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RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
ORIGINAL: iamyourhuckleberry Tfox, I think that depends on the individual. Some may need more than others but the fact remains. Throw that fixed head on there and give you a 7 mph cross wind and try at 30 yard shot and see what happens,Don't call me to help trackbecauseI am hunting. Or lean out around a tree with a 33" bow @ 310 fpsand torque the grip a LITTLE and see what happens.You will wish you had a little forgiveness.[8D] I you insist on that speed,then use mechanicals.Not saying fixed won't do it but the headaches aren't worth it.;) |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
Gramps, I think arrows just don't penetrate as well as you get older...;)
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RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
ORIGINAL: dwd2001 Gramps, I think arrows just don't penetrate as well as you get older...;) |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
TFOX, I don't intend to argue, I have ZERO doubt in my mind you are knowledgeable enough to know what you are talking about. This is what makes archery such an exciting sport..It is so personalized. I also agree w/ you...to a point. I know ENTIRELY too many folks who shoot just as good, and better than I who are shooting well into the 320's....
I am indeed using mechanical, Rocket Hammerheads. But I also have no doubt that my Stingers would work equally as well. We can "what if" this thing to absolute death. True. What if I have to make a twisting shot around a tree in a 30 mph crosswind? Good question, and my answer....Don't shoot. That's not a shot I'm gonna make on a good day, let alone a windy day. Like I said, we can "what if" this thing till we fall over dead from exhaustion....you're right in what you are saying, no question...But that doens't necessarily make me wrong, either....And don't read anything into what I just wrote....I know you don't intend for me to understand that I am wrong...But I'm learning a lot out of this thread, which was it's intent. |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
I can say for white tail I wouldn't be concerned very much, I use a weight of 520 grains on elk( almost all shots are within 15-17 yards). I have seen upwards of around 30 bulls killed with the bow, and have seen some bad results with lighter setups. Situations where the arrow ricocheted off the ribs and ended up angling back on a broadside shot. These bulls did die, but the blood trails were long.
80 lbs of KE with a 520 grain arrow is not the same as 80 lbs of KE with a lighter arrow. I don't know if bowsite.com still has the study that was done when coming up with a cape buffalo setup. But all tests showed that the hunter opted for an 820 grain arrow hitting with the same ke as an arrow hitting with half the weight and the same KE. Momentum is usually overlooked and is a great factor to good penetration. The lighter arrow even with the same KE, will give up the energy much quicker after the initial punch. If your stuff is tried and true, then by all means use it. It will always be heavier for me. |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
Fair enough Tfox. And yes, I believe some people need more foregiveness than others. I should have said the amount of forgiveness depends on the individual.
Mechanicals are all I use. Hunting elk above timberline with constant swirling winds educates you quickly on the use of fixed blades. Again, there are just too many variables in this sport to say this works best or that works better. Practice and first hand experience becomes priceless. |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
mobowhuntr
I only said a 7 mph crosswind and I am not even the slightest bit scared of that shot.If it is 30mph,I am probably in bed next to the wife having NO yelled at me.:D[:@] Is it experience,equipment,or setup. It is a combination of all 3.;) |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
Sorry, my mistake.....don't know why I typed 30 mph wind......I get dyslexic when I get tired I guess....LOL....Having NO yelled ....that's funny...regretably, I understand.....[&:][&o]
Oh, and I got your pm regarding my arrow choice....What arrow, then, will be spined stiff enough at 68-70 pounds, and weigh in the 375 +/- a few category? |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
ORIGINAL: mobowhuntr No, sir. Take my set up for instance. I pull only 67 pounds, but I am producing 73 pounds of KE....that's something like.....113% I think.... What you do is make a draw force curve, record the draw wt. for every inch of draw, from brace (0 lbs) to full draw (center of the valley). Then you total the area under the curve ( potential energy or PE). This will be in inch lbs., so divide it by 12 for ft.lbs. Then you divide KE/PE and you'll have efficiency (%). Generally, you will have less KE than PE because nothing is 100% efficient due to losses to hesterisis (friction in the wheel bushings, resistance of arrow being pushed etc.). Personally, I like to shoot fixed broadheads with fixed pins @ 275 fps. Broadheads fly very good at this speed and there is a suitable gap between the sight pins (not too crowded). To get the KE I'm looking for, I change the arrow weight and the draw weight. For me @ 64 lbs draw wt. with a 425 gr arrow I get 71 ft.lbs of KE. At 80 lbs draw wt. with a 525 gr arrow I get 88ft.lbs of KE. Heavier arrows have more momentum, are harder to stop (more penetration). Bowling ball @ 2mph into a window or a ping pong ball @ 200mph into a window. Also, a stiffer arrow will penetrate better than a softer one because it will not scrub off as much energy while passing through an object. All arrows flex while traveling, when they contact the target, the stiff ones don't flex as much as the softer ones, therefore they penetrate better. This is hard to explain, but if you watch the slow motion videos of arrow flight, you'll see what I mean. I hope this helps. |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
ORIGINAL: Germ I shoot a 475 grain arrow. I may switch to the 140 grain Montec next year. 490 grain arrow IMO shoot the heaviest arrow you can, with todays bows speed is not a factor. I am still shooting around 250 FPS I am 11 for 11 with this setup, 9 were pass thrus. Two buried in the opposit shoulder. I like a heavy arrow, as others have said, it's quieter to shoot, less strain on the bow and does the job but good! |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
And I honestly think they hear the arrow more than the bow. |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
I go with the need for speed!!
