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RE: Arrow found in gun kill.

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ORIGINAL: Schultzy

How far up do you beleive the lungs go in the rib cage? I always figured there were 3 inches or so below the top of the rib cage.

The lungs push up against the spine. IF shot under the spine you will cut the top lobes of the lungs, not necessarily deadly everytime depending on how many blood vessels you cut. It's however NOT a void area.

RE: Arrow found in gun kill.

WOW thats a good diagram, the spine is lower than you would think.

RE: Arrow found in gun kill.

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ORIGINAL: rdy2hnt

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ORIGINAL: IAhuntr

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ORIGINAL: rdy2hnt

The arrow was most definitely ABOVE the spine as Rob stated. As far as the "hollow spot" "no man's land" stuff goes, it's a myth. I am not trying to start that great debate all over, but I can assure you after field dressing/butchering well over 100 deer and having two close friends who are wildlife biologists, if you place an arrow/bullet in the chest cavity of a deer, behind the shoulder, it is a dead deer.........period. It is possible to hit above the spine and cause nothing more than a flesh wound barring infection. If it is below the spine and good left/right the lungs are taken out resulting in a quick, clean kill.

Careful about using the words "always", "never", or "period". There are exceptions to every rule. I'm sure some of you already saw my bow buck thread, but in case you didn't, here's a pic of the shot placement onmy buck. My two-blade Gator shot bottom, My brother-in-laws pass thru G-5 shot from ten days prior above:

Hisentry hole on the other side was a bit higher, but it positively passed below the spine, just through the top of the chest cavity, and appeared to missed both lungs.The holes in the top of the chect cavity were quite evident upon dressing.No hemorage was identified at the top of either lung. Theprevious arrow andblood trail was consistant with a flesh wound.
The lungs are somewhat free-floating in the cavity, and it is possible for the lungs partially deflatedduring aheavy exhaleto move a bit within the cavity leaving a gap up top. Won't happen very often, but it certainly did in this case, and this deer was remarkably well healed for such a recent wound.

Ley me clarify, I believe a deer can survive on one lung, it has been proven, and I've seen it first hand. Having said that, I believe that the entrance wound in the above pic was most likely above the spine, missing the closest lung, resulting in a one lung hit. I will not be careful with my wording. If the entrance had been as low as the exit, the deer would have never been around for someone else to shoot. Once again, if a projectile enters below the spine and passes through the rib cage, the result is a dead deer. There is no "area" below the spine, above the lungs, that can result in a "superficial wound". As others have said, I don't think alot of people understand how low the spine lies and that the lungs take up the entire rib cage when the deer is alive. The lungs are not the size that they are when you are holding them in your hand after field dressing as they are when the deer is on it's feet.

Well, in this case you are incorrect. The arrow passed below the spine, throught the top 2" of the chest cavity, and missed the lungs. I have no need to try to make you believe something you are not willing to, just presenting the facts. FWIW, for a living I am a practicing Pathology Assistant, so I'm quite familiar with vitals and lung function, human or animal, both in the body and out.My brother-in-law who first arrowed the deer is a County Conservation Directorfor the state of Iowa and is also more than adequately experienced in biology pertaining to deer. We both spent ample time examining the carcass during and after field dressing to confirm the findings as stated above. Yes, you are correct that in normal circumstances the lungs extend to the top of the chest cavity, but due to his posture and force exerted when ducking the arrow, he did infact survive what "normally" would be a lethal hit through the chest cavity. If you check closer on the diagram provided by Rob above, you will see the lungs gradually taperdownward from the spine/top of cavity as you progress forward on the animal near the junction of the shoulder and spine. Check the picture of my deer, and you will see this is precisely the spot in which the arrow passed. In any case, I am just thankful he did survive, andI was lucky enough to have another shot at a fine mature Iowa buck.

RE: Arrow found in gun kill.

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ORIGINAL: IAhuntr

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ORIGINAL: rdy2hnt

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ORIGINAL: IAhuntr

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Fair enough. I trust you as I do many members on this board. While I have never seen anything like that in all of my years hunting, I am not a fool. You seem to have the education and reasoning to back up what you say is true. I have always been the first to encourage people to not approach anything with a closed mind. It seems I have in this case, and I aplologize. I do believe what you had happen was a "once in a million" scenario, but it does appear to have happened. I will pass this on to everyone I know, including the aforementioned biologists. I am not willing to concede on the whole "void area", but I am willing to admit you can never say never, once in a while "stuff happens".

RE: Arrow found in gun kill.

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ORIGINAL: rdy2hnt

Fair enough. I trust you as I do many members on this board. While I have never seen anything like that in all of my years hunting, I am not a fool. You seem to have the education and reasoning to back up what you say is true. I have always been the first to encourage people to not approach anything with a closed mind. It seems I have in this case, and I aplologize. I do believe what you had happen was a "once in a million" scenario, but it does appear to have happened. I will pass this on to everyone I know, including the aforementioned biologists. I am not willing to concede on the whole "void area", but I am willing to admit you can never say never, once in a while "stuff happens".

