HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

So, what if somebody developed an arrow coating (think along the lines of vaseline) - that contained either:
[ul][*]An anti-coagulant;[*]A strong sedative; or[*]A deadly poison.[/ul]
Would it have any utility in archery hunting? Would you use it? What if it guaranteed a recovery, even on a VERY bad shot.

Now, this is all hypothetical, b/c I'm sure the FDA would never trust a bunch of rednecks running hog wild in the woods with sharp arrows laced with with warfarin, ketamine and/or sodium thiopental. But, that's neither here nor there.

Some, if not all, of these drugs would make the meat inedible - but the use of such a weapon would make every shot a humane kill.

So, if you think it out - there would be some utility in certain scenarios, right?

Would it change the public opinion of archery hunting - if some product were to be developed that virtually eliminated the pain/suffering associated with a marginal/bad shot?

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

How quicky does it kill? Immediately?

I don't think it would change the public perception. They don't really want us to kill MORE deer (which we would certainly do). They don't care that we're wounding deer, either (really). They don't want us shooting at them.

Would it take away one of their arguing points? Sure. Would it open up a whole new can of worms? Certainly.

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

Cool, then we wouldn't have to worry about ethics. It's either complete miss or dead. I sure wouldn't have to practice as much. I think it's a great idea. :D:D:D [8D]

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

It's legal in Alabama..maybe some other places

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

No, I don't thinkI would use it. IMO it would cause more bow hunters (especially inexperienced) to take far and marginal shots. Bad idea IMO

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

Dude .... put it down :D

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

First of all..........coumadin doesn't make getting stuck with an arrow not hurt........lidocaine perhaps?? [8D]


Wasting the meat due to the absorption of any drugs would mean we were just shooting stuff to kill it..............in my opinion the fact that we eat what we kill will always be our saving grace.

Besides there are already laws against such things.

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

Headline news: "Local Man Dies In Hunting-Related Accident" - Billybob Clampett, 19, of Podunk, Mississippi died in a bizarre turn of events after slicing his fingers and exposing them to adeadly chemicalwhile applying aspecial coatingto his hunting arrows. Investigations are ongoing, but authorities have ruled out foul play. "This guy never was really smart to begin with. I'm surprised he didn't try to eat the stuff." - Barney Fife, Podunk P.D.

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

Illegal to lace an arrow with ANY type of chemical here in KY so no i wouldnt use it.

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

It's illegal to hunt over bait here in PA, but Gander Mountain still sells saltblocks and cracked corn by the truckload. So let's avoid the whole "legal/illegal" issue by pretending that everything goes. This discussion is only constrained by what YOU would/would not use.

Personally, if I had a product available that would ensure that every hit was a quick, humane kill - and it DIDN'T ruin the meat - I would use it. Even though I don't eat the deer I shoot (I give them all away) - it would still be a dealbreaker for me.

But, if I was dialed in on a once-in-a-lifetime deer. . . like a lot of other people, I'm sure, my opinion may be "subject to change."

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

I like Tembry would not use anything Illegal...sounds like a tough concept for you to grasp.. ??

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

Gr8 - maybe this whole "hypothetical" concept is just too much for you to wrap your brain around, so you might wanna sit this one out.

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

My arrows are DEADLY enough!!;)

No I would not use it.

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

I would not use it if legal! Here are my reasons:

The challenge would nearly be gone, and that is why I bowhunt. No need to get close, no need to worry about shooting a sharp broadhead, etc. My biggest reason is it would not be a legitimate bowkill. I'd fight tooth and nail, any pending legislation of anything remotely close to what Quick posted.

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

I think Fran has been coating his food with a product lately. Stop eating the magic brownies Fran.

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

The most utility that I've been able to come up with - are for these special-regulation urban hunts. Where the hunters aren't "hunting" per se. Instead, they are "exterminating" an overpopulation of a particular game animaland doing so in tight quarters with housing developments, businesses and roadways. Rifles aren't an option there, given the nature of the surroundings.

