RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

I really don't think anyone can truely answer this question without having lost ground to these pimps. How many of you that are singing the praises of these hunting whores have lost a piece of property that you have hunted for years to outfitters? Many of you see them as a great tool in the sport of hunting, I see them as the downfall of this great sport. To those of you who are outfitters, I do not view you as a hunter, I do not view you as a sportsman,youare thegreedy bastard child of the sport of hunting. Shame, and worst wishes toyour business.[:@]

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Southern Illinois. Wayne, White, Edwards, Wabash. They are everwhere down here.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

:eek:

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

You got that right! White county here;)

Dan

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

How is it biased?

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Thats what I worry about.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

When you say you lost land to them...........do you mean they took land that you owned?

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Add me to that list, because I think in the future, many of the states are going to end up like Texas, don't have a couple grand to pay for a lease, don't have a very good place to hunt. Sad, but very likely and true unfortunately.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Splitear Leland, Perhaps if there were not any outfitters, and the landowners leased the ground all out to YOU, or your Friends, then would you be exempt from the same crap your talking?, or then will the landowner become a bastard Child of the hunting world? "Complete insanity"

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Best solution I can see is for one outfitter to have exclusive rights to a county with a limit on the maximum amount of acreage. The landowners who miss out on leasing it to an outfitter can always lease to a hunter.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

The poll has no acceptable answers for me as well. It most definitely shows the bias of the person writing it. Polls are meaningless when the pollster sets out to get the results he wanted and words the questions that way.

Outfitting is not the problem. The problem is thatour sport is changing andthat change has been a two edged sword.

Lets take Illinois, for example, 15-20 years ago,outfitting was virtually unheard of largely because the quality of the whitetail deer hunting in Illinoiswas not that widely known. In order to go hunting, one simply needed permission from a neighbor. Once the secret was out, it took relatively little time forsome landowners and enterprising entrepeneurs to realize that serious money could be made from hunters willing to come to Illinois and pay big dollars to hunt for deer that were of a quality not to be found at home.In the past 10-12 years, I've watched the cost of land in the golden triangle grow by almost tenfold. The cost of tags has tripled and the cost to lease land or to hunt has also skyrocketed.

It's easy to just blame outfitting. The underlying problem is much more complex. Hunting has always generated big dollars but theaverage joe hunter could participate in his sport close to home with his only expenditures being in gear and maybe some gas.These days, permission to hunt generally costs something. In areas where the quality of the hunting is better than average, that cost will continue to climb as long as the demand continues to grow. How has this happend? Hunting TV has certainly contributed to it. The average hunter 50+ years ago hunted close to home and food was the primary objective. Now very few of us can hunt close to home and, lets face it, with all we spend just on gear and gas, hunting mainly for food is a fallacy. My family and I love venison and we treasureevery ounce, but forwhat I spend hunting vs the meat we get, we could eat lobster and filet mignonevery day.

Hunting has become big business just like many other pastimes. I spent $20 the first time I took my kid to a hockey game. Now it's at least a$200 evening for two people in the cheap seats. Taking a week to go deer hunting used to cost 12 bucks for a license and gas to get to camp.

I got involved in a small Illinois outfitting (more like a club) operation several years ago.
Why? Not because I wanted to make a business out of the sport I love, but because it was the only way I could afford to be able to huntevery year ina deer hunters paradise. Welease enough land to be able to manage it well and take enoughhunters each year to get the bills paid. We have agood relationship with all our neighbors and with the landowners. Our hunters pay a fair price well under what others in the area charge and everyone is happy. Not all outfitting operations are like your neighbor.

Blaming outfitters for the rising costs of huntingis like blaming the guy behind the window at the gas station for the cost of a gallon of gas.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

I can't fault a guy for making money of his land. The guy's saying they lost land, no you didn't you never owned it. With the way things are now why not approach theland owner and make a deal,so you don't loose the permission to hunt. Let's say you have something someone is willing to pay for or someone wants it for free which way would you chose. The landowner usually has mouths to feed alway's has taxes to pay and might want something to retire on some day too.

