RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

What's there to report? You didn't find anything. I bet some of them probably live. Not many though.

Darrall

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

KP was this addressed at me? If so....I think you jumped to a conclusion.

Let's use Matt/Pa's search as "an" example of what my question was, though. Let's say the deer was gutshot....but the same effort was put forth to recover it.....with no recovery made. The deer is dead. Should this hunter be morally obligated to tag it (or attempt to with his state)? Or...could he ethically utilize his (now) unused tag on another deer?

I'd bet a lot of money this scenario occurs multiple, multiple times every deer season.

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

Because this only says gut shot, I'm assuming it is stomach and or intestine. In that case I'd say yes, it will more then likely poison itself.

Although I find it hard to believe, this deer was apparantly shot one season by an individual, and killed the next. In any event, I am always a little more careful field dressing and butchering deer because of it.

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

who would shoot at a deer they didn't want to recover?????? kinda defeats the purpose huh?? i'd think that anyone who would shoot a deer they didn't want to recover, well, frankly, those idiots wouldn't be debating "ethics" about the situation...

or maybe i'm missing something here...

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

In a state like PA where you get but one buck tag per year I feel if in your heart & mind you know that you killed a buck then yes a moral & ethicalhunter would be done for the year.

Ineptness is not an excuse to use deer as target practice. The highest of highs you get from cleanly bagging your buck should only be over shadowed buy the shame and guilt of failing to quickly & cleanly kill the greatest of game animals we will ever get the pleasure to match wits with.

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

I’ve got a better idea. How about we just stick on this topic. You, your deer, your hunt and in your hunting area. We can move on to another scenario after we’ve finished this one.
In reference to tracking with your dog, you said… “I'm not saying your method won't work. It likely will. I'm just not comfortable waltzing a dog through my hunting area every time I shoot a deer on the chance that she'll become a deer tracker.”

Maybe I’ve misunderstood, but to me that means that recovering the animal that you just shot, isn’t as important as the next one that you’re planning to shoot. Which is why I posted the way that I did.

Please explain what you did mean, if I misunderstood.

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

You're having to assume that IWOULD recover the first animal for the way youpresented it to be true. There's a chance I could get all my neighbors and all their dogs in there and we'd find it, too. I'm not going to do that every time I shoot a deer.....but I don't think I'm less of a hunter for NOT doing that.

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

In my humble opinion, not just to jump on you Jeff, but if you weren't willing to "get all your neighbors and all their dogs in there" to find ANY deer that you just killed, then you ARE less of a hunter!

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

No, I’m not assuming anything about you actually recovering the first deer. Your statements make me believe that you agree that by using your dog, and training your dog, that you will decrease the chances of losing deer that you’ve shot in the future, and you’re deciding not to, solely based on decreasing the chances of shooting another deer in that area. I disagree with that, and I’d say that represents poor ethics. And I find it odd that these statements come from a guy, who would at least like for everyone to think has impeccable ethics. Maybe you do, but if you do, you sure aren’t getting your point across very well. Perhaps you should take a little more time to post your answers.
You’ve also made it clear that deer hunting is not about the killing, in your opinion.
I do not understand how you think, but I’m trying to, which is why I’m asking. I’m not trying to chastise you, but I am finding our conversation confusing.
KP

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

Just curious, if you had the chance why didn't/wouldn't you??

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

I agree with HAZCON if it takes an army ,then get one.
The last thing that should be on your mind isthat you might screw up some future hunts by sweeping the woods searching for a deer that is already hit.

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

You can't check it in if you can't tag it. If you couldn't find it odds are that she survived, spend that tag on another deer.

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

Okay, I didn't read them all and it could have been answered....

I pose this question then to the original thread/doe in question. You didn't find her and deep in your heart you think she's dead. Being a good guy you "tag" it and count it. What if you see her again, ID her with the injury, do you call and get your tag back? I doubt that's feasible nor do I find it feasible to tag an animal you cannot confirm as deceased.

I applaud your wanting to do the right thing but what would that be if the animal is still walking?

Okay, I'm out. ;)

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

Let's say you go dove hunting, limit is 12....You shoot one, looks like it went down...Can't find it...This bird is not "in the bag", you don't carry it out, don't have it in your posession so you don't count it....States know a certain amount of deer are going to die by natutal causes, get hit on the highway, get wounded by hunters, etc...

In NC you do not tag a deer if it's not in your posession....I'll type out what it says....

"Upon killing a bear, deer, wild boar or wild turkey, and before moving the animal from the site of kill, the successful hunter must validate the "Big Game Harvest Report Card" furnished with the big game hunting license, by cutting or punching out the validation mark that correctly identifies the big game animal harvested".............Page 51 of the NC Regs.....

