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Ethics question - Tagging deer
When you shoot, hit, but do not recover a deer.....you have to go on theexperience of yourself and others as to what your next step is. So....based on the situation I had occur, yesterday.....do I tag the doe, or not (If you didn't follow the thread....we lost blood trail after 300+ yds....grid searched for 5 hours, after that)?
For this question to be answered fairly....the number of tags one has should have NO BEARING on the answer. It's either a dead deer...or it isn't....and if it's dead....it must be tagged. |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
If you didn't find it, how do you know it's dead?
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RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
In MO, it's law that you are supposed to tag any animal you hit, whether you recover them or not....
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RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
ORIGINAL: mobowhuntr In MO, it's law that you are supposed to tag any animal you hit, whether you recover them or not.... |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
ORIGINAL: GR8atta2d ORIGINAL: mobowhuntr In MO, it's law that you are supposed to tag any animal you hit, whether you recover them or not.... If I can't find the critter, I darn well can't put a tag on it. Question: Would you still go and register that tag (w/out bringing in an animal) at a game station? |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
If you can't find it (IMO) you can't tag it.
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RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
This has nothing to do with anything.....other than what is the right thing to do.
Mobo......good point about your law. I bet you see that one broken a lot.....or....it simply encourages people to keep their mouths shut if they do injure a deer. This has nothing to do with a person's harvests or anything of the sort. Furthest thing from my mind. If you can't find it......you didn't harvest it. Do you tag it, though? |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
Tag what? You dont have it. Dude you need a break
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RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
ORIGINAL: GMMAT Do you tag it, though? Your comment about harvest records confused me a bit (its early) |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
ORIGINAL: FRALEY Tag what? You dont have it. Dude you need a break |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
That is a tough question!! I've wounded 2 deer, that I didn't recover, when I was younger, I didn't tag either of them!!
My feelings are, that as long as your following your states laws, your doing the "right" thing!! Ethically, I'm torn!!! |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
GMMAT,
What would you tag? You have nothing physical to attach a tag too. No leg, no antler...nothing. Unless your state does not deal w/ a physical tag to attach to the animal. Next question: Why would you WANT to tag something that you have no idea if it even expired? If you know it's dead, go pick it up. Otherwise, you do not know it's fate...not 100% anyway. Might still be walking in the woods...stranger things have happened. Deer are tough animals and there are have numerous cases over the years where they have survived a shot from one of us hunters. You know all of this though. I know you want to do the "right" thing, but the right frame of mind is to accept the fact that unrecovered deer is just part of hunting. It happens to everyone (in most cases) unfortunately. You don't have to like it, but it is part of the deal. Here in IL, if you are checking in a deer (doe or buck) you must take measurements of certain body parts...distances between two points, etc. Need the deer to do that. I'm not questioning where your heart is because it's obvious you have great respect for the deer in which you hunt, which is a breath of fresh air. But don't beat yourself up w/ regards to ethics, as your situation is not calling for an ethical outcome. You did your best to recover a wounded deer and it didn't work out this time...next time it will. Good luck to ya... |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
No, theres nothing to tag......you didnt find it, it died of natural causes. :)
ORIGINAL: burbaust99 ORIGINAL: GMMAT Do you tag it, though? Your comment about harvest records confused me a bit (its early) |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
You guys seem to think I have some sort of ulterior motive for asking a simple question. I don't.
When you assess a situation.....you have to (in my eyes....and in the state of NC's eyes) determine in your mind (with the experienced advice from ohters, if aailable) if you think the deer you injured is alive or dead. If it's dead....it MUST be tagged. Rem's right.....in NC I don't have to physically "tag" a deer. We simply call them in. So.......is it such a stupid question? Here's one.....You shoot one and it runs into a swift river during it's death circle. It's CLEARLY dead......but do you tag this one if you can't put your hands on it? What's the difference? |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
Do me a fav and call it in and let us know what they say? State exactly what you did here and see if they head out for a bloody mary.
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RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
If you feel the deer is DEAD, and you must tag a DEAD deer. Then, I would say, tagging it is the right thing to do!!
Edit... I agree with Fraley! Make a phone call!! |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
Its automated....