Given asituation like that, I could see some real benefit to something like this. Just to avoid an ugly situation in somebody's yard or out in a public area.

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

And from the title I was thinking this would be about making a coating that would increase penetration by reducing drag. You know like the “coating” Clark Griswold sprayed on the sled.

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

I think they ought to allow it. It would be a lithmus test for hunter "natural selection".

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

Quick, if I may ask.........why do you bowhunt?

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

I do this all the time. You just have to wait for the perfect shot and practice enough to make it. Most of mine go down within sight. No messy problems so far.

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

In this situation, yes, I could see it being a real benefit. But, for where I hunt in a non-suburban area, I think it would take the challenge away.

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

A lot of this goes back to the "traditional" discussion yesterday. On one hand, we're saying "let's all use dated technology, and do it like the indians did it." Fair enough. Well, the indians used this stuff, but it's taboo? I'm not seeing the line of demarcation.

One other thing to ponder: Y'all act like I'm the antichrist for suggesting this... Well... Like anything else... The legislaturehad toillegalize said conductbecause peopleWERE doing it. So this isn't coming totally out of left-field. This was a practice that had been used by some in the past.

Y'all are focusing only on the negatives (if they're actually "negatives" at all) - that it corrupts the "difficulty" of the hunt. I'm just saying - there are 2 sides to every coin.

Put it this way: You're a deer. Youhave a hunter sittingin a tree overheadwith 2 arrows. One is a regular hunting shaft. The other is coated with a mixture of anticoagulants, numbing agents, sedatives, and poison. Which one would you rather get shot with?

Answer that honestly.

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

Funny you should use Mississippi in your joke....

MS is the only state I believe that it is legal to use poison...And the meat is very edible...

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

Maybe Fran is not the one on the pipe ........ it just may be you that have answered his question seriously .....:eek: :D

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

Whoa. I definitely never knew that. What do they use on the arrows? And is it a prevalent thing, or do just a few guys do it?

Learn something new everyday.

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

Can't I just jump the string or duck the arrow:eek:[8D]


I guess by the one with the poison on it

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

I admit I am in a crotchedy mood this morning but I'm not going to say what I really would like to say about such an idea other than this............I could not, would not give any congratulations to anyone who used any such coating to take any animal.

Hunters.........our own worst enemy.:eek:

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

Its used in a pod, which slips on right behind the broadhead. The poison is a powder that puts the animal to sleep. Same thing vets use. But its very potent to hooved animals...

At one time ALL bowhunters used it... As time has gone by, less and less use it.

It's a strage law....Its legal to use it if you have it, but illegal to buy and sale it.... ;)

However, you can buy the pods in almost every bow shop. The hard part is finding the poison to go in the pods... But if you look hard enough, you can find it... I've used it in the past.....It works.

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

From the MS DNR website

Anectine (trade name) is a federally controlled drug that requires approval from the FDA to sell, purchase or use. Mississippi lacks any specific statute or regulation (on the state level) prohibiting it's use which has given rise to black market trade within the state. The improper use or sale of the drug by anyone other than a duly licensed physician trained in it's use for proper medical procedures still carries both civil and criminal penalties should the FDA or any other federal enforcement agency decide to pursue punitive action.

Succinylcholine Chloride is the chemical name for bowhunting poison.

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

Clarify please. Who all used it? Saxon Pope and Art Young and others? I've heard that Fred Bear may have used it.

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

On a side note,I believe Fred Bear invented the pod ;)

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

I can't use an arrow like that because I don't hunt in la-la land!;):eek::D

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

And one more for your reading......

The following information relates to the use of Anectine®
(succinylcholine) better known as the "Pod"or "Drugged" Arrow.
.The Effects of Anectine® on Hoofed Animals

by Joe R. Bumgardner, M.D.
Summary


Deer (& all the hoofed animal family) are stated to be approximately 1000 times more sensitive than humans to Anectine®. Anectine® must be introduced into the blood stream to have any effect. The only scenario that Anectine® would possibly allow you to harvest a deer with a marginal hit is with a flesh muscular wound where the Anectine® powder is introduced into the blood stream via absorption by the muscular blood vessels. In addition to the National Bowhunting Educational Foundation, the Pope & Young Club, The National Field Archery Association, The Professional Bowhunters Society, and The American Archery Council are opposed to the use of drugged arrows.

