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RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
Yeah, his buddies and him were what, 1 for 19? Those kind of hunters shouldn't be in the woods, period.
Very poor shots, regardless of the weapon. I still submit trad bows are easier, because they add a precious few minute of daylight to the shooter, and that buck you can make out at first light, but can't see your sights through the peep, is a dead buck with a recurve or longbow. That is if you can shoot them accurately. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> "In heaven, even the fish have antlers" |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
" You posted on here about all the misses you and your frinds have experienced,right? Me and my buddies all shoot compounds and we haven't missed 1/10 as much as what you posted."
Charlie P - So are you agreeing that Trad shooters miss more/wound more ? Just wanting clarification. 6ptsika - Same question to you. Stealthycat's Photo's |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
<font color=red>"Trad basher ? Explain that one or edit it please, as it again follows what you consider to be the defintion of a LIE."</font id=red>
<font color=red>"Charlie P - So are you agreeing that Trad shooters miss more/wound more ? Just wanting clarification."</font id=red> <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> JRW |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
The differences are not voluminous, but the significance is the importance of the differences.
Diffences: A crossbow can be shoulder mounted or steadied with bipod, sandbag, or rifle rest (huge difference--and this fact alone makes crossbows unappealing to me). The anchor point on a crossbow will not change drastically if topped with a scope; the scope helps the shooter find the proper anchor. The crossbow is loaded prior to entering the woods. The operator doesn't even have to draw his own weapon (a huge difference--another reason why crossbows are unappealing to me). I don't see any similarities between a crossbow and a compound/traditional bow. I have limbs and I can launch an arrow...does that make me archery equipment? Maybe we should have a litework season. Differences between a magnum rifle and a .30-.30: Scope on a magnum, 3 times the range, bolt action promotes greater accuracy, more energy transferred to the game...we could make a strong point for having a seperate season for these more "traditional" cartridge firing weapons. Three seperate seasons is all we need. I wouldn't be against one season, if safety wasn't a huge issue. |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
sc, I never said trad shooters miss and wound a higher percentage of game animals, just you and your friends.
Why would you ask me a question about a statement I never made? Do you agree trad bows are easier to kill game with because they allow quicker shots and longer hunting days due to being able to shoot in low light conditions? Just wanted clariffication. <center></center> "In heaven, even the fish have antlers" |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Charlie P - So are you agreeing that Trad shooters miss more/wound more? Just wanting clarification. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I only know one guy that hunts with traditional equipment and he doesn't miss much. You stated <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I hunt with a guy who switched to a BW recurve 7 years ago and is 0 for 5, buddy of mine in TX is like 1 for 12 with a couple of hits not recovered quick enough. I read the LW and this site a lot, I KNOW what I am reading and the difficulty of shooting a longbow/recurve. My buddy in KS, he's 0 for 3 on shooting at whitetails with his longbow. I read time and again the "self imposed" 20 yards limits people who shoot with a longbow/recurve have. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> That's alot of missing and wounding as far as I'm concerned.Your not trying to show why Trad equipment should be banned are you?<img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle> I'm not saying that all trad hunters wound or miss more then compound hunters just the group that of Trad. hunters that you hang around with compared with the guys I hang around with. I'll be honest if I was 1 for 12 with a couple of lost animals I would hang that weapon up and not use it in the woods.I think I could do better then 1 for 12 dropping big rocks out of my tree stands.lol. |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
Here is one of your gems <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> tell ya, if nothing else you WILL be a better hunter for it. Why ? The stand locations have to be more precise, better angles, more concealed I think. You WILL learn to focus or you'll blow every shot that comes your way. The focus is the part that amazed me. I never HAD to focus with a compound - put the pin where you want the arrow to go and release.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> The stand locations have to be more precise, better angles, more concealed I think. You have obviosly never seen my set ups before.I can't remember my last bow shot over 20 yards. You WILL learn to focus or you'll blow every shot that comes your way. I am already focused. In the woods I turn into 100% predator. I never HAD to focus with a compound - put the pin where you want the arrow to go and release.This is one of your main problems SC you think the way YOU do things or your experiences are the way it is. I'm definately going to get set up with some trad. equipment and shoot it and see how tuff it really is.We shot old fiberglass recurves in highschool and I at least was hitting the target,without any real instruction. Tell you what if I can get set up with some decent gear(money is really tight right now) I'll get good enough to hunt with it and kill a deer next season.If I don't I'll donate $50 dollars to your favorite charity.:) Edited by - Charlie P on 11/25/2002 12:57:22 |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
6ptsika - I asked a question for clarification, as you did. you asked
" Do you agree trad bows are easier to kill game with because they allow quicker shots and longer hunting days due to being able to shoot in low light conditions? Just wanted clariffication." Quicker shots - I don't think thats a significant plus. As I look back on all the game I have killed drawing and holding has been a huge help where quick shooting a longbow/recurve would not have been. The low light condition shooting is a plus, however when it gets too dark to pick a spot its too dark, and I would say only a few minutes seperate that light from compounds being unable to see through their peeps. But that is a plus IMO. Charlie P / 6ptsika - Would you also say that if I cannot shoot better than 0 for 2 I should quit and try something else ? How many misses before you think a change in equipment is neccessary ? IF you, by my hit/miss/kill stats think I should change equipment and convince me to do so, should I then try a compound or maybe a crossbow, or quit archery season altogether and stick with a rifle ? "Trad basher ? Explain that one or edit it please, as it again follows what you consider to be the defintion of a LIE." "Charlie P - So are you agreeing that Trad shooters miss more/wound more ? Just wanting clarification." JRW Did you read what I posted ? Reread it. I didn't bach trad archers, I was asking and exploring rationale and questioning. Oh, and I noticed that you yet again replied to none of the questions I posted. If you finding one misquote or pointing out that I am 5 years +/- on my crossbow legality dates are the only things about my arguments to point out, I guess that says volumes, doesn't it ? Stealthycat's Photo's |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Would you also say that if I cannot shoot better than 0 for 2 I should quit and try something else ? How many misses before you think a change in equipment is neccessary ? IF you, by my hit/miss/kill stats think I should change equipment and convince me to do so, should I then try a compound or maybe a crossbow, or quit archery season altogether and stick with a rifle ? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I really don't care what you do SC.You'll know when/if you should hang up your new toy. Until then find some recipes for twigs.lol.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> If I was 1-12 with a couple woundings over several years I know I wouldn't be too confident when I was pulling back my bow. Edited by - Charlie P on 11/25/2002 14:06:57 |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
<font color=red>"I didn't bach trad archers, I was asking and exploring rationale and questioning."</font id=red>
No, you were hoping that someone else agreed with your wounding-myth about trad shooters, as is evident by the fact that you pointed out how horrible your buddies are in the woods, and that you think they are the norm. <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle> <font color=red>"Oh, and I noticed that you yet again replied to none of the questions I posted."</font id=red> Your "questions" are the same old tired, worn-out, over-played, don't-hold-no-water assumption that they always were. They've been debunked by several people, on this very thread, and numerous others on different sites where you've spewed the same misinformation. You make a claim, it gets debunked, and a day or so later you're right back where you started (ex. accessories versus bows). And then you get huffy when folks won't go down that road again with you? <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle> I loved this one...<font color=red>"Quicker shots - I don't think thats a significant plus. As I look back on all the game I have killed..."</font id=red> YOU have killed? You went to the Bowsite with that same story, and were met by person after person after person (some of whom have hunted more years that you've been alive) telling you story after story of how the quicker shots afforded them by trad gear was the determining factor on given hunts. And after that, here you come, disregarding everything else and substituting your personal experience for "the way it is". Amazing. And you wonder why I say you're chasing your tail? <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle> CharlieP said it best..."This is one of your main problems SC you think the way YOU do things or your experiences are the way it is. Until you get past that, it's all a waste of time... JRW, aka "Slick" (still yawning) |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
No, sc, hitting two branches in one season should not discourage you except for the lost opportunites. Just bad luck and/or a lack of concentration. Could happen with any weapon. Your statement about "just holding the pin on target" leads me to beleive a pro shop couldd do you wonders on helping concentration, as it is badly neeeded with both styles of bows. Maybe that's your problem?
