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I wont be the one to start the argument, as I believe in both creation and evolution.

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No arguement ... discussion .... how do you believe in both? [&:]

I don't believe we have conclusively established evolution. I would also note that scientist have said in the case of many animals, the size of the brain is not directly related to intelligence. Evolution cannot be directly observed, so therefore it can only be a theory.

Exactly ...... good preaching marcus!

Okay, instead of calling it Evolution, let's call it "Physical Change."

Is that a term that sits well with everyone?

Seriously guys, if this is gonna turn into a mudslinging match as to whether evolution is real or make-believe, I'll just ask one of the mods to lock it down. Stay focused fellas, and remember, if you have fundamental differences with this discussion, just leave it be. Try to be respectful to everyone else's views and opinions.

quik ...shut it down then and start over ...you opened the can with your definitive statement ....only you can prevent forest fires!

I won't even adress your confusion

What has physically changed in the whitetail deer? I'm unsure of any major changes in physical attributes. If there were only 1000 people in the united states...6' tall would be an accomplishment. Now you don't stand out in a crowd unless your 7' tall. Get my point. we see bigger better deer because we have more of them. As far as evolution....As soon as deer start growing camoflaged fur, than we'll talk. Until than

Same as it ever was!

Can open...worms everywhere.

Quoting the article referenced on page 2 - "What the Canadian scientists showed is the latest in a series of examples of man-promoted evolution. Perhaps the earliest well-studied instance is that of the `pepper moth' of England. The English peppered moth comes in light and dark colours, both under genetic control. Before the industrial revolution, which started in early 18th century, the dominant form was the white coloured moth with dark `peppery' spots on its wings. As it rested on the birch tree, it blended and camouflaged with the bark of the birch. As the industrial revolution began and factories belched out coal smoke, the birch bark darkened with soot. This made the moths visible to predator birds and the population shifted from the white to the dark coloured moths. Eventually the dark form became predominant and the white moth rare. In recent times with modern methods of pollution controls, the air in England is clearer, so are the birch trees and the lighter coloured pepper moths have increased in number as the dark ones fade."

Whitetails have a bunch of quirky traits - floating hair, dewclaws, shedding antlers, complex olfactory systems, excellent night vision, keen hearing, glands all over the place, whiskers, specialized teeth, ruminant stomachs, stilt-like legs, adaptive breeding system, etc... I wonder if any of those traits could have been spawned by a specific event or stimuli, like the Pepper Moth?

Could antler restriction laws have an affect of "accelerated evolution" on a herd?

Real funny Dave. Remember, I know where you live.

As was stated earlier, deer have ADAPTED to changes, but their has been no evolutionary change. Stating evolutionary theories - as if they were fact - is just plain wrong. If you want to state that the theories make this claim, I'm fine with that.

I don't quite understand what you're trying to say there Dave. Adaptation is a behavioral change, which is wholly different than a PHYSICAL change.

Deer have changed physically. For example, I'd wager that the dewclaw was, at one time, an integral part of the hoof, as opposed to our current herd, where that part of the hoof has essentially become obsolete.

Selective breeders claim to be able to grow deer with larger antlers from certain genetic bloodlines. It's a fact, evidenced by both their results, and the tens of millions of dollars spent annually in whitetail breeding and research. These guys aren't just wasting money for fun.

These species are actually changing, but in what ways?

Are we ultimately harming the species through selective breeding for a single genetic trait (large antlers)?

I would also stake the farm on it that if you compared a whitetail skeleton (or it's closest forefather)from 1 Million years ago, and compared that to a skeleton from today, they would not be identical. I'm wondering what the key differences are, and why they've become manifest.