Most of the leases in our area are from logging companies, in the lease on most it states you cannot use their land as an outfitter, but for a guy that owns his property he would be crazy not to lease,instead ofletting people on it for free if he has the chance to do it.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

I will never lease ground, nor will I hunt on leased ground. Just the same as most of you will never hunt high fence, I do not agree with it's principals. I refuse to do this not so I can make a statement, I refuse to do it becauseI disagree with doing it. I will someday hopefully be able to buy property, but as long as I am hunting on other landowners, I will let others hunt on my property. I refuse to become part of this epidemic, and shun those of you who take part in it.
As for you outfitters who claim to not do it for the money, WTF! You tell me that, and unless you are not charging for you hunts I will call you a liar.
When I say "lost property" I mean for instance, you hunt a piece of property, and have hunted if for years, and in my case killed your first deer with a bow off of this property. Now this year the landowners says that someone has offerd him $200 an acre for a lease and he couldn't turn it down. He asks you to remove all of your treestands, and tells you that you will not be allowed on his property. Now that is what I mean by losing property to hunt.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

2 out of 8 of the questions don't exactly paint a positive picture do they? A 50/50 choice would have been more fair a statistically valid in the poll.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Let me get this straight...Unless you can hunt for free on land that someone else worked (probably pretty hard) to pay for, pays taxes on every year and is responsible for insuring every year, you won't hunt it. I guess all the landowners out there should just let you hunt simply because you believe you're entitled to something for nothing? It'sno surprise that the landowners that I know that now lease their property out all have a similar attitude towards the hunters who they used to let on their place. Many farmers I talk to tell of hunters who showed up onlywhen it was time to hunt, took the prime spots and offered not even a thank you in return. No wonder these farmers are eager to lease their ground!

When you get something for nothing, don't expect it to last too long. Someone will come along thats willing to pay their fair share.If you had been giving something of value ( not necessarily money) in return for your hunting priveleges, maybe you wouldn't have "lost" that land that wasn't yours anyway.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

I believe you have mistaken what I said, therefore you are not straight. I will hopefully someday buy ground, to hunt, but will let others hunt there as long as I am hunting on other landowners. As far as something for nothing, you have no idea what I do for the landowners that I hunt on, so you can pretty much quit your preaching. I've helped them cut firewood off of their ground, I've helped bale hay, we've even spent $200 dollars and a bunch of time fixing one of the landowners trucks. And I don't do this because they let me hunt, I do it because first of all I like the guys, and second of all, I feel I do owe it to them to help them out, because they help me out by letting me hunt. Then somebody comes along, who none of us know from Adam, waving a bunch of cash in front of the landowners face. I don't blame the landowner for taking it. But if you want to start preaching your greed driven ethics to me, you're wasting your breath. Tell me BT, have you ever lost hunting ground to an outfitter? No, because according to your sig, you are the problem. Tell me, do you see a problem with in the future outfitters controlling hypothetically 90% of the property. Do you see a problem with average joe hunters having to pay thousands of dollars to hunt a deer. It is a "free market" as is said. Well, if that is what hunting is going to come to, an outdoor Wal-Mart, then I will be happy to bow out of the sport. Until then I'll keep speaking out against you guys pimping out wildlife and the sport of hunting.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Unless I am mistaken, when you have land, you will let others hunt as long as you get something in return. Kinda sounds like whats happpening now. Just because money doesnt change hands doesntmean your land doesnt have a price.You just said so.


First of all, you assume too much. I too have lost hunting ground to outfitters and or clubs. It's one of the reasons I took the bull by the horns and got involved. No I don't make a money profit at it, but I do get to hunt at no cost. That is my profit and I won'tever apologize for it.It's all a matter of what you are willing to do to enjoy your sport.

You say you did things for your landowner...well it obviously wasn't enough. If your boss cut some firewood for you and maybe fixed your truck, should he be able to pay you less ? maybe he ought to be able to pay you less cause he likes you? The farmer is simply making a living with his land.The outfitter is part of it too but if there wasn't a market for it, neither would get any money. Your anger is misdirected. If the demand wasnt there, outfitting wouldnt exist. Outfitters didnt create the demand.BTW, Most situations I've seen with Illinois landowners is that they give the folks who presently huntfirst chance to match any offers they get.