If you just flat out missed, I would say you need to spend some time practicing before heading afield, wouldn't you? I would, regardless of what type of weapon I was using. O for 5, yes, I would hang it up for a while. 1 for 12, I believe they should take his license away, for good. That's a complete lack of respect for the animals. How many errant arrows you send towards live game before hanging it up, is for you to judge. Not many, hopefully. "In heaven, even the fish have antlers" |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
JRW - So very wrong you are. Dodging the issues, not responding to question, not debating at all but posting the same stuff over and over ... not helping your anti-crossbow case any.
"This is one of your main problems SC you think the way YOU do things or your experiences are the way it is." Lets key in on this for a moment. IF that were true, I would expect everyone to shoot a longbow, correct ? But I don't, I am fine with compound and crossbow hunters. Will everyone experience what I have ? Of course not, but some things are consistant and true, such as when you switch from rifles to compounds you become a better hunter because of stand placement etc etc like Charlie P and I were discussing. I think shooting a longbow/recurve makes you even better though, and CP - I should have worded that different and not have made that so matter of factly. My bad there. So look at the last few posts. The "feeling" was that if you can't hit what you shoot at for goodness sakes switch to another weapon. 6ptsika even went as far as to say take the license away. So who is wanting to force their views on who ? First we got use a compound, recurve or longbow or don't come into archery season, and now we have hit X ammount of the deer you shoot at or don't hunt at all ?? 6ptsika - I am using your statement as an example, nothing personal here. I agree in a large way that if you cannot hit what you are aiming at , don't hunt with that weapon. Thing is, as archery season is right now, if I were unable to hit with my longbow, I should then use a compound, right ? And in AR, if I cannot for whatever reason get good enough with a compound, then I have the option of a crossbow. This should be a good thing, less deer wounded, still have me as an archery hunter. Anti-crossbow people are saying to me then that if I cannot practice enough and spend enough time with a compound (in states that have no crossbow seasons) that tough then, no archery hunting for me. Is this not the message being sent ? And if THIS is true, then couldn't the longbow/recurve shooters say the very same thing, as it is true that they are more challenging weapons that require (overall) more practice, are less powerful, have shorter ranges, are not as accurate etc etc ? THAT guys is forcing your views and beliefs on others, exactly opposite of what I have been saying. JRW - When was Arkansas' first crossbow season again ? And post a link to this stuff I have said on the LW. Maybe I did, maybe I have changed my mind, maybe you misread it, maybe I was wrong ?? If I got time I'll go browse the archives over there today. I remember deabting frontal shots as not good shots and quartering to shots as well and, I think I was wrong. Fred Bear certainly thought they were good shots. I remember ATV threads, cut on impact broadhead threads and general elk threads. 6ptsika - I DO agree with you on that last post of yours overall. I think that is why inline muzzleloaders and compounds are legal in their respective general seasons - they make the hunters more accurate. Advances in technology does this, as mechanical broadheads have. Changes in rules by G&F commissions rarely go back with technology (exceptions like Idaho primitive zones). Crossbows are for most people easier to use and more effective for them at close range animals. Why ? Pracitce I suppose, ease of use, but if those same people would try compounds I think they would find them very close to being as easy to use, and maybe more accurate. The guy I first mentioned ... he shot that compound all weekend. He has a very bruised up forearm (I again had to tell him about rotating that elbow and openig up his stance a bit) - I suspect his crossbow won't ever get shot again. Stealthycat's Photo's |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
"This is one of your main problems SC you think the way YOU do things or your experiences are the way it is."
<font color=red>"Lets key in on this for a moment. IF that were true, I would expect everyone to shoot a longbow, correct ? But I don't, I am fine with compound and crossbow hunters."</font id=red> HUH? Psssst...you also hunt with a compound, don't you? First, you completely miss what the man said, and then you forget what you hunt with? LOL!!! Wonder why discussing things with you is like chasing your tail? The man clearly stated that..."think the way YOU do things or your experiences are the way it is." And you somehow read it to mean that he accused you of saying that everyone should use the same equipment you use? Dang son, that's not even apples & oranges...that's apples and fenceposts. <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle> <font color=red>"The "feeling" was that if you can't hit what you shoot at for goodness sakes switch to another weapon. 6ptsika even went as far as to say take the license away. So who is wanting to force their views on who ?"</font id=red> Maybe you think that going, what...1 for 12 with a couple wounds(?) from a supposedly experienced bowhunter, is acceptable because he's using trad gear. But I highly doubt few outside your circle of friends feel that way. <font color=red>"First we got use a compound, recurve or longbow or don't come into archery season, and now we have hit X ammount of the deer you shoot at or don't hunt at all ??"</font id=red> No, I think it's called have enough respect for the animals you hunt, and the image of your sport, to learn what the heck you're doing...or don't hunt at all. JRW Edited by - jrw on 11/25/2002 15:34:03 |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
knock-knock! Excuse me, just curious. I do not want to read all the posts. Can someone, in just a few words, sum up what the real point of this thread was and where you are at this time regarding what has been constructively acomplished and majority opinions.? :)
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RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
c903 - In a nushell ??
