From what i have read deer have gone nocturnal due to hunting pressure.

In the study of human behavior researchers often ask if a behavior is learned or instinctual which is due to genetic predisposition. Usually it is both, but they want to know which is dominant. Why wouldn't it be the same with deer.

Is Bunk you tard!

I am enjoying this thread please don't turn it into an arguement on evolution vs. creation science.

I would not count a buck going nocturnal as evolution. In the true definition of evolution, I don't think that going nocturnal could count because it is a behavior exhibited by a few individuals of a the species, not necesarily something that is being passed on. It would be like breaking a leg, having a child, and that childs leg is broken because the parent's leg was broken during pregnancy. Acquired traits (learned behavior) is not something that is passed on, it is not encoded in the genes.

I think everything on this post is considered Adaptation.
Are Humans evolving because we are using better tactics to kill deer. NO the point is deer have not been studied enough, people haven't been having the relationships with deer we are having now. Oh yeah I think thats the point I'm trying to make. We have not been studying deer long enough.......If your arguement is "we've been hunting deer for thousands of years"...all I can say isI wasn't there with the indians were you??? Maybe the deer today are 1/2 as smart as they were then?!?
We really can't say anything except we're doingour part to make sure whatever adaptations are taking place, that they are taking place with good reason.

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I think you're right on point, Beaverdam - a learned behavior can only be "learned" where the animal is genetically predisposed to that type of learning. For example, you're not gonna teach a whitetail to split the atom, or dance an Irish jig, but they apparently do have the capacity/willingness to change their travel patterns to avoid danger. Is this a new thing, or have they always had that ability, but it just took this long to develop the kind of hunting pressure necessary to facilitate the behavioral change? I guess that's the crux of this discussion.

I'd say that if you could somehow prove that whitetail brain sizes have increased by 5% over the past couple thousand years -it would substantiate the increase in cognitive ability.
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Ilbow - I'm not saying that we should have first-hand evidence of whitetail evolving - I'm just asking if anyone is aware of any trends. I'm just interested in knowing more about what deer were, and what they're becoming.

You could see a trend or patternin fossilized remains from a million years ago. It's not rocket science to observe the skeletal remains from yesteryear and compare them to their present-day decendants. Just a side-by-side comparison would yield info regarding size, height, length, brain size, teeth, bone formations, etc...

I'm sure somebody, somewhere has looked at this stuff. It's what researchers do.

You have a point and could well be right.

My idea on this runs along this line. Biologists have proven that women and men, mostly women, are hard wired to react in a nurturing way towards a baby that is crying. This is an inherited trait. So in terms of deer biology are deer becoming more nocturnal due to learned bahavior or because of a genetic predispostion that is being passed on to following generations because of hunting pressure.
I think of this because scientists have written recently on accelerated evolution. It just got me thinking. I don't see anything else in terms of deer biology that that comes close to hunting in terms of potentially accelerating evolution. In my state 25/33 % of the herd is removed every year due to hunting.

I love how people say things are scientific fact .... how do you know? If you just listen to how many times "science" has changed it's THEORIES, you would realize it's just that ... a theory. Like carbon dating ... they dug up a piece of fossilized rock ... carbon dated it billions of years ago ... when it broke, there was pottery in it from hundreds of years ago. ..... how did that happen??

[:'(]Evolution is a joke ..... deer adapt ... period.

I wont be the one to start the argument, as I believe in both creation and evolution.

As far as deer behavior, they would all die quickly without good instincts and senses. I believe that an individual deers ability to actual learn, is probably what separates the so-so bucks from the ones that get big, old and live along time on public and "non-fenced-in" private land. Anyone can grow a big buck with high fences.

Here's a cool article about how hunting can accelerate the evolutionary processes. No matter which side of the fence you're on, it's a neat read. Really makes you think. I guess somebody has been following this stuff.

http://www.hindu.com/seta/2004/01/01/stories/2004010100131500.htm

I know, it's a hindu site, which doesn't exactly scream "credibility" with regard to North American wild game, but it seems fairly straight forward.

Tony, I respect your opinions re: creation sciences, but really, I don't want to turn this thread into a debate over creation/evolution. That's a horse that's been beaten to death, and I'm hoping we can have this discussion without opening that closet.