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RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
Jeff do whatever brings your mind at peace. You have unlimited does right?
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RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
ORIGINAL: FRALEY Do me a fav and call it in and let us know what they say? State exactly what you did here and see if they head out for a bloody mary. |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
Fraley.....
I won;t answer your post in the same SA manner it was posed......but let's just say we can "tag" a deer without talking to anyone. I did so, this morning on the first doe. A few clicks of the mouse and I can "tag" a deer.....and all from my coffee table at 6:00AM. |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
There's the conundrum. I dont KNOW. Based on the opinions from most of the guys who posted on the thread yesterday......they seem to think she'll make it. I guess I will trust their wisdom (albeit hearing of the scenario through someone else).
It really doesn't affect ME. I do have unlimited doe "tags".....and I simply phone them in. I was just interested in what you guys thought. Ultimately....the hunter has to make the determination of whether he thinks the animal is alive or dead. |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
If I can't put my hands on it the no I do not tag it.
We found a deer that a buddy shot three days later and he was only able to tag the head. The rest wasn't going in the back of my truck. The registration station had an issue and the dnr came but we explained the situation to them. |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
Then the question is pointless. Here in Wi you have to physically tag a deer and even if it was automated
and I didnt find the deer then it is not a legal harvest because no way of knowing. I will move on now. Have a great day jeffery. ORIGINAL: GMMAT Fraley..... I won;t answer your post in the same SA manner it was posed......but let's just say we can "tag" a deer without talking to anyone. I did so, this morning on the first doe. A few clicks of the mouse and I can "tag" a deer.....and all from my coffee table at 6:00AM. |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
Ohio DNR info...my interpretation stands. If you can't physically tag it..then no tag needed.
In addition in Ohio..You cannot attempt to kill a 2nd deer (on the same day)until you physically tag the first! (Thus 1 recovered before the 2nd attempted) Deer Tagging Every person who kills a deer must immediately detach the temporary tag from their deer permit and immediately attach that tag to the dead deer at the place where it fell. The temporary tag must have the name and address of the hunter and date and time the deer was killed. Your temporary deer tag must be separated from the deer permit and tied to the deer. Attach a piece of string, wire, etc. to your temporary tag before you hunt. Carry a pen or pencil and a watch with you to fill out your temporary tag. The temporary tag must remain on the deer until it is taken to an official deer check station for permanent tagging. See Deer Check Station Locations online. Once a temporary tag is detached from the permit, it is illegal to hunt or pursue deer with a hunting device without purchasing an additional valid deer permit (See Concealed Carry information). For multiple deer permit holders, the first deer taken in the day must have been temporarily tagged before hunting or pursuing another deer. Hunters with deer permits must use the temporary tag from the permit. Landowners and tenants who take a deer on their land and any other person not required to purchase a deer permit as well as hunters who purchase a deer permit over the Internet must make and attach their own tag with their name, address, and date and time killed. This tag must be attached to the dead deer immediately in the field at the place were it fell. |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
ORIGINAL: mobowhuntr In MO, it's law that you are supposed to tag any animal you hit, whether you recover them or not.... As others stated you cant tag what you dont have in hand |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
Nothing wrong with a little SA, Fraley;) I indulge.