If I remember correctly, you can't convict a person of murder if there is no body....

Now...Since we do get free, unlimited doe tags in NC, if you think it's important for the State's record keeping to report another doe killed, go for it...The problem is....You might be screwing up the records because that doe might be walking around this morning.....


Guys, hunting is a learning experience, every time I take a shot, I know I will kill that deer...It comes through going through what GMMAT is going through today....If I take a shot that I know I can make and things don't turn out as I had hoped, I know I did the best I could and do my best to keep the same thing from happening in the future...It's called experience and the only way you can get experience is through screwing up......

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

As for the tagging part of this issue, and the moral obligation. I still stand that the tag should not be used. BUT the moral obligation is not attached to the tag or the State DNR. It is up to the hunter. Morals are not Laws..per say..they run much deeper. I will speed, but I won't litter..type of thing..both illegal but morally I have to live with the consequence of each.

The hunter (any hunter)who has wounded a deer must re-evaluate his pursuit. In a one Buck State maybe that hunter refuses to take another buck..Maybe he hunts for that one buck (wounded?.. still alive?..carcass?)the rest of the year and never alters from that pursuit.

There is no buying of a guilt free conscious by sacrificing a tag. If this wounding troubles the hunter than he will have to deal with it emotionally on his own terms. If he feels a PRICE must be paid, let him make a donation to the charity thread or the State DNR.

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

Jeff,

I had a somewhat similar situation. I hit a deer on Monday evening. It was gutshot. I looked for it at midnight and jumped it. I looked in the morning unsuccessfully. After classes, I looked again in the evening. Just as I was getting ready to leave, I found it. This was 24 hours after the shot. Although I was not sure if it was in good enough shape, I decided to take it home, gut it out, cut a piece off, and see. First I tagged it and checked it. Our temporary tags here in TN are to be attached to the animal, which I did when I first found it. I then checked it in at the station and got a permanent tag. Unfortunately, after checking it and getting it home, my friend and I decided the meat was not in good enough shape after we cooked up a small amount.

Anyway, lest I ramble, my input on your situation is this. I made every reasonable effort to find my deer possible, and I ended up being lucky enough to have success at the last minute. If I had not found it, I would not know for certain what had happened to it. It may have lived by a miracle, it may have died, it may have been put down by someone else and kept, it may have been weak and taken down by a predator, my point is that anything can happen.

From seeing your posts on here, I am confident that you would have made every reasonable effort as well. Unfortunately, you just didn't happen to be successful in finding it this time. I think you can be at peace that without a carcass or any physical evidence of the animal, you are not obligated legally or morally to tag the animal. You simply have no way of knowing where it is or what "exactly" happened to it.

Jon

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

You guys seem to think I have some sort of ulterior motive for asking a simple question. I don't.

When you assess a situation.....you have to (in my eyes....and in the state of NC's eyes) determine in your mind (with the experienced advice from ohters, if aailable) if you think the deer you injured is alive or dead. If it's dead....it MUST be tagged.

Rem's right.....in NC I don't have to physically "tag" a deer. We simply call them in.

So.......is it such a stupid question? Here's one.....You shoot one and it runs into a swift river during it's death circle. It's CLEARLY dead......but do you tag this one if you can't put your hands on it? What's the difference?

_____________________________

"It's not about us (hunters). What we do is about THEM (the deer)"

"You could build a city in the distance between "passing" and actually putting an animal on the ground. "

Jeff

1190223 -- 9/8/07 How do you tag a deer that you did not find? You can not fill a tag out and send it to the check station for a deer your not 100% sure is dead! And in this case above you saw the deer die so you would tag it!

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

I'm sorry.....but from a couple of the posts, here.....I think we need to determine what constitues a "valid effort" at recovering an injured animal. "I" think I used the resources available to me, yesterday.....and that I made a "valid effort" to recover (or at least discern if it was still alive) her.

My shop owner (who's been deer hunting for more than 20 years) told me the entire blood trail that he wasn't convinced the deer was dead (based on color of blood; amt. of blood; etc...). We searched the woods for more than 7 hours for a deer that he didn't think was dead. How much more should I have done? That's an honest question. I used every available resource to me that I had.....except a dog that has no training in such pursuits (other thna the two times I've used her in the past......with one of those times resulting in me recovering the deer the next morning.....w/out her).

What more should I have done? What would you have done, differently?

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

[hr]

[hr]
I'm sorry.....but from a couple of the posts, here.....I think we need to determine what constitues a "valid effort" at recovering an injured animal. "I" think I used the resources available to me, yesterday.....and that I made a "valid effort" to recover (or at least discern if it was still alive) her.

