turn your poundage down to 63-65 lbs. It would still put you around 300 fps and it would be easier to draw. I honestly wouldn't suggest going that light on arrows though. Maybe for 3-d, but not for hunting.
I hope that helps you some. And remember these are not dead on accurate figures, sometimes you still need to play a little. However they are MUCH more accurate than the arrow charts, those things are pretty much useless sometimes.
On the upside your arrows are stiff, not weak. They may work ok for you, it would be worth trying first. However if you have trouble tuning them you will know why.
Paul