I presented the argument that compounds are to longbow/recurves what crossbows are to compounds - that being faster, harder shooting, more accurate - in other words overall more effective for people to use. I also defined by Webster's standard what a bow is and isn't, what arrows are and aren't and why a crossbow IS a bow as defined. I addressed that crossbows are still a close range weapon, and that the only thing advantageous to them (no drawing required while hunting) is offset by all the other comparisons to a compound. Archery season in Arkansas is just as long with just as liberal bag limits as ever WITH legalized crossbow. In conclusion, I stated that I have no problems with crossbows, longbows, recurves or compounds in regular archery season. I see people all the time post anti-crossbow comments, but have yet seen a real good argument for it. JRW's arguement is classic - the " I've already told you why and can't say again" argument. I will say this - IF crossbows lead to a shorter archery season, IF they lead to a lesser bag limit, IF they are a negative to archery instead of a positive, then I will change my mind on them because surly we as a hunting community and as an archery community cannot afford this. In Arkansas I have not seen any indication this is so. Arnie - " Wouldn't you guys agree that there is a definate learning curve when you migrate from compound to stickbow?" I say yes, or else why wouldn't everybody shoot recurves/longbows ? They are harder, thats why. " I've never talked to a traditional hunter who never missed an animal." Nor I. " I've never talked to a trad hunter who has not wounded an animal. The same can be said for compound shooters. " I've never wounded one :) Quite a few archery folks miss/wound. That don't bother me terribly IF lessons are learned. Its called hunting. And I will also say this - if legalizing crossbows take poor compound shooters and result in fewer wounds/misses, I think thats a good thing. Stealthycat's Photo's |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
Sorta jumped the fence haven't we SC?
Here are but a few of the numberous posts by YOU on a crossbow thread on another BBS: "Crossbows are doing it, they are luring out the worst hunters and allowing them to taint archery's image..." "...you get people in archery season using the only piece of equipment that a lazy, undedicated, short-cuts to hunting kind of guy uses - and thats crossbows." "I say the harm is the degredation of archery as a whole. We simply cannot have high wounding rates and slob hunters in our ranks and survive IMO. Crossbows invites those kinds of hunters - I've seen it, I know it. The examples I gave are from this year alone. Last year I saw the same thing, year before and year before that." There GOBS more similar posts by you on that thread...here's the link: http://www.bowsite.org/STICKBOW/TF/t...s=261&forum=23 I'm not gonna debate this w/you here any longer. Besides, you will undoubtedly have changed your mind (?) yet again by next week anyhow... |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
<font color=red>"Wouldn't you guys agree that there is a definate learning curve when you migrate from compound to stickbow?"</font id=red>
In terms of shooting the weapon? Yes. In terms of bowhunting? No. Allow me to explain... Everyone has an effective range. Even the guy who's never shot a bow before has one (albeit a foot or two, maybe). Yes, "stuff" happens at times. We don't see that branch in the way, the animal jumps the string, etc. These things should be the exception, not the rule. If a bowhunter stays within their effective range, they don't go 1 for 12 with a couple of wounds. High miss/wound rates are a function of people not staying within their abilities. One or two, here or there? That's one thing. One for twelve with a couple wounds? That's unacceptable...for any weapon. <font color=red>"I've never talked to a traditional hunter who never missed an animal. I've never talked to a trad hunter who has not wounded an animal. The same can be said for compound shooters."</font id=red> Exactly what I've been saying. It's not a function of the equipment that causes it...it's the "individual" behind the string that makes Ingrid Newkirk squeal like a giddy school girl on prom night with things like "1 for 12 with a couple wounds". <font color=red>"6ptsika/JRW---How many animals have you not recovered after you loosed an arrow at them?"</font id=red> That's a fair enough question, which I'll try to answer as best as I can. Prior to 1999 I didn't keep records of things, so I honestly couldn't give an accurate account. However...since that time, best as I can recall, I've gone 15-2-2, exclusively with recurves & a longbow. My two misses were both string-jumps that got away good as gold. My two wounds were... 1) A shoulder blade hit that survived to let me watch him rub the heck out of a sapling later in the season (very unique rack, same buck). 2) A long story, but in short... I thought it was a great hit, but turned out to be a liver shot. Jumped the buck, tracked him for several hours and lost sign at the edge of a 20 acre cut field. Couldn't get permission (must have) to track through the woods accross the field and highway. No doubt the deer died, but was not recovered. My one and only kill-loss since 1985 when I first started bowhunting, and I still think we could have found him if the landowner had let us. JRW |
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RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
arrowsmit - I went over that very thread today. As I have said, my opinions have changed and I think I was wrong before. I have been wrong many times before, aint afraid to admit it. I've had a lot of discussions on crossbows with a lot of people lately. My arguments on the above thead consisted of two things I think - #1 that crossbows are easier to use which is undoubtably true and #2 that a lot of slob and careless hunters use them. I realize its been difficult for me to get this across, but I'll try again - as a crossbow is easier to use vs a compound, so a compound is as easy to use vs a longbow/recurve. Here is the first post I made on that thread ...
