RE: Light arrows bad choice for hunting
 

david, I think you need to up that to at least 10 grains per inch so that deer is deader when you shoot it. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Light arrows bad choice for hunting
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Umm... ... Good Lord, how much penetration does it take to be ethical? <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

You are exactly right on all counts!

However, if they had asked you at the bow shop the following question, what would you have chosen?

Do you want an arrow with a 50 penetration factor (at 30 yards) and an effective range of 38 yards or a bow with a 62 penetration factor (at 30 yards) and an effective range of 35 yards? That's the trade which the bow manufacturers are obscuring by their marketing on speed. Tiny increases in effective range for substantial decreases in penetration.

RE: Light arrows bad choice for hunting
 

The problem I have with it all is everything is always based on a 30 inch draw... which I can't get... all bows are different.... if we have to have the maximum penetration we ALL have to go back to cut on impact broadheads. No more tropcar points or mechanicals or any of those new fangled things. Cut on impact only. I'll take my present setup with it's underweight arrow(according to the definition posted here) that has NEVER failed to sail completely through more whitetails than most people will shoot in a lifetime at distances to 40 yards. Some time we just get to analytical when we should be thinking.... &quot;if it ain't broke..... it&quot;.

RE: Light arrows bad choice for hunting
 

Dave,

I think the hole reason it was posted to get max performance before you throw on a head to begin with regardless of type.....that was on one of the earlier posts.


Post cave man bows still work today, Ak can prove that!

equipment reliability I would like to hear your definition Jerry. Btw, you have yet to stop by, is that my hint ;)! Reason I ask as you know what I shoot, I know what you shoot....both are reliable, from our first bows to our current choice of bows which are worlds apart, not to mention arrows and gadgets we both use for our vastly different styles of bowhunting. And btw, shot placement is critical. You of all people know this! The majority of the folks here dont get to chase what we do in there lifetimes. Not saying our stuff is better, but it definatly should be well tweaked for max penetration for obvious reasons and caribou is hardly a good representation of that. We both can shoot through ribs, shoulders, and still burry in the frozen tundra on the other side.

My biggest deal is getting the proper arrow out of a bow. If it dont fly perfect, you loose penetration. That IS a HUUUUUGE factor in itself all other things considered. But most bowhunters today dont factor in the other equations. Shooting a 55-75 goldtip at foam, vs a 24/64ths woodie, even if the KE and Mom was the same, the GT would out penetrate strictly due to its size alone, not to mention stiffness coming from its design. Heck most bowhunters today dont even CARE about the other factors as what works on a whitetail will work on Moose.....one of the biggest reason we have a IBEP class mandatory participation on bow only hunts. I think it should be required for ALL bowhunters and we as bowhunters should have a seperate lisc (as in most states) to signify it. Or say a 5 buck archery tag.

The deal is there is more to penetration then just grains per pound....speed....Kinetic Energy....Momentum. Almost to many factors to the equation that any one reasoning is right or wrong. A perfect example would be in Arcticbowmans case and mine, we are 2 complete opposite ends of the spectrum in the bowhunting relm! Should it matter...nope, but it does! Our choice of equipment and gadgets to assist us in what we do all factor in to the final out come in the penetration world

What I think should happen is a video explaing ALL the factors that can be or are a part of the total package. Its coming, its just a matter of time. Something that truely goes into details that most care not to ask or even have the desire to understand.

So just should you worry about penetration.....heck ya! Ya never know when you're going to need it the most!