I saw my buddy shot at a doe and the doe turned its head before the arrow got there, he's only pulling back 50 or so pounds w/ alluminum arrows. The point is they both do the trick. Confidence is the key. Whatever gets the job done. And heavy and light arrows both do the job. It's personal preference. |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
ORIGINAL: whitetailsoldier I go with the need for speed!! |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
I haven't had a complete passthru in 5 bucks. Exit holes yes, arrow out of the deer, no |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
There are a lot of good points in this thread. My thoughts are that with my set up (see signature) I get somewhere in the mid to high60's ft-lbs of KE. That has resulted in complete pass throughs of adult elk, caribou, white tail, and mule deer. The only non-pass through was a far shoulder stick on a whitetail buck last year and a near shoulder hit a few years ago[:@]. My largest bull caribou was quartering away, the arrow entered just in front of the rear rib and exited just behind the far shoulder (about 2 feet or moreof caribou) and still had enough on it to stick in a tree behind him. I had a complete pass through on a mule deer buck at 42 yards and the arrow was sticking a couple inches in the ground.Thus, I conclude that the mid 60'sis plenty of KE for hunting any North American big game. Like David, I have a short draw length and must therefore try to squeeze every bit of weight off my arrow that I can in order to get the speed that I want to be able to have one pin out to 30 yards.
This does bring up how ludicrous it is to have draw weight minimums instead of KE minimums. I don't think anyone would argue that a 60 pound recurve shoots less KE on average than a 45 pound compound. So, CO and other states allow people to hunt with the recurves but you also have to have a 60 pound compound... stupid, stupid, stupid. Rob, I think your non-pass throughs have to be broadhead related seeing as how you have 30% more KE than me and I am getting them on larger animals.Either that or you hit the far shoulder every time and are the man. I'm no expert, this is just what I think. |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
I've pretty much come to the conclusion that KE is nothing more than a tool that bow manufacturers use to sell new bows. Kinetic energy, in a simplified formula is mass x velocity squared. So this formula leans more towards the speed of an arrow. When it comes to killing a deer, what I believe is far more important is momentum, which is mass x velocity. Why? because when you kill a deer you want the arrow to smash and break any bones, ie ribs, in the way of gettting to the heart lung area. That's why heavier arrows have more momentum, and penetrate further. The faster an object goes, the harder it has to hit in order to have the same penetration. That is why a rifle bullet will stop in a bucket of sand, but an arrow will go through.