You obviously missed my point. I would rather see everyone being able to hunt where they want for free but thats not the real world any more. When the real world changes, you can change with it or you can get left behind. I dont like it either, but it's the cards we've beendealt.

The average Joe doesnt have to pay thousands to hunt a deer. There are many places where anyone can deer hunt for free but the deer may not be a big or as plentiful as in most of Illinois. You live in prime deer country and expect those of us who don't to feel sorry for you because you may have to pay like the rest of us do.

Have you ever hunted anywhere but for something you cant hunt at home? If you never have and never will go somewhere other than home, you have the right not to like whats going. But your rights stop there. If, on the other hand, you have or will someday, go out of your area to hunt andare willing pay for the privelege then you are simply a jealous NIMBY ( stands for: Not In My Back Yard) and a hypocrite.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

BT, I am going to bow out of this argument, because no matter how much we fight and bicker, neither of us are going to agree. I hold nothing against you, I may disagree with your occupation, but what can I do about it. I do however believe that turning hunting into an enterprise is going to kill this sport. Greed is what drives these operations. No matter how much you want to say that you don't do it for the profit, you do it because you love it, if you did it just because you love it you would do it for free. I do have a question though, does the back of your red vest say "Ask Me For Help"?

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

We are getting off subject because this is about outfitters but, if someone leases to hunt fine and if someone hunts by permission then fine too.

But what I find funny is how things have become twisted the last 10 years or so. By twisted I mean some of you think its not fair to hunt by permission if that is what the landowner prefers? Amazing!

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Outfitting is acceptable to me, there are some places where you just shouldn't try to hunt without guidance, but I feel they should never get preferential treatment when it comes to licenses and tags. Stand in line like everyone else or tell your customers to apply for their own licenses well before they arrive and show them how to do it.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Well who would have a problem with outfitters if they get to hunt bucks like these for free? It's not like losing your hunting land had any effect on your hunting.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

My view is just like some of the others-- eventually, outfitting will run this sport into the ground.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Good points Kevin. Unfortunately money talks ,and when money talks the politicians listen!!

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

You all really think it is outfitters that are ruining this sport? You realize that without hunters they can't exist right? So, if hunting is being ruined, which I really don't think it is, then it would ultimately be the hunters who are at fault. Outfitters do nothing but offer a service.

Sure outfitters may have "forced" some of you off of lands that weren't yours anyway, but they also make it possible to hunt things like muskox, caribou in the northern reaches, etc.

Plus, if you think that the average outfitter is just rolling in money you are kidding yourself. Do you have any idea the expenses of setting up camps 150 miles from the nearest town? How about bringing horses to the remote parts of the Yukon or British Columbia? It is a crazy business and a lot of these guys really bust their hump.

Lastly, in Illinois, if it wasn't for the outfitters, your state would be a joke right now due to the horrible management that the state DNR has done. It has been the outfitters and private land owners keeping that state in the topslot for B&C whitetails.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Is that Right?:eek:

Dan

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Huh? Which is it in your opinion? Has to be one or the other.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

I recommend that anyone check facts for themselves, but I have come across a number of articles in Deer and Deer Hunting, American Hunter, as well as a couple other major publications that have stated that the vast majority of B&C whitetails are coming from private lands because of poor practices by hunters and the DNR allowing too many bucks taken every year. Too many Joes are travelling to ILL thinking that they are going to kill a monster on public ground, but when it looks like they might go home empty they are waxing the next yearling that comes by.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

I don't think we had any Big Bucks here before the Outfitters started.:eek: I have no doubt what you say is true. Do you have any idea how much of the Prime hunting ground in IL. is now controlled by outfitters? Does put things in their favor.;)

Dan

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Almost ALL of it!!