But...here in NC the laws are a little different...and I was speaking to my situation, yesterday. I guess the underlying question is.....Do you ONLY "tag" a deer....if you can lay your hands on it Understanding that some states allow for call-ins)? Maybe that would have been a more appropriate question. |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
Dude,
Step away from the bong for a minute! You are not going into the woods, alone, to prove to the world what a great and noble guy you are. You are going in there to get some venison and some antlers if you’re lucky. You are going to be taking part in the act of killing, if you’re good enough, and or lucky enough. In VA, (which has very similar game laws as NC, and even share laws in some areas) You are to tag an animal as soon as it is recovered. That is a key word here. If not, you would be required to tag something as soon as you think you hit something, which would get really confusing as I’m sure you can imagine. But, if you want to be a hero to deer hunting ethics, by all means, tag your arrows as soon as you find blood on them… I will tag each deer that I kill, before I transport or butcher it. And I hope to tag each one that I shoot. I have only not recovered one deer in my life, and I didn’t tag it. I think/feel that I did the right thing. Further, and I’m not trying to be offensive, but if you’re shooting does regularly, and not recovering them, you should be rethinking your hunting practices, not tagging laws. Below are tag requirements for VA. Please make note how many times the word carcass and successful hunter. They do not make any mention of not knowing the fate of an animal and tagging such an animal. In fact if you pay close attention to bullets one and three under “validation of bear, deer and turkey tags”, you’re question should be answered. Sounds to me like tagging a nonexistent animal would be illegal. Bear, Deer, and Turkey Tag Validation & Checking Requirements Validation of Bear,Deer and Turkey Tags All hunters killing a bear, deer, or turkey, unless the hunter is license exempt, are required to validate an appropriate tag on their bear-deer-turkey license (big game license), bonus deer permit, or special permit (DCAP, DMAP) at the place of kill prior to moving the animal in any way. To validate a tag, successful hunters must completely remove the designated notch area from the appropriate license or permit tag. Do not detach license or permit tags to attach to the animal. Validation only requires the removal of the designated notch area from the appropriate license or permit tag. It shall be unlawful for any person to validate (notch) a bear, deer, or turkey tag from any license or special permit prior to the killing of an animal. A tag that is mistakenly validated (notched) prior to the killing of an animal must be immediately voided by the licensee or permittee by writing, in ink, the word "VOID" on the line provided on the tag. Hunters killing an elk are required to validate an appropriate deer tag. [/ul] How to Validate a Tag and Check Bear, Deer, and Turkey Remove the designated notch area from the appropriate tag on your big game license prior to moving the animal in any way. Do not remove the tag from your license. Check your deer or spring turkey by calling 1-866-468-4263, go on the Internet at www.dgif.virginia.gov, or take it to a check station. Bears and fall turkeys must be checked at a check station. Write the check card number or the confirmation number (from telephone or Internet checking) in ink on the license tag next to the notch. [/ol] Checking Bear, Deer and Turkey Bear, deer and turkey must be checked by all successful hunters, including license exempt hunters, upon vehicle transport of the carcass or at the conclusion of legal hunting hours, whichever occurs first and without unnecessary delay. All deer and spring turkeys must be checked at a check station, by using the telephone, or the Internet. All fall turkeys must be checked at a check station. Fall turkeys cannot be checked through the telephone or Internet checking system. All bears must be checked at an official bear check station. Bears cannot be checked through the telephone or Internet checking system. It is unlawful to destroy the identity (sex) of any bear, deer or turkey until it is checked. After an appropriate tag has been validated (notched), successful bear, deer and elk hunters are allowed to dismember the carcass to pack it out from the place of kill as long as they do not destroy the identity of the sex and all the parts of the carcass (excluding internal organs) are present when the animal is checked. Deer checked by telephone or Internet, with the proper confirmation number, are eligible to be entered in the Eastern or Western Regional Big Game Contest or the Virginia Outdoor Sportsman Show. Spring turkey hunters, who plan to enter a turkey in any big game or trophy contest that requires a certified weight of the turkey, will need to check their turkey at a check station. These contests require a check card for all entries. Elk must be checked at a check station. Elk cannot be checked through the telephone or Internet checking system. [/ul] Check Stations for Bear, Deer and Turkey Check Station Locations Black Bear Check Station Locations Hunters, checking bear, deer, elk and turkeys at a check station will be given a check card furnished by the Department. The successful hunter shall then immediately write the check card number in ink, on the line labeled "check card or confirmation number" of the tag that was validated (notched) at the place of kill. Black bears must be checked at an official black bear check station. One or more bear check stations have been established in 72 counties or cities. The location of these bear check stations can be obtained from any check station, game warden, or Department office. In counties without established bear check stations, successful hunters may transport their kill to a bear check station