The trade off of course is that a faster lighter arrow is more flat shooting, but it can also be louder. A heavier arrow will usually be quieter, but you have to aim higher to shoot farther, so to speak. In the end, what matters most is shot placement. However, a heavier arrow will kill a deer better than a lighter arrow in my opinion. Just my $.02. Would love to talk with a physicsguy about this, |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
Well, I know everyone's been expecting me to post up on this'n and I hate to disappoint, so...[8D]
Everyone seems to finally concede that heavier arrows penetrate better in all situations, so the debate is how far in the mud do you want to bury the arrow after it passes through, right? I agree that light arrows will generally do the job on thin skinned, medium size game like deer. Generally. But stuff happens. A little extra weight in the arrow could mean the difference between a short blood trail and a long one. I'd rather bury the arrow a little deeper in the mud on a solid passthru than be in a situation where I need the extra penetration and not have it. Next, I hate it when I hear someone say they want to shoot light and fast so the arrow will go exactly where they want it. Since a heavy arrow will shoot exactly where it's aimed as well, I can only assume what they mean is they expect the speed and trajectory to bail their arses out when they screw up their yardage estimation. Stinkin' thinkin'! If you can't judge yardage, buy a flippin' rangefinder AND USE IT! With whitetail deer being taken at somewhere around 18 yards, on the national average, speed and flat trajectory is a bunch of baloney. There is no trajectory advantage that close. Time of flight between a 300 fps arrow and a 250 fps arrow at 18 yards is something like two one-hundredths of a second. Less than a blink of the eyes. The deer isn't going to move more than an inch further trying to dodge the slow arrow vs the fast one. And if the heavier arrow is quieter, Mr Antlers might not hear it in time to dodge at all. If you want speed to flatten out the trajectory for taking pot shots at 40-50 yards and beyond, again, that's stinkin' thinkin'. First, you are admitting to the world that you're so crappy a hunter you can't get within solid bow range of the animal and you'd be better off with a nice little carbine instead of a bow. Besides that, that light, fast arrow will bleed off MUCH more of it's energy than the heavier one will over that much distance. Just to make some rough comparisons, I ran a few arrows through the ballistics program at www.bowjackson.com I adjusted them all to 70 ft lbs of energy at the bow but, in reality, the heavier arrows will actually have more than that: 350 gn arrow 0 yards 350 fps 70 ft lbs 50 yards 275 fps 59 ft lbs 400 gn arrow 0 yards 280 fps 70 ft lbs 50 yards 260 fps 60 ft lbs 500 gn arrow 0 yards 252 fps 70 ft lbs 50 yards 238 fps 63 ft lbs 800 gn arrow (just to be silly [8D]) 0 yards 199 fps 70 ft lbs 50 yards 193 fps 66 ft lbs The 350 gn arrow loses 75 fps and 11 ft lbs of energy over 50 yards. The 800 gn arrow loses only 6 fps and 4 ft lbs over the same 50 yards. Now, why do the heavier arrows retain more speed and energy downrange than the light ones? Because light arrows can't even penetrate AIR better than heavy ones. Why? Because air resistance increases the faster the projectile goes. Ever stuck your hand out the car window at 70 mph and noticed how much harder it is to hold it against the wind than it is when you're driving 30 mph? Faster speed, greater resistance. Duh! It takes more of the light arrow's energy to overcome resistance. It's also going to need significantly more energy to penetrate as well as the heavier, slower arrow when it gets to the animal. (Flesh gives a lot more resistance than air, ya know.) I'm not about to tell anyone what arrows to use, as long as they have some clue about how arrows and penetration works. Some people like skating on the thin edge, some like the odds stacked more in their favor. Always been that way, always will be. I'm pretty darn conservative and like to maximize my penetration potential because I've run into far too many situations in the woods where Murphy did his level best to kick my butt. Heavier arrows are not any kind of disadvantage to me. I can judge yardage, and I'm good enough of a hunter to get close enough so that trajectory is a non-issue anyway (30 yards and less). And the challenge of getting close is why I choose to hunt with a bow instead of a rifle. To top it off, I've almost exclusively chosen to use a recurve or longbow over the years instead of a compound. And I shoot barebow (not 'instinctive.' There's a difference), so I'm visualizing the trajectory in my mind while I'm aiming. I use trajectory as an aiming device and, besides that, there are few things in hunting I think are as beautiful as the flight of an arrow. I pity those poor sods who shoot arrows so light and so fast they can't see their arrows, because I think they are truly missing out on something special. Anyway, to get back to the point... Bottom line is, if you're going to shoot light arrows, you darn sure BETTER be putting out a butt load of energy, 'cuz you're gonna need it. If you're using a bow that's not putting out that much energy, then you're doing yourself and the animals you hunt a huge favor by going up in arrow weight. |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