Information on Anectine® (succinylcholine)

As a surgeon I have access to the pure biological grade of Anectine® (succinylcholine) and in my formative years as a bowhunter I used Anectine® and had the opportunity to witness its effects on harvesting deer. I soon realized that a properly placed shot in the vital zone would achieve a quick clean harvest before Anectine had a chance to take effect (as manifested by generalized muscular twitching). It is a potent muscle relaxant used primarily as a supplemental agent in anesthesiology during surgery.

This is the 'poison' used to load the pods that are secured to the arrow. Deer (and all the hoofed animal family) are stated to be approximately 1000 times more sensitive than humans to Anectine®. A human adult takes approximate 60 milligrams to produce complete muscular paralysis while a deer will require less than 1 milligram to accomplish the same paralytic state. Anectine® must be introduced into the blood stream to have any effect. It will usually not be of any benefit on a gut shot as it is diluted by the paunch and intestinal contents and rarely gets into the blood stream via the paunch.

The only scenario that Anectine® would possibly allow you to harvest a deer with a marginal hit is with a 'flesh' muscular wound where the Anectine® powder is introduced into the blood stream via absorption by the muscular blood vessels. After careful analysis of all available information and experience, the National Bowhunter Education Foundation (NBEF) has taken the stand that it does not approve the use of drugged arrows or drug carrying mechanisms, such as the Pod. In addition to the NBEF, the Pope & Young Club, The National Field Archery Association, The Professional Bowhunters Society, and The American Archery Council are opposed to drugged arrows.

Another issue is that use or legalization of the pod on a widespread basis would lead the public to believe that our conventional bowhunting equipment is not effective enough to use without the aid of drugs. Nothing could be further form the truth, but the truth would not matter, if we send a totally different message. I personally no longer use Anectine as I don't want to give the anti-hunter any additional ammunition to assist in their efforts in banning bowhunting. I have too much passion for our sport.

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

No, I mean hunters in MS.....It was wide spread....Im sure not ALL really used it.....tongue in cheek

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

Oh Lord get the popcorn ready

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

Edit: You already answered my question

Dude, I totally thought you were bull****ing me. But I just looked it up... and you're not.... That is really crazy.

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

I knew a chick in college that was heavy into “special K”, if you use a large enough dose, it can certainly kill a person. I’m not a 100% sure, but I don’t think you could deliver enough of a dose to an animal via an arrow to kill it. I could check with my sister, she works for a vet and would probably know much more about it.

I think a much better way of hunting would be to just carry a syringe of the poison and jump out of a tree and jab the deer in the neck to deliver it. That would be hard core.

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

Is this the pod that you're talking about?

http://www.google.com/patents?id=pPMwAAAAEBAJ&dq=poison+arrow

And DC, you're right - it doesn't seem to be disputed that Fred Bear supported and may have developed a poison-release mechanism for a hunting application.

Funny how the peanut gallery was silenced when Fred Bear's name came up, eh? LMAO

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

Not so Hypothetical now is it?? I missed the State by a boundry but I knew I read of it before!

So in the future you may want to investigate you "Hypothecticals" a little better? :D;)

RE: HNI Thinktank: Arrow Coatings
 

That is not exactly what Im talking about when I say pod.. A pod is basically plastic with little pockets that hold the powder. The end of a balloon is placed over the pod and when the arrow strikes the animal, the balloon rolls back, allowing the powder to enter the blood stream.

Before the pod was invented, hunters used a broadhead that looked like a big needle. When it hit the deer, it would inject a fluid.. I have no experience with that, but have seen several of them...

The use of poison was in its hayday prior to the invention of the compound.