Funny thing is, the more people hear about the "mythological" void, the more people say "Hey, I think I had that happen to me once." Myself included, because I'd have never imagined that I'd lose a great 150" deer to a shot that apparently hit a "void," until I did it in 2004. Great shot, pass through about half-way up, just behind the shoulder. Nice bubbly blood, for about 50yds, then something went WRONG. No more bubbles, looked more like a flesh wound type blood. As a nurse, trauma trained and having taken care of many thoracic surgery patients, I do understand the physiology VERY well, and I, like your, could not believe this just happened. But after looking at case scenarios of people who'd collapsed their lungs, and walked around for long periods of time functioning on 1 lung, I started to reconsider a bit, after thinking about the number of patients I'd seen w/ large amounts of fluid in their chest, that still continued to carry on, albeit not in perfect health, but they certainly weren't dead, I have to start reconsidering. As I stated above, both lungs in the buck I "broke the heart" of were still in perfect condition, even though a 1 1/8 inch BH just passed through the chest cavity from top to bottom. I agree, there are still probably quite a few people who do shoot above the spine, but as noted in the original picture, many of those probably don't PASS-THRU.

RE: Arrow found in gun kill.

OH, no offensebut if you had bubbly blood with a pass through you didn't hit a void, you didn't find the deer. Bubbly blood is a lung hit and the supposed void doesn't hit the lungs. With shooting through top to bottom it would be really hard to hit both lungs. There is a lot of space between the lungs side to side and they are separated by the mediastinum.

I'm with ry on the void, there isn't one. The lungs fill the entire thoracic cavity. I would guess that 99.9% of the so called void shots are inthe epaxial muscles above the vertebrae. The one on IA's buck must not have been. My initial thought when seeing it was too high and too far ahead. Would have liked to look inside of that one. Sometimes critters defy the laws of nature and this one did.

Even if a shot goes through the chest above the lungs and doesn't cut the lungs you will have a bilateral pneumothorax and both lungs collapse. The deer dies becasue of inability to inflate its lungs. If you just graze the top of the lungs it doesn't matte if you don't cut major vessels.Now you have air intothe chest from two sources, again a dead deer fairly fast.

RE: Arrow found in gun kill.

I agree there is no "void,' what I mean is that there is a place in which you can put an arrow through on or both lungs, and still not retrieve the deer. And yes I know the bubbly blood thing. Asfor the pneumothorax causing death, not always, as I've seen in many humans. Also, often times our SHARP broadheads make nice little "flaps" when they pass through tissue, which in turn can act as valves, allowing air to enter AND escape the chest, somewhat equalizing the pneumothorax. Also the fat tissue and the thick skin of a deer makes it a little more difficult that it would be in you or I to develop a severe pneumothorax. I agree that most deer shot in this area probably will/and do die, but I've known of quite a few that didn't, but as I said, that is probably not the norm. The deer in this pic would have had me concerned had I not heard her go down, and know the angle of the shot.

RE: Arrow found in gun kill.

Well I certainly don't mean to mislead anyone with my story, I'll be the first to admit that I was extremely suprised that the deer had survived such a shot. Under normal circumstances, it would be nearly impossible not to nick the top of at least one lung if the arrow enters the upper chest cavity.
For the record I guess I'd say this: If you place an arrow behind the front shoulder and within the lower 3/5's of the deerand get a pass through shot of the chest cavity, I would expect to recover that deer. I will also say this: As a general rule, the abovemembersare correct when they say there is normally no void in the chest cavity between the lungs and upper chest wall. My incident is a very rare exeception, not the rule.
I saw him chasing does once morefour days before I actually harvested him, and in that short time he showed no signs of being a wounded deer. The OP's description of his deer's behavior with an arrowlodged thru his back shows exactly how hardy these animals can be. A mature buck with jacked up testosterone levels during the rut is truly a survival machine!

RE: Arrow found in gun kill.

Again, I mention the photos in John Jeanenney's book, Tracking Dogs for finding Wounded Game and the photos of lungs with broadhead scars. No void but a passthrough the lungs and a live deer. If you catch the upper lobes of the lungs, there are less blood vessels than lower in the same lungs, if you don't collapse or bleed out the animal, they can and do live.

I also question those that claim erroneously that they hit the "void" because they did not recover the deer, had you see the animal live again or simply dismissed the lack of tracking as a "void" shot.

I also question those that feel the lungs are actually farther back than they are. Perhaps what you thought was a "void" shot was actually a shot behind the lungs, or even forward where the lungs slope downward. Especially in the shoulder area, it's very easy to go high of the lungs, the spine slopes down extremely here too, you can be above the spine and lungs and still think you went through the shoulder/ body cavity.