<font size=1>Dawg - Is a crossbow not a tradional weapon in the sense that its history goes way, way back ? A compoud was born what, 60 years ago ? A crossbow was born hundreds of years ago. For all ya'll calling it a cross-gun, it is not. A crossgun is not in Websters. A crossbow is NOT more efficient at casting an arrow either, as some of ya'll believe. I can shoot a compound, and did, much more accurately than a crossbow has ever shot for me. Feret - Well said As for my take on this issue, I live in Arkansas. Crossbows are legal. Its been my experience that crossbow hunters pick their crossbows up the day before they go hunting, shoot a few shot and then they're off. They don't know their weapons, they don't practice. Thats what crossbows do - they enable a person with little or no experience or practice to be able to hit that pie plate at 20 yards consistantly, much like a gun but a shorter range. That brings us to the one point crossbow hunters try to make their argument on - its the distance of the shot, not the weapons used that matters. I'll challenge that too, by saying that an iron sighted hangun, 4 inch barrel, is not any more accurate than a crossbow at 20-30 yards. Therefore, using the pro-crossbow argument, iron sighted handguns with 4 inch barrels should be allowed in archery season, after all, it about distance, not weaponry, right ?? Crossbows have their place. My 67 year old Dad is getting close to having to use one - his shoulders just aint what they use to be. I wouldn't take away his love of mid-October whitetail hunting for something that he cannot help. But other than handi-cap licenseing for archery season, crossbows should be put into the muzzleloader season. If that happened, people wouldn't use them. As a contrast, if archery season and muzzleload were combined, many if not all of us here would still go to the woods carrying a longbow or recurve, wouldn't we ? Boys, that says volumes IMO. </font id=size1> My opinon has changed now that its not for me to say how or why someone chooses to shoot a crossbow, a compound, a recurve or a longbow. Look at the example reylamb posted - compound shooters are just as apt to be careless and "slobby" as crossbows shooters. In that I believe now I was wrong. " I'm not gonna debate this w/you here any longer. Besides, you will undoubtedly have changed your mind (?) yet again by next week anyhow..." Yeah, I might if I am wrong and if the arguments against me prove it - I got no problem doing that. JRW - I did take a compound to KS with me and am glad I did so. I took a bow I had never held and in a couple of hours was shooting damn good with it. Challenge ? Hardly. Heck my coworker can shoot the same compound AND DOES almost as good as I do. Anyway, after waiting for 2 years for a tag and missing two animals this fall and spending the $$ on the hunt I make no apologies for wanting it to be a successful hunt that ended in a filled tag with one of those huge KS bucks. I think I hunted 3 days with the compound, then hunted the rest with my longbow. I wouldn't change a thing in how I did that hunt. I also bought a new carbon High Country Triple S bow off EBAY at a very good price and it arrived while I was in KS. When I got home I sold it. So I don't have a compound and aint currently using one. I may again in the future, who knows ? I might also hunt with a crossbow, who knows ? " No, I think it's called have enough respect for the animals you hunt, and the image of your sport, to learn what the heck you're doing...or don't hunt at all. " That I will agree with, however its something that cannot be legislated or dictated or controlled. I too would have jumped bandwagon on the guy shooting 1 for 12 a few months ago - look up past threads and you'll see some of my posts doing the same. But knowing him now, knowing he's a dang good shot, an accomplished hunter who DOES know what the heck he's doing I think differently ... he had a very bad run and missed a lot of animals for whatever reasons he did. Heck, that guy on the LW missed a grizzly, missed again, shot and hit one low the hit it again in the chest before recovering it, then hits a whitetail twice and losing it before connecting on another - thats a string of 5 shots out of the last 7 that went bad. Is he a poor hunter for that ? Doesn't know what he's doing maybe ? Certainly not, I suspect hes a great shot and a fine hunter and I respect the hell out of him for posting those hunts and taking the slack he did for what he did. But IF he were a rookie, if you didn't know him from Jack, ya'll would be questioning his skills, maybe his dedication and maybe the "respect" and "image" to not even be hunting with a recurve at all ??? If he's another 0 for 2 on his next hunt maybe even call for his license ? Just more to think about. Stealthycat's Photo's |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
I have read this topic front to back. My eyes are sore, and I wish I had spent a couple of hours doing something else. I pretty much knew where this thread was going before I even opened it when I saw the topic and saw the author. In retrospect I wish I would have never opened it. Before I respond to the meat and potatoes of this thread, I will respond to the supposed topic at hand.
IF crossbows were to be made legal in general archery season to any hunter and an ethical hunter decided to make this his weapon of choice and practiced with it and worked hard to hunt with it I would embrace him as a fellow hunter. I would rather see a guy like this who cares about hunting and the game he hunts than some guy that buys a bow 2 days before the season and heads out to the woods, or a guy who takes 12 shots at game and only has one animal to show for it but thinks it's OK because he shoots traditional gear. If someone were to get a crossbow simply to try to whack some deer and put no effort into learning his gear, but simply wanted to take advantage of what he views as an "easy" opportunity, I would not want to share the woods with him either. That being said, I disagree with crossbows being entered into an archery season because in my opinion it does not take archery skills. The form used in shooting a bow (compound, recurve, or longbow) is essentially the same. Upright posture, bow arm extended, DRAW the string, anchor, aim, and shoot. That is archery and that is why I shoot a bow more than I shoot a gun. A crossbow has all of the same mechanics as shooting a gun. Load the weapon, bring the stock to your shoulder, brace your cheek on the stock, aim, and shoot. There is your difference. One does not have to learn and apply the mechanics and skills of shooting a bow to shoot a crossbow and that is why I feel it does not belong in archery season. Now to the real point of this thread. Stealthycat, I have read your drivel on this board since you have taken up your new love of traditional archery. Since then you have time and again posted things to boost your opinion of yourself for making such a switch. C903 had asked what the point of this thread is. That is all that it is about. It's just you using another vehicle (crossbows vs. compounds vs. traditional) to sing your own praises about how you have switched to a longbow and now you are a "true" hunter. As this thread drags on you continue to backpeddle and go back to "traditional gear is harder than a compound." You say how hard it is and how you and your friends keep missing and wounding game, but when someone says you need more practice you rebut with, "oh, but there were twigs in the way." If you hit a twig then you screwed up and it has nothing to do with your gear. You say if you had a compound the trajectory would have been different and you would have missed the twig. Number one, how do you know if you didn't know it was there? Number two, the trajectory difference of any arrow inside of 20 yards (which you must have been shooting since trad is more difficult) is not that great. Number three, it is your job as an archer to know your trajectory and be able to judge the shot prior to dropping the string. Yes, things happen while hunting. However, it seems that the identical thing happened twice to you (get me once shame on you, get me twice shame on me) and these things seem to happen a lot to your band of merry men. You also continue to make comparisons between traditional gear and fully equipped compounds despite the fact that it has been brought to your attention many times that many people shoot compounds bare bow. <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Lets see, a crossbow has a release, a compound has a release, a crossbow has sights, a compound has sights, a crossbow is geld full draw, a compound can be held for several minutes, a crossbows gets 250-300 fps, a compound gets 250-300+ fps .... what were we comparing again ?? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Last time I bought a compound (and I buy them more often than my better half would like) all I got was a bow, two cams, string, cables and a cable guard. I had to buy a release, sights, etc. separately. Not to mention (even though it has been several times already) those items you bring up can be put on your beloved traditional gear. In fact, the guys that put that stuff on their carbon limbed, machined riser recurves can shoot the pants off of most compound shooters a lot of times. You keep bringing up let-off and while it is an advantage the average amount of time I spend at full draw before shooting at an animal is about 6 seconds with the longest being 20 seconds. I don't know about you, but I cannot hold my bow back for several minutes and expect to accurately shoot my bow. If you are holding for several minutes and shooting at game, you need to rethink your ethics IMO. Then again you pal around with people that feel it's normal to have a combined 1-17 kill to shoot ratio so I'm not surprised. I don't understand why feel this is OK. There are many traditional shooters that have had great success year in and year out and don't say, "look at my success and I did it with traditional gear." On the flip side there are many compound hunters that are not having the same success. Yet you still continue with your posts that have no other purpose that boasting your new found love. With all this being put on the table I will say this, I am very happy for you that you have found something that you are passionate about and wish you all the best with it. Just do the rest of us a favor and quit trying to prove (whether it be to us or yourself) how great you are for it. For those of you that feel this post is a little personal it is. This guy has been doing this for over a year now and apparently on several boards. Those of you that know where I am coming from...well, enough said. |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
HuntingBry - Great post, well though out. Sorry your eyes are sore.