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

And there's going to be alot more "Joe's" traveling to public land if the land keeps being bought up and outfitted- the public land is too crowded as it is. That's why I think there should be some kind of control over the amount of acreage allowed to be outfitted. Why do you think everyone gets pissed when businesses come in and make them move. Kinda comparable to walmart putting out all the little guys.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

No, I don't think it has to be one or the other. The # of huge bucks coming from ILL are virtually all from "controlled lands". What I mean there is lands that are under QDM programs of some sort. State lands are going in the wrong direction. So, the state is doing terribly.

ILL deer definitely have the genetics (generally speaking), but the only places that they are allowed to grow to their potential is on private/outfitted land. So, where ILL may have the most potential, it is doing a horrible job of herd management IMO based on research I have seen.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

There you have it everyone, directly from the mouth of an Illinois resident. Unless you hunt with an outfitter you are wasting your money. No need to lease any ground, it all sucks. Just pay an outfitter, they are responsible for the rebound of the whitetail deer in Illinois, the very species that 20 years ago was all but extricated. Then the outfitters being the saviors they are came to Illinois, and said, "this place is a joke!". Then they waved their magic wand and said "let there be deer". And from that moment on Illinois has become one of the most populated, if not over populated deer states anywhere. Give me a break. Try not to believe everything you read in the funny papers dude.

P.S. The abbrev. for Illinois is IL.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

So, then the question is, would that land be producing the deer that it is without the outfitters strictly managing it? I don't think so.

But once again we are only talking whitetails, and I only brough up ILL as an example of outfitters at least managing things well.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

First of all, Thanks for the compliment on some of my deer. However you might be interested to know that two of those bucks are from PA. No outfitting involved, but I do work very hard to get and keep permission to hunt my honey holes in PA. Also, two more came from a Pike County property that my gang lost to a local outfitter.

Second, nothing is free I put serious time into it. I just happen to pay for my hunting in something other than cash.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

First off, Illinois is overpopulated with deer, but that has nothing to do with what I was talking about. Wouldn't an overpopulation be another sign that the management practices are not working? Thanks for helping me make my point.

I also said outfitters AND private land owners, which, and correct me if I am wrong, is the land that is leased;)I have never heard of a hunter leasing public land, but who knows what you goofy people do:D If by funny papers you mean the main publications that release whitetail research studies, then I don't know what to tell you. You are in denial because THE MAN came and stole "your" precious hunting land.

It isn't like I am gaining anything by saying that Illinois management is doing poorly. Do some research and by all means correct me if you find valid information.

One good resource for this is the November 2007 issue of Deer & Deer Hunter.

Lastly, do you hate all outfitters or just white tail outfitters in Illinois? Serious question.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

I have no idea

My first guided trip will be Ohio Turkey Hunt this year.

So far Ihave been insullted and toldI have to feed myself and sleep in the barn:eek:

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

You are exactly correct about that. The state of Illinoishas donenothing to help the management of the deer heard. I 100% agree with you on that. Even with what the outfitters are doing trying to balance the population and what not, it is still out of whack.


Its pretty much like anything else in life, some people like it and some people dont. Outfitting is a business just like anything else. Land owners have found a way to make more money off their land becausehunters are willing to pay the money. So why do you blame the outfitters for leasing the land? It is a business! If you dont like it then start your own outfitting business and go lease the land you want. Or if you have always hunted that ground then go pay the landowner more than the outfitter is willing to pay an dlease it yourself. You cant expect to have everything free forever just because you had it for a for years. Its not the welfare system! The people whoare so against outfittersare the ones who cant afford them or have lost land to them because they afford to lease the land for themselves. Its just the way it is.Its a business just like anything else. I am sure thatmany people that are against outfitters are in some business themselvesthat I can piss and moan about.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

I would absolutely love for you to tell me how one man/family is supposed to pay a farmer more than what an outfitting business can. Must have some pretty deep pockets or something.

RE: What is your view on Outfitters?
 

Maybe the thing to do is get everyone together that wants to hunt his property and pool your money. Just like any hunting club anywhere else.
My guess is that, all things being equal, most farmers would rather lease to a small group of their neighbors.

Another option is to lease the ground yourself and let a few hunters on for a fee to help you pay your lease. You keep control but the cost stays down. Of course then, technically, you'd be an outfitter yourself....one of the bad guys;)