My shop owner (who's been deer hunting for more than 20 years) told me the entire blood trail that he wasn't convinced the deer was dead (based on color of blood; amt. of blood; etc...). We searched the woods for more than 7 hours for a deer that he didn't think was dead. How much more should I have done? That's an honest question. I used every available resource to me that I had.....except a dog that has no training in such pursuits (other thna the two times I've used her in the past......with one of those times resulting in me recovering the deer the next morning.....w/out her).

What more should I have done? What would you have done, differently?

_____________________________

"It's not about us (hunters). What we do is about THEM (the deer)"

"You could build a city in the distance between "passing" and actually putting an animal on the ground. "

Jeff

1190223 -- 9/8/07

[hr]

[hr]

Jeff,
I think you did a great job in trying to find her! I personally think maybe a few days away from hunting will do you some good you took your lumps this year and sometimes its good to step away for a little then get back to it! This is just my opinion dont take it personally. I have had my share of rough times down to where I wanted to quit bowhunting! You did a hell of alot more than alot of people would. I really commend you for the RESPECT of the animal your hunting that you have! That is something else not many people have. Godd luck and good hunting!!
Tim

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

You did enough man. You did enough.You went beyond what some hunters wouldn't of think of doing. I'd call you to help me track anyday. Go shoot your bow, get yourself back on track, and go hunt!

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

I would probably be out there looking for her again today instead of on here asking us what we think. We can't tell you the outcome! Sure the meat is spoiled but at least you know if you killed her or not! Personally 7 hours isn't that long to look for a deer, I also think you put too much trust in you "shop owner"!

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

Twil...

I'm going to do some extensive practicing, tonight (from a treestand)......I have to. I'll be out of the woods until Friday evening....maybe even Saturday. I shoot my bow a lot, though. Anyone who knows me knows this, too.

I appreciate the support....but I understand the critics, too. Before this season....I would have probably been less tolerant of such events (with others). If I thoughtI was doing something wrong....or wasn't prepared.....I'd stay out of the woods. Hunting is supposed to be fun.....and it isn't much fun, right now (the outcome).

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

So you trust no one, BHF? I tend to lend credence to others advice who are more skilled at something than I.

Itook a vacation day, yesterday. I have other responsibilites besides searching for a deer that people (here and on the scene) tell me is not dead. I honestly feel like I gave the situation a "valid effort". I'm sorry if you don't feel that way.

I'm remorseful, yes.....but I'm done on the subject.

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

Twil...

I'm going to do some extensive practicing, tonight (from a treestand)......I have to. I'll be out of the woods until Friday evening....maybe even Saturday. I shoot my bow a lot, though. Anyone who knows me knows this, too.

I appreciate the support....but I understand the critics, too. Before this season....I would have probably been less tolerant of such events (with others). If I thoughtI was doing something wrong....or wasn't prepared.....I'd stay out of the woods. Hunting is supposed to be fun.....and it isn't much fun, right now (the outcome).


[hr]

Jeff,
I just didn't want you to take my post the wrong way. I don't doubt your a good shooter hopefully one day we will shoot together, just saying man your in a rut and we all go threw it. Hunting is fun, until this crap happens I know I've had sleepless nights where my wife laughs at me(she dont understand) Good luck and I don't doubt your not doing anything wrong, you will be fine!! One more question were these deer shot with your Rage heads?
Tim

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

You're telling me that 7 hours of looking is enough? Give me a break!

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

From what you've told us I see the weak link in your chain as "you" .I know you have the best of equipment and you shoot allot, but that alone does not make you a good deer hunter.
You seem to make mistakes before you take the time to realize they are just plain bad judgments on your part.
Hunting anything but shade in 90 degree weather is poor planning.
Shooting two deer without recovering the first is just irresponsible in my mind.
A big part of it being irresponsible comes from your past failures at quick recoveries this year and not learning from them.
And last but not least much has been written about "effective range".
You need to take a serious look at yours,you are not having much success at 20 plus yards, Maybe 10 to 15 would be a good starting point.

I wrote some suggestionshere because you asked what I would do differently ,and hopefully they will help you in youradventures.

Good luck, Jim

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

You asked what I would of did differently, I replied what I would do and have done in your situation! I never said that I don't trust anyone! I should of said you put to much trust in your shop owner thinking the deer is still alive. If he thought that I would of said thanks for the help tracking, I owe you one and would of kept on looking and maybe even found her, learned something on my own which in return would make me a better hunter!

I used to thinking about getting out and in a tree to hunt every chance I got, now I think about what happens if I do shoot a deer, the weather, the time, and searching its all part of the responsibility!

And yes 7 hours isn't enough time!

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

My tag doesn't get used unless I find my deer. Simple to me.

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

I would focus on this if it were me. I have had my share of mistakes, in 1991 I decided on the 20yd rule.