ORIGINAL: Arthur P Well, I know everyone's been expecting me to post up on this'n and I hate to disappoint, so...[8D] Everyone seems to finally concede that heavier arrows penetrate better in all situations, so the debate is how far in the mud do you want to bury the arrow after it passes through, right? I agree that light arrows will generally do the job on thin skinned, medium size game like deer. Generally. But stuff happens. A little extra weight in the arrow could mean the difference between a short blood trail and a long one. I'd rather bury the arrow a little deeper in the mud on a solid passthru than be in a situation where I need the extra penetration and not have it. Next, I hate it when I hear someone say they want to shoot light and fast so the arrow will go exactly where they want it. Since a heavy arrow will shoot exactly where it's aimed as well, I can only assume what they mean is they expect the speed and trajectory to bail their arses out when they screw up their yardage estimation. Stinkin' thinkin'! If you can't judge yardage, buy a flippin' rangefinder AND USE IT! With whitetail deer being taken at somewhere around 18 yards, on the national average, speed and flat trajectory is a bunch of baloney. There is no trajectory advantage that close. Time of flight between a 300 fps arrow and a 250 fps arrow at 18 yards is something like two one-hundredths of a second. Less than a blink of the eyes. The deer isn't going to move more than an inch further trying to dodge the slow arrow vs the fast one. And if the heavier arrow is quieter, Mr Antlers might not hear it in time to dodge at all. If you want speed to flatten out the trajectory for taking pot shots at 40-50 yards and beyond, again, that's stinkin' thinkin'. First, you are admitting to the world that you're so crappy a hunter you can't get within solid bow range of the animal and you'd be better off with a nice little carbine instead of a bow. Besides that, that light, fast arrow will bleed off MUCH more of it's energy than the heavier one will over that much distance. Just to make some rough comparisons, I ran a few arrows through the ballistics program at www.bowjackson.com I adjusted them all to 70 ft lbs of energy at the bow but, in reality, the heavier arrows will actually have more than that: 350 gn arrow 0 yards 350 fps 70 ft lbs 50 yards 275 fps 59 ft lbs 400 gn arrow 0 yards 280 fps 70 ft lbs 50 yards 260 fps 60 ft lbs 500 gn arrow 0 yards 252 fps 70 ft lbs 50 yards 238 fps 63 ft lbs 800 gn arrow (just to be silly [8D]) 0 yards 199 fps 70 ft lbs 50 yards 193 fps 66 ft lbs The 350 gn arrow loses 75 fps and 11 ft lbs of energy over 50 yards. The 800 gn arrow loses only 6 fps and 4 ft lbs over the same 50 yards. Now, why do the heavier arrows retain more speed and energy downrange than the light ones? Because light arrows can't even penetrate AIR better than heavy ones. Why? Because air resistance increases the faster the projectile goes. Ever stuck your hand out the car window at 70 mph and noticed how much harder it is to hold it against the wind than it is when you're driving 30 mph? Faster speed, greater resistance. Duh! It takes more of the light arrow's energy to overcome resistance. It's also going to need significantly more energy to penetrate as well as the heavier, slower arrow when it gets to the animal. (Flesh gives a lot more resistance than air, ya know.) I'm not about to tell anyone what arrows to use, as long as they have some clue about how arrows and penetration works. Some people like skating on the thin edge, some like the odds stacked more in their favor. Always been that way, always will be. I'm pretty darn conservative and like to maximize my penetration potential because I've run into far too many situations in the woods where Murphy did his level best to kick my butt. Heavier arrows are not any kind of disadvantage to me. I can judge yardage, and I'm good enough of a hunter to get close enough so that trajectory is a non-issue anyway (30 yards and less). And the challenge of getting close is why I choose to hunt with a bow instead of a rifle. To top it off, I've almost exclusively chosen to use a recurve or longbow over the years instead of a compound. And I shoot barebow (not 'instinctive.' There's a difference), so I'm visualizing the trajectory in my mind while I'm aiming. I use trajectory as an aiming device and, besides that, there are few things in hunting I think are as beautiful as the flight of an arrow. I pity those poor sods who shoot arrows so light and so fast they can't see their arrows, because I think they are truly missing out on something special. Anyway, to get back to the point... Bottom line is, if you're going to shoot light arrows, you darn sure BETTER be putting out a butt load of energy, 'cuz you're gonna need it. If you're using a bow that's not putting out that much energy, then you're doing yourself and the animals you hunt a huge favor by going up in arrow weight. |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