<font size=1>IF crossbows were to be made legal in general archery season to any hunter and an ethical hunter decided to make this his weapon of choice and practiced with it and worked hard to hunt with it I would embrace him as a fellow hunter. I would rather see a guy like this who cares about hunting and the game he hunts than some guy that buys a bow 2 days before the season and heads out to the woods, or a guy who takes 12 shots at game and only has one animal to show for it but thinks it's OK because he shoots traditional gear. If someone were to get a crossbow simply to try to whack some deer and put no effort into learning his gear, but simply wanted to take advantage of what he views as an "easy" opportunity, I would not want to share the woods with him either.</font id=size1> Question - Do you think my coworker, after shooting the compound we set up and consistantly hitting 4" groups at 20 yards after only two days of shooting ... do you agree with him hunting over Thanksgiving with it and why ? <font size=1>That being said, I disagree with crossbows being entered into an archery season because in my opinion it does not take archery skills. The form used in shooting a bow (compound, recurve, or longbow) is essentially the same. Upright posture, bow arm extended, DRAW the string, anchor, aim, and shoot. That is archery and that is why I shoot a bow more than I shoot a gun. A crossbow has all of the same mechanics as shooting a gun. Load the weapon, bring the stock to your shoulder, brace your cheek on the stock, aim, and shoot. There is your difference. One does not have to learn and apply the mechanics and skills of shooting a bow to shoot a crossbow and that is why I feel it does not belong in archery season.</font id=size1> Archery skills ... like being able to pick up a compound and never having shot one and hitting a 4" group, that kind of skill ? I will agree that you hold a crossbow like a gun, but the mechnical release of the string and the way the arrow is propelled is that of a bow as defined. But you do have a point. <font size=1>C903 had asked what the point of this thread is. That is all that it is about. It's just you using another vehicle (crossbows vs. compounds vs. traditional) to sing your own praises about how you have switched to a longbow and now you are a "true" hunter. "</font id=size1> Okay, I'll play your game a bit. But first do me this favor ... go to this thread and read it. http://www.bowsite.com/stickbow/tf/t...ges=8&forum=23 Paraphrased it says ... [/i] I've been shooting a recurve for about 8 months now after 12 years with a compound and I want to share some things that I've learned and conclusions I've come to during the past few months.These are only my opinion and am sure some of these will change as I progress in shooting. 3.Snap shooting for me was a very inconsistent way to shoot.It took me a while but I finally trained myself to come to a solid anchor and hold for a bit before release and my shooting is much more accurate and consistent. 4.Shooting at a deer with a recurve and having to pick a spot is much more difficult than I thought.(I've missed two and wounded one).I am shooting well during practice and think that the next shot I get I will be able to remain calm,slow down,and pick a spot.After my misses I am now practicing on intense concentration on a spot. 5.Traditional archery is much more fun and rewarding than shooting a compound.I only wish that I would have begun years ago. 8.It takes alot of time and practice to be consistently accurate with a recurve.I shoot almost daily and after 8 months am just now consistent out to 18 yards.I shoot out to about 25 yards some but so far,I'm confident out to about 18,maybe 20 yards on a good day.Under 18,I'm very confident.With my compound,baseball size groups at 40 yards was the norm.Traditional archery takes a committment in time and effort to be a good shot.A compound shooter can be good in a few weeks. 9.For me,I like instinctive shooting.It seems to fit traditional archery.If I wanted to gap shoot,then I may as well go back to a compound.I'm not trying to offend the gap shooters.I can't say that I shoot purely instinctive because I am aware of the arrow but I don't aim with it and for me that is one of the joys of traditional archery.It is just you and the bow.No sights or gadgets of any kind. 11.My friends think I'm nuts for trying to kill a deer with a recurve.After my misses,they think I'm not ready to hunt with one but I'm not giving up.I just have to chalk those up to the learning process.I'll miss again,I'm sure,but I hope that in time,my misses will be few and far between. [/i] Maybe I am not in the minority afterall. To your game - am I tooting my horn ? Maybe I am, but I don't think so and here why. Theres three season in AR (1) modern gun (rifles, shotguns and pistols) (2) Muzzleloader (inline, caplock, flintlock) (3) Archery (compound, crossbow, recurve/longbow) Who uses what in each season the most ? Rifles in modern gun season, inlines in Muzzleloader season and compounds in archery (maybe a 50-50 split between compounds and crossbows, I have no stats on it). What then does that say ? They are the easiest weapons to use, most accurate and thats what people to use to kill animals with. I got not problems with that either. But to anyone who says contrary to that, that maybe inlines are just as hard to use as a flintlock, or that a rifle is harder to use than a shotgun or that a recurve is easier and better to use for archery hunting (as a general overall statement) its simply not true. You want to know the people who really challenge themselves in archery ? Self bowyers who make the stuff themselves and primitive archers. So back to the game. I do have a feeling of pride that I have spent the hours to learn my longbow and to shoot it like I can. I still got a long way to go though, and just like the thread above and those that responded to it, I didn't really think it would be this hard. If I were an elitest, I would call for a seperate traditional season altogehter, wouldn't I ? If I were against crossbows based on the way they are drawn, or held, or the mechnical release or the technology that they are wrapped up in, then its not hard to also draw the very same conclusion between compounds and recurves/longbows. You'll see that attitude on the LW and in fact, I am exactly the opposite I think as I approve of crossbows, longbow, recurves and compounds altogether. <font size=1>You keep bringing up let-off and while it is an advantage the average amount of time I spend at full draw before shooting at an animal is about 6 seconds with the longest being 20 seconds. I don't know about you, but I cannot hold my bow back for several minutes and expect to accurately shoot my bow. If you are holding for several minutes and shooting at game, you need to rethink your ethics IMO. Then again you pal around with people that feel it's normal to have a combined 1-17 kill to shoot ratio so I'm not surprised.</font id=size1> I can hold a very long time with a compound and shoot well - I practiced that way. I know my ethics. I never said I felt it was normal to have a 1-17 record, did I ? <font color=red>But humble me - what criteria should I use to pick a hunting partner ? </font id=red> "With all this being put on the table I will say this, I am very happy for you that you have found something that you are passionate about and wish you all the best with it. Just do the rest of us a favor and quit trying to prove (whether it be to us or yourself) how great you are for it. For those of you that feel this post is a little personal it is. This guy has been doing this for over a year now and apparently on several boards. Those of you that know where I am coming from...well, enough said. Best luck to your hunting as well. I AM a better hunter for trying more challenging equipment, that I know just as I became a better hunter when I started using a compound, and I'll make no apologies for that. I have been "doing this" for really closer to 3 years I think, and that being posting my thoughts about sensitive issues, presenting my reasoning and seeing how it hold up to against scrutiny. Abortion, 2000 Presidential Elections, Clinton, quartering to and frontal shots on game, broadhead choice, how to hunt elk, and yep, even crossbows. My "several" board are this one and the LW - I can send you a link if you want the address, but the search engiine over there doesn't work as well as this one, but the traditional archery information that can be found is tremendous. This thread has come near to full circle I think, lots of great input by some and by other just trash talk and dodging because they are anti-crossbow but cannot debate why. Anyone else like to take a potshot before this thread dies a firey death ?? Anyone ? Stealthycat's Photo's |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
got a ? for yall.