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: Light arrows bad choice for hunting
 

My statement about my current set up was a bit missleading I guess. I don't actually hunt with that set up. I was setting my bow up for target shooting, I was not concerned with the speed or Ke at all, just good flight and a comfortable draw. I decided to run it thru the chrono just for the heck of it and get some data to check the Archery Program. It seemed like the figures it was giving me were a little slow. And they were if you go by what is in the data base for my Darton yukon bow. But once I used my actaul arrow speeds and weights at different draw weights to figure a new performance rating it was pretty darn close. Darton bows must be faster than what they rate them. And like I said, with the heavier arrow the number goes up. I checked my notes and it was 1.9 for the 312 grn arrow and 1.447 for the 456 grn arrow. The data base lists it as 1.17 for the IBO performance factor and 1.25 for the AMO factor. Which would actaully be pretty close if I where shooting arrows at those weights( 5 grn/lb IBO and prbably 9 grn/lb for the AMO).

I shot both arrows both at 42 lbs and at 55 lbs and figured them up both ways, it was the same so I lost no effeciency from having my limbs bottomed out to being turned all the way out.

Like I said, I don't actually hunt with those specs. For hunting the bow was set at around 65 lbs with 405 grn arrows tipped with Steel Force heads(non serrated). I just meant that I feel that my current set up would be enough to take a deer with those heads at around 20 yards. My limit is 25 yards for hunting right now. If I could shoot 90 ft/lbs of ke and still be able to draw the bow I would do it! You may not need it, but it sure don't hurt.

I hope that clears things up a little.

Paul

Edited by - Paul l mohr on 12/31/2002 19:03:13

RE: Light arrows bad choice for hunting
 

Dan <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle> I figured that would get you fired up! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

We could say with that 5 yard drop at 30 yards, and I misjudged the yardage by 7 yards, so I aimed high, that increased drop because of my light arrows would actually benefit me in that situation! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Could we get to the point of calling archery a game of luck??? <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

I do realize placement is critical, I learned that from shooting a POS bow that was out of tune when I started archery. It was at 68 pounds, 30&quot; draw and I was shooting 31&quot; 2314 eastons. I can honostly say I had nearly no luck with that set up, but with a lighter poundage bow, lighter weight arrows, and gulp, dare I say, mechanical broadheads, I have had near flawless performance.

Caribou are bigger than whitetails, so I think they are justified in this conversation being that the majority the people here only chase those.
ArcticBowMan's Hunting Photo's

RE: Light arrows bad choice for hunting
 

6ptsika is right on. I killed 3 deer this year with a puny 6.5 gr/lb setup. Pass thru at 10, 15, and 31 yds. The deer traveled respectively: 30, 70, and 20 yds. Should I get a heavier arrow? Will that be better? Guess I've been doing this bowhunting thing wrong for the last 11 years. I feel so bad........ I've got one thing to say: shot placement.

RE: Light arrows bad choice for hunting
 

an average sized caribou isnt that much larger then an average sized caribou! Bou are stocky and more rounded, short legged, thin and narrow rib boned. Whitetails are thinner but &quot;taller&quot; if you will, a little wider in the ribs on average but about the same thickness. Both are still thin skinned, thin boned, easy to penetrate creatures regardless of equipment chosen.

That bow wasnt a &gt;POS&lt; it was on of the tops of its time. Even then look at what people use today. Fence posts Literly and AK can attest to that! Ya it may have taken more work to get perfect performance out of that bow, it however was capable of achieving such a standard as you hold today.

Naw, not worked up, quite frankly I laugh. Just when you think you have it all figured out, something happens usually unexplainable! Even those 75fps of KE can fail! I wish we had a video of the 3 arrows inside a moose the 3rd being the final and killing shot. The other two one was from that fall, the other we figured from the fall before by the way it had healed over. One of which failed miserably, the other was just bad to begin with. This is not the first animal I have seen with a arrow wound. The animals were fine and if you didnt shoot the bull, you would have never known it was &quot;wounded&quot;.

If ya'll want another view on penetration and what attributes to more or less, look no farther then Col Bodingtons work. One of his latests articles is published here. Ya its rifles, but in theory the concept is the same. Read it and you'll understand. Also if you can get your hands on older books be it rifle or bowhunting related, they usually talk about penetration to some degree and the factors that attribute to a complete pass through or bouncing arrows off a block of jello!