opps
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RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
"If you want speed to flatten out the trajectory for taking pot shots at 40-50 yards and beyond, again, that's stinkin' thinkin'. First, you are admitting to the world that you're so crappy a hunter you can't get within solid bow range of the animal and you'd be better off with a nice little carbine instead of a bow." -Arthur P
That's hilarious. You really have no clue do you? I get so tired of this crap on here. There are so many self proclaimed experts who are the world's best hunters. It is nice to touch base with absolutely great hunters like you so I can learn so much. 40 yards? You really cosider that a pot shot. Perhaps you are a terrible shot but that is a slam dunk shot as far as I am concerned. Oh well, let's not start the long range shot thing again... You really could be a great hunter, but you make yourself sound like an arrogant ass making statements like that. I bet you are thinking deer too and probably from a stand. There are a lot of times when stalking game that not needing to know if they are 20 or 30 is a huge advantage because you don't have time to bring up your range finder. Of course, I am sure you know that. What could you possibly learn from someone else? The numbers are higher down range for a heavier arrow there is no arguing that. However, if my lighter arrow passes through a quartering away mule deer at 43 yards and sticks in the ground at 59 ft-lbs then who cares? The numbers may be higher, but you also have to look at the physical results from those numbers, which no one does. They think higher KE must be better, but in reality anything higher is basically useless because it is already going to go all the way through anything except perhaps something like a moose or grizzly. |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
350 gn arrow 0 yards 350 fps 70 ft lbs 50 yards 275 fps 59 ft lbs 400 gn arrow 0 yards 280 fps 70 ft lbs 50 yards 260 fps 60 ft lbs 500 gn arrow 0 yards 252 fps 70 ft lbs 50 yards 238 fps 63 ft lbs 800 gn arrow (just to be silly [8D]) 0 yards 199 fps 70 ft lbs 50 yards 193 fps 66 ft lbs These speeds are incorrect, as well as the stated KE you posted...... You can't just make up a KE value for an arrow weight and then compare it to another arrows at it's actual KE value. This is irreverent as a 350 grain arrow at 350FPS has much more KE than 70#. This is apples to oranges and pointless. You dropped the 350 grain arrow more than 20 ft lbs so it would look good in your graph, to attempt to prove your heavy arrow theroy. Of course everyone knows a heavier arrow carries slightly more KE as well as more momentum. This thread is pointing out that enough is enough. Out of today's high performance bows you don't need a tree trunk to kill a whitetail and have your arrow buried in the dirt on the other side. It is also a bad comparison because you didn't pick a "bow" and use the different weight arrows out of it for a true comparison of spedd and KE. How your graph should read for speed and KE values..... 350 gn arrow 0 yards 350 fps 95.11 ft lbs 50 yards343.19 fps 91.44 ft lbs 400 gn arrow 0 yards 280 fps69.56 ft lbs 50 yards 273.70 fps66.47 ft lbs 500 gn arrow 0 yards 252 fps70.43 ft lbs 50 yards 24.45 fps67.92 ft lbs 800 gn arrow (just to be silly [8D]) 0 yards 199 fps70.28 ft lbs 50 yards 196.75 fps 68.70 ft lbs I will make another graph as if all the different weight arrows were shot out one bow, to show no bias. [/align] |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
Forget the Kinetic Energy, it's momentum that counts. There's no way I'll shoot an elk with less than a 400 grain arrow. You won't get adequate penetration from a 300 grain arrow doing 300fps imo.
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RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
ORIGINAL: marcusjb There's no way I'll shoot an elk with less than a 400 grain arrow. I have shot elk with a 380ish grain arrow leaving the bow at 274fpsand it blows right through them. Why do you think I need more weight? Seriously, I am trying to get an answer not ask rhetorical questions. |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
Those are just my own personal minimums. I'm not saying you can't kill an elk with a lighter arrow; lots of people do. But I think penetration is much more important than speed on big animals like elk and I don't want to sacrifice it to a longer shooting range. I haven't shot many elk, but I've never had an arrow go completely through. I shoot 425 grain arrows at around 265 fps. I don't believe KEtells the true story of penetration.