if the State said you could not load the xbow untill your are redy to shoot would that satify the bows are pulled the xbow is set aurgement? where does the draw-lock fit in? and as far as scopes go on the xbow. they are not allowed in Fl. during bow seasion. the bow and the xbow have the same gide lines during bow sesion. it does not matter to me one way or the other if xbow are made leagle for general use. i have my permite. i would like to see the xbow allowed in general use at least on priet land. now going by most of the ani xbow thereds i have sean "on other boards to" the 2 bigest reasions i have sean #1 more people will be in the woods "shelfiss reasion to keep hunter # down" #2 we would have more slob hunter in the woods. a slob hunter is a slob no mater what "tool" they hunt with. and a ehical hunter is one nomater what tool they use. "elitles maybe" some of the other popular reasions. i dont want the sesion to be shorer "selfshis reasion" they "the x hunter" have an unfair anvantge they dont have to pull the arower back. well if the xbow is leagle and you think there is an avanatge use one or dont complan about the differance "in gun seasion how many time have you ever heard a singleshot hunter complaying about the grater raped fire capabiltys of a boltgun?" and sence when has hunting become a compitision? how does what one hunter dicides to hunt with efect you? espicaly if you could chose to hunt with the same tool?  L. O. D. Charter member and L.O.S. |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
SC,
Well, since you offered... What I find sad, yet humorous, is that you seem to be very selective when you discuss what "your experiences" are, depending on what side of the fence your feet are planted on at the time. For example, and from the link Arrowsmit posted (these are your words, and your experiences)... <font color=red>"As for my take on this issue, I live in Arkansas. Crossbows are legal."</font id=red> So, you have a lot of experience with the issue? Great. Let's look at what your "experience" bore out when it was fashionable for you to be, as you said, "anti-crossbow".... <font color=red>"Its been my experience that crossbow hunters pick their crossbows up the day before they go hunting, shoot a few shot and then they're off."</font id=red> Your "experience" was that crossgun hunters don't practice much at all. <font color=red>"You dont hunt Camp Robinson, do you ? Man, hat place is loaded with crossbow hunters. Mostly Little Rock archer wannabe's who buy their crossbow on Friday or pull it out of the closest and hunt on Sat and Sun with it." "I'm about 5 miles from Camp Robinson North entrance, about 2 miles from Bell Slough."</font id=red> Your "experience" was, again, that crossgun hunters don't practice much at all. <font color=red>"What you are saying is a reflection of the type of hunters that use crossbows in general. Not real good hunters, not really into spending time to learn their equipment, mostly men who want to fill an easy tag. The result ? Wounded and lost deer..."</font id=red> Your "experience" was that, due to lack of practice, crossgun hunters wound and lose game. <font color=red>"Safety does not have a relevancy to what weapons are used, an idiot with a crossbow is every bit as dangerous, possibly more with no one wearing blaze orange to catch his eye, as an idiot with a gun."</font id=red> Your "experience" was that "idiots" (your word) with crossguns are dangerous. <font color=red>"My experience this past year? I don't remember seeing any other archery hunters at all that I could identify their weapons, period, because of where and how I hunt. I did however see my neighbor take his dusty crossbow out of his closet, shooting 3 different kinds of arrows and rusty broadheads and hitting a 10" groups the day before he was to go hunting. THERE is the problem I think with crossbows. Oh, and the guy on the 4 wheeler, crossbow cocked and ready driving through the woods. Oh, and a guy I know buying one on Friday and shooting one of the biggest bucks my Dad ever seen (it passed his stand about 30 minutes after the guy shot it). Long bloodtrail, it started raining, deer never found."</font id=red> Your "experience" was that crossgun hunters were slobs. <font color=red>"The difference lies in that you and I can pick up a crossbow and have it shooting 3 inch groups in about 5 minutes, and while compounds nowdays are also easy to master, its not that easy."</font id=red> Your "experience" was that compounds were not as easy to master as crossguns. One of my favorites... <font color=red>"We simply cannot have high wounding rates and slob hunters in our ranks and survive IMO. Crossbows invites those kinds of hunters - I've seen it, I know it. The examples I gave are from this year alone. Last year I saw the same thing, year before and year before that."</font id=red> That one speaks for itself. You accuse others of not being able to debate, and dodging, but you exemplify the concept of selective memory? When Arrowsmit calls you to the mat for this, you simply explain it with "I was wrong". Well, what were you "wrong" about? These are your experiences, not your opinions. Did your eyes not see what they saw for all those years? And this, SC, is why I ROTFLMAO every time I see you start another one of these threads. Tell me I can't debate? Heck son, you can't even debate your own "experience". <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle> JRW Edited by - jrw on 11/26/2002 13:56:10 |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
Stealthy, I'll answer your questions and reply to some of your comments.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Question - Do you think my coworker, after shooting the compound we set up and consistantly hitting 4" groups at 20 yards after only two days of shooting ... do you agree with him hunting over Thanksgiving with it and why ? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> From what you indicated in the initial post and the fact that he has only been shooting 2 days, absolutely not. There is a lot more to bowhunting (which someone with as many years under their belt as you would agree to I'm sure) than simply hitting a spot with an arrow. He needs to be able to hit that spot from 40 yards consistently and practice in the different standing, sitting, contorted positions he will potentially face while hunting. If he, or anyone else for that matter, is not doing that prior to entering the woods, he is not being fair to the game he is after. <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Archery skills ... like being able to pick up a compound and never having shot one and hitting a 4" group, that kind of skill ? I will agree that you hold a crossbow like a gun, but the mechnical release of the string and the way the arrow is propelled is that of a bow as defined. But you do have a point. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> I don't consider someone who can hit a spot on a target at 20 yards to be skilled in archery. I could do that in 5th grade gym class with a plastic recurve (albeit not well) and I would not have considered myself a skilled archer at that time. With a compound I consider a skilled archer to be consistent at the greater distances (40 yards and above) making the 20 yard shot a chip shot. With traditional gear there is different criteria due to the nature of the gear. As far as the rest of your post goes, I don't think anyone that has shot both traditional gear next to modern compounds will argue that traditional gear offers a unique set of challenges that take time and effort to master. I applaud you for taking up the challenge. Overall, I don't think you are a bad guy I just hope that you don't dislocate your shoulder patting yourself on the back, because it will be mighty hard to shoot any archery gear if you do. Well, except maybe a crossbow.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
JRW -
