RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Haven't you been following any of the posts, this is a dicussion. Get off of you greedy soap box, I pay taxes too, taxes that go to help small business such as outfitters start up. I pay taxes on CRP ground that is paid to keep out of production, but still makes unknown amounts of money by people hunting on it. Do go to preaching to me about where I should hunt. You know that outfitting puts a squeeze on the average hunter yet you still want to make us believe that you are the saviors of the outdoor world. Look guys, if it wern't for outfitters paying their taxes, not only would there not be any deer, but there would be no public ground for us lowly deadbeat hunters to hunt these great gifts that were given to us from the almighty outfitter.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Actually, none of the Shawnee National Forest is privately owned. And, it is owned by the Federal Government not the State, so i find it hard to believe that any of it gets leased out by the State.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

I beg to differ, at least about some of it not being privately owned. While picking up a plat map at the National Forest Service headquarters in Harrisburg an official told me that not all of the available public hunting land was marked as sometimes signs are weathered or torn down. On the plat map I bought (which shows all of Shawnee in Illinois) there is quite a bit of the forest itself which has been private property for many years. They advised me to pick out an area or two I was interested in and buy maps for those specific areas detailing the boundaries.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

People like you... you just don't understand anything. There's no sense in even talking to you about it.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Dont care for them. The w h o r e out the land and animals for top dollar, leaving the land and animals in bad shap. Then move on. I had outfitters ruin one of my properties. They leased land next to mine and raped it, until it was out of animals, then moved on. It took more than 8 years before I started seeing animals agian. That was after they gave up the lease next to my land. They had clients out 7 days a week. Thats a lot of deer for one area. They didnt care, they leased it, and when the animals were gone, they gave up the lease and moved to the next streach of land. Im see that very problem around me right now with all the goose outfitters. Use to be thousands up on thousands of birds around here. Now you are lucky to see a few. The outfitters have just about drivin them out of this county.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

we run coyote dogs all over this part of IL, and I can't tell you how many outfitted properties we have permission to coyote hunt that we find dead bucks on.......with the heads cut off!! It's sad. There is an investigation going on....short fruitless one.....pointing towards outfitters that dumped a half dozen dead headless bucks in the local gas station dumpster!!! I don't like the idea of hunting becoming a big money industry, but if they are doing it LEGALLY....why not.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Actually, there are lots of pieces of private property that are completely surrounded by National Forest Land. I think that is what is confusing the issue here. I never meant to imply that the National Forest was one contiguous piece of ground.By definition, if it is National Forest Land, it is public, not private. The point is, the parcels that aremarked on your map as private property are not part of the National Forest,therefore i stand by my statement that NONE of the Shawnee National Forest is private property. ;)

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Point taken:). I guess I'd like to see it as one huge block of public land, be easier for people like me to interpret the maps.......lol. Hope to make it there for a few weekend hunts sometime just for the fun of it.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Cougar, not to get off topic, but just noticed that you're from SE central, IL. Around where at in central Illinois? Im from Paris. (Edgar county)

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Robinson in Crawford County.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

1. Yes I have been following this discussion...about people not liking the fact that they have lost free places tohunt. Public land is free to hunt.
2. Outfitters put a squeeze on the average hunter???? No one is making them hunt with an outfitter! They can hunt public land for free!
3. When did we say we were the saviors of the outdoor world??
4. When did an outfitter ever say that "we" gave you the deer??

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Uuuhhhh.....OK!!!

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

People can do what they want to. I have hunted with them and some are good and some are not. It's an experience either way

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

So Thwack, just an honest question. Do you think everyone who doesn't pay for permission to hunt should hunt public property. If it were up to you, should everyone who hunts private property either own it or pay leasing fees. Do you understand what my side of the argument is. If not, I don't know how I can be much clearer. I understand perfectly where you are coming from and I'm not going to try to stop you from doing what you are doing. I couldn't if I wanted to anyways. I just think it is a shame what hunting is coming to, and I refuse to take part in the oldidea of hunting as a pastime becoming a just that, an old idea. I think hunting is changing, and for the worse. You guys that take advantage ofor are changing with it, you are probably smarter than I am, but I still stand strong for what I believe in. And if that means that one day I will have to quithunting, well I'll do it sadly, but with pride. IMO outfitting and leasing are changing the sport for what most of us will agree is for the worse, but if that is the way it must be, well....so be it.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Ok, so if we assume leasing and outfitting is the problem...what is the solution? More government regulation? Outfitting/Lease bans, i.e. criminalize outfitting?

In a free market system, there are winners and losers. I don't likehaving to lease property to hunt, but that isgoing to be my first purchase after I graduate fromlaw school. (As long asthe ol' lady ok's it.;))

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

That's just it Mizzou, I don't think there is a solution. Trust me, being a business major, I know all about the free market system, but I think it is a shame that hunting is just that, a free market business system, don't you agree?