in an adjoining county that has an established bear check station and also may have their bear checked by a game warden or by Wildlife Division staff. Department staff may be contacted by calling the VDGIF radio dispatcher (in Richmond, 804-367-1258) or nearest Department office. The successful bear hunter shall surrender, or allow to be removed, one premolar tooth from the carcass. Also the check station operator shall permanently affix a seal, furnished by the Department, to the carcass. The check card must be kept in possession with the carcass until the carcass is processed. If the carcass of an animal that was checked at a check station is left unattended, the check card must be securely attached to the carcass. Hunters needing a copy of a lost check card should call the appropriate Department region office. [/ul] Telephone and Internet Checking for Deer and Spring Turkey When using the telephone checking system: Successful hunters can check their kill by calling a toll-free number, 1-866-GOT-GAME (468-4263). Only touch-tone phones may be used (rotary phones will not work). [/ul] When using the Internet checking system: Successful hunters can check their kill by visiting www.dgif.virginia.gov and clicking on Hunting, then under Links click Check Game Online. Hunters have the option of printing a check card at the end of Internet-checking sessions. [/ul] Only deer (except elk) and spring turkey may be checked using telephone or Internet checking. Before using either the telephone or Internet checking system, you will need your big game license, a pen and a piece of paper to record your confirmation number. If you are exempt from purchasing a big game license, you will need your driver's license number or the last four digits of your social security number. Follow the instructions and provide the requested information. You will be given a confirmation number at the end of the telephone or Internet session. Write it down. Licensed hunters must then immediately write this confirmation number, in ink, on the line labeled "check card or confirmation number" of the tag that was validated. When using the telephone or Internet checking system, be sure that the confirmation number is a letter followed by ten digits. If your telephone or Internet checking session is cut off or your confirmation number is not complete, start the session again and repeat steps until the complete confirmation number is obtained. Shed-antlered buck deer should be entered as an antlered buck with 0 antler points. Hunters checking two deer on the same day may get the same confirmation number for both animals. This is okay. [/ul] Carcass Transferred or Unattended If the kill is reported using the telephone or Internet checking system by a hunter who validated a tag, no personal check card is required as long as the hunter is in possession of the carcass, However, if the carcass is transferred to the possession of another individual or left unattended, a personal check card (see example below) or Internet check card must be created and kept in possession with the carcass until the carcass is processed. If the carcass is left unattended, the personal check card or Internet check card must be securely attached to the carcass. License-exempt hunters: If the kill is reported using the telephone or Internet checking system by a hunter who is licensed exempt (for example, a landowner who did not have a license tag to validate at the place of kill), the successful hunter must create a personal check card (see example below) or print an Internet check card. The personal check card or Internet check card must be kept in possession with the carcass until the carcass is processed. If the carcass is left unattended, the personal check card or Internet check card must be securely attached to the carcass. [/ul] Example of a Personal Check Card An animal reported using the telephone or Internet checking system will require the creation of a personal check card if: The hunter is license exempt. The carcass is tranferred to someone else. The carcass is left unattended. [/ol] The personal check card may be written on any type of paper using a pen and must include the hunter's full name, date of kill and the telephone confirmation number. A check card printed from the Internet may be used in place of a personal check card. Example: · John W. Doe · November 23, 2007 · X5200185200 [/align] |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
ORIGINAL: hunter25 GMMAT, What would you tag? You have nothing physical to attach a tag too. No leg, no antler...nothing. Unless your state does not deal w/ a physical tag to attach to the animal. Next question: Why would you WANT to tag something that you have no idea if it even expired? If you know it's dead, go pick it up. Otherwise, you do not know it's fate...not 100% anyway. Might still be walking in the woods...stranger things have happened. Deer are tough animals and there are have numerous cases over the years where they have survived a shot from one of us hunters. You know all of this though. I know you want to do the "right" thing, but the right frame of mind is to accept the fact that unrecovered deer is just part of hunting. It happens to everyone (in most cases) unfortunately. You don't have to like it, but it is part of the deal. Here in IL, if you are checking in a deer (doe or buck) you must take measurements of certain body parts...distances between two points, etc. Need the deer to do that. I'm not questioning where your heart is because it's obvious you have great respect for the deer in which you hunt, which is a breath of fresh air. But don't beat yourself up w/ regards to ethics, as your situation is not calling for an ethical outcome. You did your best to recover a wounded deer and it didn't work out this time...next time it will. Good luck to ya... Couldn't agree more! |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
Good stuff, KP. I don't take it the wrong way. I knew I'd take my lumps.