" You accuse others of not being able to debate, and dodging, but you exemplify the concept of selective memory? When Arrowsmit calls you to the mat for this, you simply explain it with "I was wrong". Well, what were you "wrong" about? These are your experiences, not your opinions. Did your eyes not see what they saw for all those years? And this, SC, is why I ROTFLMAO every time I see you start another one of these threads. Tell me I can't debate? Heck son, you can't even debate your own "experience". " What I wrong about is judging others on the equipment they use and their hit/miss ratios. What I was wrong about was the ease of use of crossbows compared to the ease of use of compounds - they are not all that different. My opinion and view has changed over the past year or so, thats clear, isn't it ? But you know, I aint ashamed of that nor will I apologize for it. JRW - you ever changed your mind about something ? I don't often, I am not easily swayed nor convinced, but on the crossbow debate I was. Why is the question I think you're wanting answered. I applied the same logic to compounds vs longbows/recurves. Seriously. Those things I said a year ago - that argument was based on two things - #1 that crossbows are so easy to use and #2 that people are irresponsible with them. I think now that compounds are not all that more difficult and are in fact better weapons to use (and I have posted time and gain facts to back that), and that trying to regulate the archery population to adhere to a certain stadard be it ethical or functional - that too isn't possible nor is it the way things work. Fact is, no one can stop that coworker of mine from hunting this weekend with his compound. He has a bow he's shot twice and can outshoot most recurve/longbow shooters at 20 yards. What more need he do ? Practice at 40 yards, practice at 60 yards ... whats the criteria and is that REALLY where we want archery to go - some kind of mandatory break in period or proficiency testing ? A lot of people would fail that - you and I on a given day might fail that, and then, even then you cannot stop a person from taking an ill advised shot - even 11 out of 12 ill advised shot if that were the case. So yes, I was wrong in all of those assumptions, I was wrong on jumping on the bandwagon of the crossbow haters and ethcial police as the term goes. Quite a few people on here are thinking use what you want to as long as its legal and make smart shots - no judging, no my season and your season, not slurs on the equipment used. I think I have matured towards that and you know, I am fine with it as long as crossbows do nothing to take away from archery season. When its proven that they do then they need to be looked at again. Hasn't happened in Arkansas in 30+ years. <u>Charlie P said that recurve/longbow shooters made the same cases against compounds early on - the more accurate comments, the easier to use comments, the whole drawing and holding weight issues, the slob hunters side ... in other words had they won, the majority of you posting and reading this topic would never have gotten a chance to use a compound bow - an easier to use and more effective overall weapon - in legal archery season. Think about that. Thats imnportant. how many of use shoot flintlocks ? How many inlines ? Be honest with yourself and tell me you choose a easier to use wepon because it better fits your hunting style ? And THATS FINE, and its exactly what crossbow shooters do. They still have to get 20-25 yards from an animal just like anyone else. Yes, they have a weapon that some consider easier to use, and some consider compounds that much easier to. Perspective - its all about perspective.</u> So you might have been posting all those quotes to slur me or it might have been to prove an obscure point, but in no way was it debating the topic of compounds, crossbows and traditional style bows, was it ? When I was 16 I said a lot of things I didn't mean, when I was 23 I said and did a lot of things I shouldn't have and wouldn't again and I figure I'll continue to learn and grow throughout my life. Your anti-crossbow argument, the one you post in not so many words and expect people to assemble themselves over the course of a thread, doesn't hold water. I was on your side JRW, I argued too and eventually it dawned on me that I was saying MY archery season, MY opinons on what people should use, MY definiton of ethical - just like you are doing. I'm not saying rules shouldn't exist and that technology isn't going to far - in fact I have some other unpopular views that I like to voice occassionally - but to ban a bow such as a crossbow when the glaringly obvious similarities exist between it and a compound without applying the same in comparison with longbows/recurves - it just doesn't make sense to me and to a lot of people it seems. On a personal note - I'd like to see people shooting longbows/recurves. I think they'd find its a lot of fun - something archery should be. But it ISN'T for me to decide nor dictate. Maybe not for you either. The G&F in Arkansas made that decision years ago ( you were going to tell me how long, right ??) so did Ohio and a couple of others I think and what do we have today ? Record deer herds, bigger bucks than ever, 5 month seasons and libieral bag limits. Crossbows are not bad here (based on those reasons, NOT opinion), I think states elsewhere are seeing that. Stealthycat's Photo's |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
<font color=red>"I think I have matured towards that and you know, I am fine with it as long as crossbows do nothing to take away from archery season."</font id=red>
Oh, but wait a dog-gone minute here. When I quoted stats to show that IL, which does not allow crossguns carte blac, has more liberal bag limits for archery season than Ohio, who does allow them across the board...the wailing and whooping of "selfish" was heard throughout the land. So, it's alright for you to use "do nothing to take away from archery season" as a litmus test, but not for people with whom you disagree? <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle> JRW |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
Stealthy,
This is a rather intriguing thread. I think your arguements are self-defeating, however. It does not matter what the weapon of choice is, if you do not spend extensive time practicing and getting to know the weapon, you will not have the skill levels required to use it in the woods. That is applicable to reifles, with or without scopes, shotguns, with or without scopes, crossbows, with or without scopes, compound bows, with or without sights, and traditional bows. The key to all of these weapons is practicing enough with them so that you know what your maximum effective range is and setting up so that you will be well within that range when a deer follows the trail you expect it to trail. You must also know the entire area around your stand with known distances to trees in your vicinity so you will know if a deer is within your effective range if it happens to meander through the woods by some means other than the trail you expected. With archery gear, which I would choose to define as compounds and traditional bows, you must also practice enough to train the muscle groups that are necessary for drawing and holding the bow for the shot. Why did I give up the compound for traditional gear? Because the comnpound was jarring my shoulder joints when I drew and had to letdown without shooting. I have found the traditional bow to actually be therapeutic in that regard. I do believe you have changed your opinion within this thread as you have endeavored to defend/debate some of the other things you have said. The title of the thread is "Ban compounds from archery season"> Personally, I think you have achieved your purpose by stimulating a lengthy debate. However, in your last couple of posts you said something to the effect of "I have not suggested that compounds be banned from archery season." I believe the thread title suggests just that. Give it a rest. Bill Praise the Lord, He is worthy |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
Further more, and apparently I failed to illustrate the point sufficiently...