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RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
ORIGINAL: mobowhuntr OK...so we know a heavier arrow carries with it more KE and momentum than a lighter arrow. We also know a lighter arrow carries w/ it more speed. I know in days past when mostly traditional equipment was being used, and even in the early days of the compound that heavier arrows were the way to go. The weight was needed for penetration. Times have changed, however. Todays compounds are producing better than 100% KE and are as efficient as ever. I personally no longer see the need to worry about heavy arrows and KE....I believe in MOST cases a lighter arrow shooting 300+ fps will carry enough KE to do the job. I vote for a lighter, faster arrow. What are your thoughts? Insurance is good to have. |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
huntingson, you're a riot. Disrespectful, but in a funny kind of way.[8D]
I've been bowhunting for 50 years. You have something to teach me? Something I haven't already tried - and rejected - myself? I've made shots on game far longer than your 40 yard 'slam dunks.' Of course, those shots came back when I was young and stupid, and felt like I had to kill something to take home or I was a failure. I learned from those mistakes though and matured. By the way, anybody noticed how high the wound/loss ratios have climbed since this light arrow/high speed business and long distance 'slam dunk' shots have taken over bowhunting? Anybody noticed how the anti's have latched onto our wound/loss ratios and are using that as their primary argument to get bowhunting banned? Can anybody possibly come up with one simple something we can do immediately to change the situation? Not going to punch you in the head with it. Most of you've got enough snap in your rubber bands to figure out what I mean. |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
Rob,
Dude if your not getting pass throughs with 80# of KE an a whitetail something is terribly wrong; and I don't believe it's your broadheads. Because of the design of the Snypers, they use probably the least amount of KE to operate, not to mention the blades are scary sharp out of the package. You should be blowing through those deer like the proverbial hot knife through butter. I've blown though deer with the Vortex mini max 3 blade 2"cut with a lot less KE than that (before I got my Bowtechs that is [8D]). If you feel that it might be your heads then take a look at Slick Tricks. With blood trails like the ones below, who needs mechanicals. BTW, these are kills by a young lady shooting 45# draw weight with 85 grain Slick Tricks. Seems to have done a hell of a job to me.  |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
Pic #2
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RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
Arthur, thank you for the compliment about being funny. I try to make things amuzing... Disrepectful? You were the one calling me, and countless others,terrible hunters and stupid. I think that called for a little jab. Yes, I think I could teach you quite a bit, just as you could me. Unless the saying you can't teach an old dog new tricks is actually true. No, you didn't mature you just got older, or you wouldn't be on here saying that if people don't hunt exactly like you they are terrible hunters and stupid. I am glad that you learned that you can't hit a barn door at 40 yards and quit trying. I can. I don't see the problem. I would argue that the hit/wounded ration has not increased at all. The numbers may have, but not the ratio. Also, you didn't have things like these forums years ago for people to know of all the animals people shoot and don't recover.
Do you really think that because you have been bowhunting for 50 years you have nothing left to learn? There is no way you are that closed minded. I have been bowhunting for 19 years... how many more years before I know everything so I can quit trying to learn? |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
ORIGINAL: Mike from Texas Rob, Dude if your not getting pass throughs with 80# of KE an a whitetail something is terribly wrong; and I don't believe it's your broadheads. Because of the design of the Snypers, they use probably the least amount of KE to operate, not to mention the blades are scary sharp out of the package. You should be blowing through those deer like the proverbial hot knife through butter. 380 grain arrow, 301 fps = 76 ft lbs. oops, I keep thinking of my Bowtech, the 4 bucks prior to that one was with my Hoyt 380 grain arrow, 285 fps, 68 ft lbs. Still should have passed through..? |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
I just have to ask, who's chronographer are you using? Are you sure of how accurate it is? I'm sure I don't have to ask or suggest this, but short of any of the above..... are these things flying true? Are they fish tailing or anything? I know, stupid question.... but something is stealing energy. Is it a measured or calculated speed???? Just fishing. OR, does this just restore my faith in fixed heads and convinces me I never need to try mechanicals.[8D]
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RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