If you've never injured a deer.....my hat's off to you. I've got good friends who I believe are good hunters who've lost multiple animals (over multiple SEASONS)......even multiple animals in a row (in a single season). I'm not justifying my or their actions. |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
Never heard of having to do that. You should do everthing you can to find it like Matt/PA did then if you can find it there is nothing to tag. You may want to tell the check in station for their records but keep your tag for a deer you can touch. They include a % that won't be found when they set uphow manyyou can kill in each state.
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RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
I did injure one, as I mentioned in my last post. It was on the hairy edge of dark when I took the shot (bad call on my part? Probably). I heard this buck making a very awkward hacking sound as if he were trying to vomit. I left and came back the following morning. After a few hours my dog found a pile of bile on the ground. As soon as I started rewarding him with positive attention “Good-boy’s” I heard the same vomiting sound again and my heart sunk.
Long story made short – the buck ended up on hunt club property and they would not allow me to look for it. They ended up doing a search, I have no idea if they found it, but I’m sure the buck wasn’t having a very good time. I didn’t tag him, and I wouldn’t tag him today if it happened again. You’ve asked for advice on this topic a few times, and I feel I’ve offered some good advice to you – get your dog out there. It will find the deer. In fact, one dog is probably better than fifty men, and it won’t tell anyone… Good luck man, KP |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
KP:
Problem with my dog is.....she's a retriever. She's great on scent....but ifshe saw all the deer tracks/sign/scat I did, yesterday.....she'd be really confused. I've tried using her, before. She don't know which "scent" to follow....and she's never been trained. I wish I had a tracking dog. |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
You don’t need a tracking dog. Any healthy semi-intelligent dog will work fine. All you need is a commitment form yourself. You need to bring the dog when you know where the dead deer is. If you see it crash, get down and go get the dog. Get her excited about being there. Tell her “go find the deer” and point towards where you think it is. Coax her to find it, or at least look. Once she does find it (even if you had to drag her over to it) reward the crap out of her. Give her lots of love. So much love that if anyone were to see you, you’d be embarrassed! And a treat is in order also. When you do find the deer, make sure you act wary of the deer, and work the dog up and get her to bark at it like it is a threat. That way you’ll know in the future when she’s found it if you can’t see her. I assure you, if you do this, just a few times, she will find them from now on. The dog will not grow tired of helping you work and it won’t want to call off the search or talk you into going and getting a beer because of its own agenda. And besides, it is fun to work with your dog, especially when your work pays off. Kind of like another form of hunting. |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
Keep the tag in your pocket. You will probably need it next time you go hunting.
Darrall |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
I understand the training part, KP....having trained a MH Retriever (she passed in Dec.). I'm not saying your method won't work. It likely will. I'm just not comfortable waltzing a dog through my hunting area every time I shoot a deer on the chance that she'll become a deer tracker. Maybe setting up a scenario outside my areas is a good idea, though....and I'll try this next time (I have a 24 acre woodlot that I don;t hunt.....but I could place a deer in there and achieve the same thing.....if I drug her in....leaving blood).
It's worth a try. |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
Here is NY, you have to have a license and pass a test in order to use a dog for tracking. Even then, it must be leashed. Nice part is though, once you have everything you need, you can carry a weapon into the woods at night while tracking with the dog.
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RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
ORIGINAL: GMMAT but I could place a deer in there and achieve the same thing.....if I drug her in....leaving blood). It's worth a try. Just use a little more patients with your shots, keep them in close, broad side and you will not need a dog. ;) |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
Here's a real-life situation.....
Does everyone agree that a pass-thru, gut-shot deer is a dead deer walking? If you do this and know it.....do you feel an obligation to report/tag this deer? I fully understand that some states' regs say that it must be recovered.....but this is an ethical conundrum, isn't it? If this were to occur....would you still use the tag you didn't use on this deer? |
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
no recovery, no tag from me...
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RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
I’m sorry man, but I’ve got to disagree with you on this one. To me, your statement then translates to “I’d rather not recover this one, so that I can shoot another one, that I may also not recover”. My opinion is, your first priority should be the deer that you’ve just shot. You did say once before that it isn’t about the killing. How does this add up? I’m confused.
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