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

LOL why do you guys get to decide what someone else does with HIS land? You claim you cant afford to lease land. So what if the farmer is in the same money situation as you? Should he let the guy he barely knows continue to hunt for FREE or lease it out to a group of hunters or outfitter? No brainer and dont claim for a second that you all wouldnt do the same.

You keep claiming everyone is greedy, but you are the one who wants to continue hunting land for free when the land owner is offered money on a lease.

His land= His decision. If it really is IMPOSSIBLE to find private land to hunt, head to the public land. Many people on here CHOOSE public land over private land.

Your whole greed areguement, just paints you as a hypocrit.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

TEmbry,
I don't for a minute blame a landowner for taking advantage of an opportunity to make any money off his property, and yes I would do the same. And it is not impossible to find private ground, but that is soon becoming the case. As I said, I see your side of the argument, but do you agree that money is soon going to become, as it does with everything, the thing that drives the sport. I am no hypocrite, but I simply believe that hunting is not what it once was, and I think it is sad. If it comes to the point where I and the other thousands of hunters can only hunt public ground, and I have to set my treestand 20 feet from another hunter, I am going to quit, because I will no longer enjoy or believe in the sport. Again, though my earlier posts may have suggested it, I have no quarrel with you, but I still believe that OURsport is slowly going downhill. And if you can't agree with me on that, you are not a true hunter.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

I don't know about downhillbut i see your point in this last post. No one wants to be stacked in public land like cordwood. I just saw people earlier ripping on landowners for leasing their land and this is greed. No other way of looking at it.They want what they no longer can have for free.

Money is starting to drive hunting, but it does with everything in life though. I cant think of anything in life where money isnt a big factor.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

I see where you are coming from, but...although hunting is a money-driven industry...it is also an industry driven by hunter demand. If no one was willing to pay outfitters, there wouldn't be outfitters.

With respect to leases, it is a good option for someone like me. I can't afford large chunks of land that I want to hunt. But I probably will be able to afford to lease land. And I realize that when I lease land, someone who washunting for freehas now 'lost' a spot. But clearly I value thathunting spot more than someone unwilling to match my price.

Same goes for outfitters. It is economically efficient to allow hunters and outfitters to operate the way they do now.Think of it like this...outfitters do the worka lotsome hunters don't like to do...Scout, place stands, clear shooting lanes, etc. Maybebecause some hunters time is better spent elsewhere.We all know the guys who huntare hardcore hunters opening weekend and then could care less the other 363 days of the year. And if somehunter wants to hunt out-of-state andpays an outfitter, you can't really blame theguys providinga service.

It just makes economic sense. Do I likethe fact thatsome hunters are being displaced? No. Buteverybody has to play the hand they were dealt.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Mizzou, believe it or not, we agree!

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Money driving the sport is why sponsors are willing to purchase Internet advertisements, on an online hunting forum. Advertising revenues allow hunting sites such as this one to operate hunting forums free of charge.

Money is why companies invest in researching, developing and improving hunting products.

Again, we have to take the good with the bad.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

It's just to bad that that the bad is so bad, and bad is bad, and that's bad. Wait, what did I just say? I don't know, but I do think that deep down we are all the same as hunters, though in anger I may have said differently, but we just have different principals and situations.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Amen, for a little while there I thought I might need an excorcisom, or change Jobs. LOL :D

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

I think all of us agree that we would like it much better if this wonderful sport of ours wasnt quite so driven by money. That having been said, If hunting wasn't such a big powerful business, we'd be in much greater danger of losing it to the PETA types. Make no mistake about it, the economic value of hunting has kept the anti's from chipping away at our sport in thousands of situations.

I'd call that the lesser of evils

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Thats not it all. The start of this thread was people against outfitters because the outfitters were leasing up all the good private hunting land. They were mad because they lost their free place to hunt. If they want a free place to hunt then go hunt public land if you cannot find private land to hunt. Thats why I also stated that why are they blaming the outfitter and not blaming the owner of the private land for leasing the land. The thread has gotten way to long and it has gotten of course from the original start. There was absolutely nothing I said refering to the fact that people should hunt public land if they dont pay. You have taken that way out of context. And I also never stated anything saying people should pay for private land. I did state however, that if the ones mad because the outfitters leased the land then they should go lease it if they want to hunt it that bad. It is not the outfitters fault that the owner said no to free hunting and is making income off the land. If people are so against what hunting has become, then boycott it, stop buying and paying for hunting related materials. Is it sad, sure it is, but unfortunately thats the world we live in. It is not that we are taking advantage of it, we are simply making a living doing what we love to do. There are many hunters that demand outfitters so we have to meet the demand. Why is it that hunting/outfitting is being singled out for this. We could name numerous professions in which this the case. We live in a world of inflation and everything that we do life is more expensive than it ever was. I guess the next topic will be prices of license and hunting equipment. But we still buy it. How about vehicle prices? But we still buy them. We could go on and on about things in life. We are all on the same page for the most part it just hit shome on the outfitters and I get a little defensive.