huntingson, just for the record, I never said everyone who doesn't exactly hunt like me is stupid or terrible at it. Yeah, you might be able to teach me a thing or two. I might even adopt it into my hunting style if I found it worthwhile. But there's precious little I haven't tried over the years so, like I said, it's not likely you know much of anything I don't. Might be a few things I've learned and forgotten though. [&:]
You want to argue wound/loss statistics? Then you need to take it up with the state wildlife agencies, not me. They don't get their data off these forums, ya know.:eek: I'll do you a favor and overlook the ignorant and malicious insult about my shooting abilities. |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
ORIGINAL: BUCKEYEBUCKHNTR: This thread is pointing out that enough is enough. Out of today's high performance bows you don't need a tree trunk to kill a whitetail and have your arrow buried in the dirt on the other side. ORIGINAL: Arthur P: And if the heavier arrow is quieter, Mr Antlers might not hear it in time to dodge at all. GregH, that was one of the most interesting posts I've ever read....I just wish I knew what the heck you are talking about....[&:] That was way over my head....LOL... We all know that inches matter in this game. Slower, heavierarrows drop faster thanlighter arrows....We can't argue that either. I don't know about ya'll, but I don't always have time to range a deer before I shoot it. It's very possible, in fact, LIKELY, that I'll misjudge by a couple of yards. Now, 6 or 9 feet doesn't sound like much, but a heavy arrow flying 250 will drop a couple inches as compared to a lighter arrow flying 310.......Those couple inches could make all the difference in the world. Again, we could "What if" this thing till we are all blue in the face. There are SO many variables in this sport that it is IMPOSSIBLE to be prepared, or have the absolute BEST set up, for each and every possibility. I still say, though, that lighter, faster is the way to go. I'm producing plenty of KE and momentum either way. My bow is quiet enough that I have nothing to gain there either. |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
ORIGINAL: davidmil I just have to ask, who's chronographer are you using? Are you sure of how accurate it is? I'm sure I don't have to ask or suggest this, but short of any of the above..... are these things flying true? Are they fish tailing or anything? I know, stupid question.... but something is stealing energy. Is it a measured or calculated speed???? Just fishing. OR, does this just restore my faith in fixed heads and convinces me I never need to try mechanicals.[8D] Two chronos, One I own, new and the shop, both read the same and true. Arrows are darts, I have Muzzy's, Snypers and field points flying together. Arrows impact targers straight. Measured speeds.... I just don't get it. Could be my deer are macho...[8D] |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
Rob, Snypers have "fingers" sticking out that opens the blades up, yes? Is it possible, that even when the blades are deployed, those "fingers" are dragging on the deer?? That would certainly act like a brake, no doubt.
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RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
I don't think so mo, these darn Snypers will open on paper, I don't think there's drag at all and to be honest, the way they work, I'd bet they take less KE than jackknife style heads. They are impressive to say the least.
I'm just wondering if it's purely coincidental. There are so many variables that hinder penetration. Take my setup I killed my bull elk with. I was shooting roughtly a 400+ grn Beman Trophy Hunter 70-90 pultruded carbon arrow with Muzzys at nearly 80ftlbs. I blew through the bull like butter at 33 yards, the arrow layed 20 yards past the bull. I came home from that trip, I used the same arrow/broadhead, changed blades and didn't pass through a buck nor a doe I shot...same exact setup....I think my deer are just tough sum beaches. ;) |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
Understood....maybe you didn't understand what I wrote, or perhaps I didn't understand you.....I'm not questioning whether the open or not...No doubt in my mind they do.....I'm thinking those fingers are remaining exposed and acting as brakes???? Hell, I don't know.....you may be right, coincidence....
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RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
Nope, I understood, you didn't;) , that's why I gave the paper as an example, they wouldn't open on paper if they were stopping the arrow...comprendo mi amigo? Hell I don't know either, that's why I brought up for discussion. Has to be coincidence.
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RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
ORIGINAL: Rob/PA Bowyer Nope, I understood, you didn't;) , that's why I gave the paper as an example, they wouldn't open on paper if they were stopping the arrow...comprendo mi amigo? Hell I don't know either, that's why I brought up for discussion. Has to be coincidence. |
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
Nope, BigJ, once open they are as smooth as any 2 blade broadhead on the market which brings up another point, 2 blades penetrating better than 3 blades etc....
I'll just have to take one with Muzzy's next fall just to see. I had both in my quiver this year but of course too, I'm shooting a faster more KE setup and the only deer I shot with it this year I spined......not a good example. [&:] |
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