RE: Light arrows bad choice for hunting
 

I can't offer any words of wisdom due to the lack of experience. However,I would love to have the shot back that I took this fall and replace it with my heavy 2117's to see if I would have punched through that shoulder blade.

I would like to see a relative comparison between different levels of KE.It means nothing to me to say that an arrow has 50lbs of KE vs. one that has 45 lbs.What is the difference?How much energy is 5lbs of KE.

I know one thing, I would much rather take my wifes best shot than Evander Holyfields!

RE: Light arrows bad choice for hunting
 

I could dodge Evander....but yer wifes too fast for me

LMAO :-P

** I almost got him but I refuse to take a marginal shot **

RE: Light arrows bad choice for hunting
 

I ran the numbers on my setup on Jackson's site.

365 gr arrow at 270 fps:
Drop KE Momentum
10yds: - 3" 57# .430#/sec
20yds: -10" 55# .423#/sec
30yds: -23" 54# .416#/sec
40yds: -41" 52# .410#/sec

540 gr arrow at 223 fps:
Drop KE Momentum
10yds: - 4" 58# .528#/sec
20yds: -15" 57# .523#/sec
30yds: -34" 56# .517#/sec
40yds: -60" 55# .513#/sec

The most glaring difference to me is the trajectory. From 10 to 20 yds there's a 5" difference. From 20 to 30, 11". I'd say at "normal" hunting range (30 yds & in), it could make a difference. A good hit could become a marginal hit, if range estimation is off a few yards. The KE is a wash. There is a noticeable difference in momentum, which I feel more closely relates to penetration. But not enough to be of concern, IMO. The loss is not negated, to a big degree, with the heavy arrow. The difference in trajectory (11" between the two at 30 yds) is huge, to me. Could that be enough to negate the increase in momentum by the changed trajectory? By that I mean the arrow impacting at a steeper angle, with the heavy arrow. This I'm assuming is shot from ground level. The only advantage I see for the heavy arrow is possibly it's use by the person that doesn't practice much. The slower setup will be more forgiving for him/her, possibly. Beyond that, I see my current setup (365 gr at 60# draw) as ideal for me. At the ranges I hunt, 25 yds & in, either will work. But lighter works better for me.



Phil.
&quot;Could you guys be quiet, my dad's trying to shoot.&quot;<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

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RE: Light arrows bad choice for hunting
 

I guess I am Unable to use my Darton maverick with my 29.5 inch arrows at 400 grains speeding along at 292 fps at 65 lb draw. Well I got complete penetration on my buck last year at 35 yards and penetrated a second buck through both shoulders even though it did penetrate both shoulders it did stay in the deer but he dropped on impact. The arrow was hanging out the off side. But who cares he dropped in its tracts. YOu can have your heavy arrows I will keep my lighter arrows. It flat out works great and have proof on my wall.

Brian

RE: Light arrows bad choice for hunting
 

For one thing the basic Ke formula is sort of flawed in that it does not take into account the amount of momentum something has, which is why a heavier object retains more energy down range, it has more momentum. And velocity is not the more prominent factor in the formula. A heavier object moving at the same speed will always have a higher value. Velocity does not become a real asset until you get into high velocities like 2 or 3 thousand fps

And vanes actually start to overtake feathers at around 50 yards, and it is even farther the faster your bow is. But the lighter weight usually makes up for it and you don't notice any way. I can shoot out to 60 yards with vanes and feathers and the feathers only hit slightly low, they also have more FOC, so that may be the reason also. 4 inch feather with a slight offset by the way. Larger feathers with a radical helical would slow down much faster I am sure.

Those are my observations any way.

Paul

RE: Light arrows bad choice for hunting
 

lol good point Paul I forgot to bring that up lol

now that youve chosen an arrow

and youve chosen feathers or vanes

now choose straight, offset, or helical fletching

straight - less wind drag, less arrow control...so faster downrange with more KE

offset - abit more drag, abit more control...so slower downrange with less KE

helical - alot of drag, much more control...even slower downrange with even less KE


break out the calculators this is getting fun :-) hahaha

next step : choosing 4&quot; or 5&quot; fletching :-P

** I almost got him but I refuse to take a marginal shot **

RE: Light arrows bad choice for hunting
 

First off, you will not gain 26% of ke, I do not care what the “Program” tells you. Those numbers are wrong. 10% change is about the norm. Do not make such a decisive decision after only a few hours on the internet. I will gladly give up 10% of ke to use one pin out to 30 yds. I am no fool, and I could lock up your hard-drive if I sent you pictures of all the bucks that will attest to the fact that a light set up is absolutely deadly on deer. I shoot a 365 grn arrow and produce almost 67 ft. of ke. at 70lbs. You are suggesting I need to almost triple my arrow weight to be ethical?????. That is a foolish statement.
One of the eights I shot this year was at 35 yds. with expandable head, double lung, entered through rib, no pass through because it busted into far leg bone. Deer dropped in its tracks.

Here are some formulas for you:

Light + fast = dead deer

Heavy + slow = dead deer

There are very good arguments for both, and both setups are great hunting setups.

My preference, light, fast and flat.

RE: Light arrows bad choice for hunting
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
beprepn---ok, bear with me and help me out buddy--I'm not a math PhD. Regardless of the bows KE, or I assume its potential to store KE to be passed to the arrow upon release, the KE formula of mass X (velocity)2/450240 would apply to the released arrow regardless of what the bows ability to store KE was. As we are debating the performance of the arrow downrange in terms of speed&trajectory vs KE&penetration, the KE formula/arrow would be the focus. Most of us would agree a heavier arrow has the ability to transfer more of the KE stored in the bow, but even so, based on the KE formula, velocity is the heavier weighted factor in the equasion. So if the lighter arrows velocity is greater, and you already have enough KE for your hunting purpose, is not the velocity/trajectory consideration more important?

...

Is a hunting arrow not most efficient when it contains the minimum KE to give you a pass-through on the animal while maintaining the flattest trajectory? Dave

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Lazyarcher,

One of the effects of the arrow choice is that the heavier arrow is more efficient at transferring energy from the bow. This is a real effect which is 11% for the bow for which I did the calculations. As you point out, since the formula for KE depends on velocity squared, this isn't a big change in velocity, but I think to include it is the fair way to do the comparison -&gt; we are trying to get all the effects of changing the arrow weight.

And I agree that energy left in the ground on the other side of the deer is wasted - for that shot. For most all of our bows, I think that it is mainly on a bad shot that the extra momentum down range would be important.

beprepn

RE: Light arrows bad choice for hunting
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
First off, you will not gain 26% of ke, I do not care what the “Program” tells you. Those numbers are wrong. 10% change is about the norm.

...

Here are some formulas for you:

Light + fast = dead deer

Heavy + slow = dead deer
...

My preference, light, fast and flat.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Rackattack,

I used 11% change in KE at launch, but the heavy arrow also slows down less -&gt; it has more momentum which makes it penetrate the air better as well as penetrating the deer better.

Light + fast + twig = wounded deer

Heavy + slow + twig, and a prayer answered = dead deer

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> &lt;&lt; There are very good arguments for both, and both setups are great hunting setups. &gt;&gt; <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

I'd agree, I'd just say that the heavy (I'd call it medium) weight arrow, the 9 grains per pounder, is a bit better.

beprepn