I do have one question though!
For all the Illinois residents against outfitters, are you against non-resident archery tags at almost $400??

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Honestly, this may come as a shock, but I think that $400 a tag is pretty outragous. That makes it hard for a guy that is on a limited budget to come up here and even hunt on public ground. With the way the deer herd is in southern Illinois at least, I think they should make at least doe tags a little cheaper. And another thing I don't understand about Illinois is if the DNR is raking in all of this money from out of states tags, where is it going. They are getting rid of CPs, they are cutting down on conservation programs. If I had to guess, it's conserving the size of somebody's pockets.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

I am interested to see the response about the tag prices but not sure everyone will be honest about it. They probably understand where I am going with that one!!
But your point about the DNR and where the money is going is a very good issue. It is going back into the state and not being used towards the DNR. I am really good friends with the game warden in our county and the way they have cut back is unreal. So many things they have done to those guys that is just not good for the DNR.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

I agree 100%. By the way, you may have said, but are your from IL Thwack, and if so, whereabouts?

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

I am not against all outfitters, just the few encroaching in my area;). Truth be told I've had lots of talks with myself and a good buddy about outfitting. Even if I or we could afford to lease enough prime land in my area and survive until proper managment finally paid off with good healthy herds, good bucks, finding reliable part-time help, scouting, stand sites, etc............I'd probably be lynched by the county hunters.

To answer your question about almost $400 archery either sex tags for NR's, no thats too high. But as you have stated about outfitting/leasing if the demand for those tags are there then why not? I didn't really enjoy driving more than 1,200 miles to Colorado and paying almost $500 for an either sex elk tag either, but I did. In fact my son now lives in Indiana and so to enjoy his company on some weekend hunts next year I've offered to pay for his 2008 NR tag. Small price to pay to have him along.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

No I live in Ohio but I help run an outfitter in Illinois.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Good night to all....and to all a good night!!

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Thats interesting!Its funny how you can run into people so close. Im going to be in Robinson Thursday night for a girls basketball game.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Hey thats cool! I'd like to meet you but I am working 4PM to 2AM this week except for yesterday/today.....had to call in with the flu[:'(]. You get back this way or I get up toward Paris we will have to grab a lunch.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

I really wanted to stay out of this conversation, but I can't help myself, and need to say a few things. For starters, don't lump all outfitters together. There are alot of different kinds of outfitters. I am an outfitter in southern Iowa. I will say I am different from most. My dad and I run the service. We OWN the land we hunt and have for 15 years. We don't lease anything. We aren't getting rich doing this either. We do this because it was something I have always wanted to do, and it pays for the management we do. It pays for treestands, food plots, and all the other little stuff we all buy every year.

I throughly enjoy doing this. I have met guys from all over the country. We have had some of the most hard core hunters you will ever see. These are just regular guys, who live in places that don't have the trophy class bucks these guys have been dreaming about their whole lives. So they go somewhere that does. To be an outfitter in Iowa you have to be in it because you like it. Because of the minimal amount of non-resident tags the state gives out, nobody is getting rich here.

Which leads me to bring up this thought. A lot of the blame in Illinois lies with the state. When you give out 20,000+ tags a year to non-res hunters, what do you think is going to happen. These hunters and outfitters/landowners know they are guaranteed hunters every year. That is not the case in Iowa. Still I have had conversations with state reps and DNR officials about licensing outfitters, to keep the business in check. I don't want my state to end uplike Illinois.

Another thing that puzzles me is why I hardly ever see anyone hunting the 4500 acres of public land that borders our farm. This is some of the best hunting ground you will ever find. I hunt it some myself, and I don't have to. I hunt it because it is excellent hunting. Besides the first weekend of shotgun season I rarely see more than 2-3 vehicles a day there, and that is a weekend. You hardly see anyone during the week. The only reason I can come up with is people are lazy. There are no motorized vehiles allowed on state ground, so people have to walk.

I am sure I have offended some people with this, and I am sorry for that, but I was getting sick of people lumping all outfitters together. I will be the first to tell you that there are some real crooks out there, but that is the same with anything. I do feel bad for guys that don't have a place to hunt. I can't imagine how bad that would suck, but I think the blame can be spread around to a lot of different people. So the next time you decide to go off on a group of people, remember that not everyone is the same.

Thanks,
Dan

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

The one i bear hunt is awsome!! Just like family