Being the shot on your doe and the guts was hanging out, that tells me you might be hitting to far back. I think you are missing the lung on the closes side, but I do not know. One thing I do is look at the lungs and where I hit or did not hit. I make a note how far deer went after the shot.

Maybe it's just me, but I find arrow passingthrough both lungs and over the heartare the quickest kills I have. Every deer I have hit in this location is under 50 yds. Every deer1 lung or liver is 150 to 200 yds. Both lungs and a little back 50-80 yds. Closer tothe heart, the better IMO.

IMO a deer qrt away you have to aim at the last rib is on too much of an angle. Qrt away shots are great, but I like the 3rd rib in.The lungs are more forward than must think. An exit hole in front oppositeshoulder is better than behind IMO on the angle I have seen in your picture.

Look ata picture of a deer. Notice all the blood vessels around the heart. This is why I like to shoot right over the top of it. If I miss low, great. If I have to shoot at the last rib, I am going to have a hard time hitting whereI want.

Take this for what it is worth, just what I have found what works for me.

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

This is NOT pointed at you Jeff, but in general over the entire hunting community.

IMO, too many people will wound a deer and after not recovering they come to the consensus that the deer is not dead. It helps put their mind at ease but it does nothing to correct the problem. These people are simply hindering their learning curve. If they are never going to realize the true effect of their poor shots then they have no real reason to correct them. I know that there are deer shot every year that can't be recovered as the deer never die, but I would be willing to be that MANY more die when the hunter believes that the animal "will be fine". My train of thought on this is.. "if I was shot in the same place, what type of shape would I be in?"

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

WOW I just read all 7 pages of this thread and my head is spinning.

I personally would NOT use a tag unless I recovered the animal.

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

If I shoot a P & Y, dont recover it, but tag it,can i enter it in therecord books?

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

If you shot a P & Y would you give up looking after 7 hours?

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

Excellentreply Germ. Very well put and even spelled pretty well .

My only other thought to add, is how high are you perched..I know Rob likes to get way up there..are you creating tough angles by going too high and perhaps being too close to the trail.

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

If everyone was telling me the deer was alive......yes.

The first deer I ever shot was hit and left a very similar blood trail to this one. He is the biggest bodied deer in my woods that I've seen. I looked for 5 hours, that night (blood trail petered out at about 200 yds from POI).....and about 3-4 hours the next morning in the rain. Knowing what I know, now.....(and I had good help, that night....including my 2 labs).....I'd have probably done the same thing.....but I would have thought the deer would live. I shot this buck, last year, on 9/12.....and I saw him, again, the day after Thanksgiving. He was just fine.

On 9/12 of last year....I had never killed a deer.

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

If you can't find it you cant tag it. It's all part of the archery hunting game imo. Everyone strives to make the perfect shot but things go wrong and you have to be willing to accept that. I applaud you for you're efforts. I'm sure next time it'll work out great for you. Good Luck.

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

I'm not reading all of these but I'd say NO. As long as you made a reasonable effort to recover the deer. I think my State has that requirement in the law, but follow your State's laws. Each hunter should make a good effort to recover the deer. I don't think they should be required to make a HEROIC effort, though. If you feel compelled to, then do so. Without a recovery there isn't a certainty. I am also assuming you are not just shooting and forgetting in order to have more chances to shoot deer, which is the whole point of the reasonable effort clause. I've seen it go both ways: one deer I shot I saw two weeks later walking around, another one my Dad shot was found dead months later. I've heard stories of people going to incredible lengths to recover a shot animal and though I'm impressed I don't feel compelled to spend multiple days looking for a single deer (though I have done it before). You have unlimited tags so if you feel it's a definite kill and the info will help the DNR have more complete record then what harm is there in checking it in? I'd ask your DNR agent though, you may be breaking the law by "falsifying records". Tricky subject.

BTW, FWIW in Africa, I believe,if you draw blood you pay the trophy fee even if you don't recover the animal. Of course with the number of predators there that policy is understandable.

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

No deer found = no tag used for me. If it makes you feel better by all means register the deer. Ask yourself this though....if you only had one tag all year, (by tagging a deer it ends your season)would youthink twice about tagging a deer you don't know is dead?

RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
 

Wow! I did not know that, that's veryinteresting.

It sure would give DNR offices more detailed info on their deer herds.
I would like to see that same info be brought to the attention of the DNR's but without huntershaving to pay for it. I think you could inform your DNR officethrough a hunters survey at the end of the season of how many deer you hit and never recovered. Or in some cases deer you hit, never found then managed to harvest later on in the season.That way the samedeer wouldn't be tagged twice. I would imagine for some people in some states it could get quite expensive for them doing it the way MO. does. But I like where their going with it.