Just a little FYI to the folks who are really interested in some penetration information. There is going to be more published here soon through the IBEP and NBEF. It will be awhile, I am sure to the tune of 4-6 months, as things are just getting written. All the data has been collected and I am sure we all will be interested in its outcome. Everything from whitetail to Ak/yukon moose are in there.

There are some older studys done, one specifically being The Natal study. If you are interested Jerry, you can thumb through it at my house as it isnt going past my doors. To many copies to pay to redo and for me to precious to let go. There have been other studies done...check them out, the information is free!

RE: Light arrows bad choice for hunting
 

I got this info off of this website.....makes sense to me.


http://www.huntersfriend.com/bowselection.htm




Our Test Results - Chronograph (speed) Test

FPS
Trail 1 Trial 2 Trial 3 Trial 4 Trial 5 Average
250G Arrow 294 294 295 294 294 294.2 FPS
300G Arrow 274 272 273 273 273 273.0 FPS
350G Arrow 256 256 257 255 256 256.0 FPS
400G Arrow 242 242 242 243 242 242.2 FPS
450G Arrow 231 231 231 230 231 230.8 FPS
500G Arrow 220 219 220 220 219 219.6 FPS
550G Arrow 211 210 209 210 209 209.8 FPS
600G Arrow 202 201 201 202 202 201.6 FPS
650G Arrow 196 195 195 195 194 195.0 FPS

Clearly we can see that lighter arrows indeed fly considerably faster. So where's the trade-off? Faster is better right? In most cases yes. But if you're concerned about Kinetic Energy or knock-down power, a heavier arrow may provide a little more penetration. Is the loss in speed worth the added kinetic energy? You decide. Look at the same chart - converted into kinetic energy (ft-pounds) instead of feet-per-second.


Kinetic Energy Developed by Arrow Weight

FT-POUNDS
Trail 1 Trial 2 Trial 3 Trial 4 Trial 5 Average
250G Arrow 47.99 47.99 48.32 47.99 47.99 48.06 ft-lbs
300G Arrow 50.02 49.30 49.66 49.66 49.66 49.66 ft-lbs
350G Arrow 50.95 50.95 51.34 50.55 50.95 50.95 ft-lbs
400G Arrow 52.03 52.03 52.03 52.46 52.03 52.12 ft.lbs
450G Arrow 53.33 53.33 53.33 52.87 53.33 53.24 ft-lbs
500G Arrow 53.75 53.26 53.75 53.75 53.26 53.55 ft-lbs
550G Arrow 54.39 53.87 53.36 53.87 53.36 53.77 ft-lbs
600G Arrow 54.38 53.84 53.84 54.38 54.38 54.16 ft-lbs
650G Arrow 55.46 54.90 54.90 54.90 54.33 54.90 ft-lbs


As you can see, the gains in KE are relatively minor. To gain a few more ft-pounds of KE, you'll have to sacrifice a considerable amount of arrow velocity. Of course, every bow will not perform exactly as our test bow did. However, you can expect similar gains and losses in performance with most modern compound bow models. Consider the trade-offs carefully.


Performance Summary: Doubling Your Arrow's Mass
300g Arrow (5 g/p/p) 273.0 fps 49.66 ft-lbs of KE
600g Arrow (10 g/p/p) 201.6 fps 54.16 ft-lbs of KE
LOSS of Velocity: 26.2% GAINS in KE: 8.3%

And while some archers stubbornly stick by their hefty &quot;big-game&quot; log style arrows, an increasing number of archers are discovering that lightweight arrows can be just as effective for hunting large game - perhaps even more effective. And it should be noted that a properly placed arrow - impacting with 49.66 ft-lbs of KE would easily generate a clean pass-thru on a Whitetail Deer or Elk. So with respect to kinetic energy and big-game hunting, the practical difference between an arrow generating 49.66 ft-lbs and another generating 54.16 ft-lbs - would really be how far the arrow sticks in the dirt after passing through the animal.