Previously, when you were, as you put it, "anti-crossbow", you used isolated incidents of slobs carrying crossbows to draw conclusions about crossbow hunters across the board...which was wrong. In all the times I've debated this issue, here, on the Bowsite, other sites, and in person, I've never once tried to play the "slob card" that's so en vogue. Personally, I've never had the inherent ability to determine someone's ethics by the legal equipment they carry afield. Now that you've flip-flopped, you're still using isolated incidents to draw conclusions across the board, and it's still wrong. For example...Pat and his missed grizzly bear, your buddies the "pin cushion brigade", and your co-worker who took to a decked-out compound like a fish to water. Just like before, you ignore anyone else's experiences that contradict your assertions, but hail those which do. For example...Paul Brunner's experience, my experience, and all of the wounding threads on this forum by hunters using compounds. You expect folks to accept your experiences as the rule, while dismissing other's as the exception. SC, that's not what "debating" is all about. That's what hypocricy is all about (not to be rude). This is what CharlieP tried to tell you, on this very thread, when he said something to the effect that you seem to think that your experiences are indicitive of the way things are everywhere. But, you missed what he tried to say, time and time again. In addition, you talk about debating things, but you have repeatedly failed to grasp some obvious and indisputable facts concerning your arguments. It was stated to you that the only effective difference between compounds and trad bows is the let-off. Everything that you mentioned in order to increase the difference (sights, machined risers, releases, etc.) are all things that can be used, or incorporated into, trad bows. I thought you understood this. You seemed to understand this. But later in this very thread, you went right back to it again...going full circle for the ump-teenth time. This, SC, is why I keep asking if you've caught your tail yet. Look...I have no problem debating crossguns in archery seasons. What I refuse to do is "debate", while the other person ignores indisputable facts and keeps spinning in circles. If you ever want to really debate me on this, I'd be happy to. But, I refuse to help you chase your tail again. Much like Tim Allen's stand-up routine, it was cute once or twice, but it's just gotten old, stale, and boring. JRW |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
" Oh, but wait a dog-gone minute here. When I quoted stats to show that IL, which does not allow crossguns carte blac, has more liberal bag limits for archery season than Ohio, who does allow them across the board...the wailing and whooping of "selfish" was heard throughout the land.
So, it's alright for you to use "do nothing to take away from archery season" as a litmus test, but not for people with whom you disagree? " Are you then saying that crossbows are the reason Ohio has less of a season/less bag limits BECAUSE of crossbows ? I called the Ohio Division of Wildlife at (614) 644-3925 and asked if, since 1976 when crossbows were made legal if they could tell me if archery season had been shortened or bag limits changed for archery hunters and they said no and no. I browsed a bit and couldn't find hard stats on it so I called. IF there was a rduction of season or limit and crossbows were the reason, then I will admit you have a very strong point and would debate that and listen closely. I guess I am asking you to prove that a smaller season in OH is directly due to crossbows being legal - the G&F says no. state hunters kills Illinois 105,000 35,400 33.7% Arkansas 70,000 20,500 29.2% Ohio 180,500 26,000 14.4$ http://www.hoyesoutdoor.com/success.htm Is archery season based on managment principles ? In other words, if the success rate climbs too high or if too many deer are killed are the seasons or bag limits scaled back ? Has this happened ? Success rates show the two states with crossbows actually having lower success rates. I don't know how the correlation is between how many archery hunters vs how many total hunters. http://hunting.about.com/library/weekly/aa020716a.htm A goog read. Bill - You are right in that the title was not literal and that points have been made. My bussy is amazed at the crossbow animosity that still exists. I heard the other night at a meeting here in AR at a private company planning an on-grounds hunt that two guys - a compound shooter and a crossbow shooter, had to be seperated the argument got so heated. Amazing, isn't it ? And the compound shooter never once thought that a longbow/recurve shooter could have laid the same claims to him that he did to the crossbow shooter. Is enough enough ? I HAVE been trying lately to let threads die (Jacko and the airline debates to name a couple) ... I will this one as well soon enough. And I will edit the Thread Title too ... Stealthycat's Photo's |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
JRW - Thats not what I am trying to say - about my experiences being the "golden rule" anymore. I am trying to say the opposite - where I once would have jumped on the 1-12 guy , or for using a not as challenging piece of equipment or defending the compounds as a tougher weapon to use. I DO however think trad equipment like longbows and recurves are tougher weapons to use just as flintlocks are to inlines and slug guns are to high powered rifles. Thats not even debateable as an overall general statment - obviously because of the sheer numbers of people using theit respected choices.
" If you ever want to really debate me on this, I'd be happy to." I'd very much like to do that - you present your argument and I'll reply as to how and why I don't agree. Heck I'd pay for the phone call or the beers to talk it over even. Understanding the "other" view whatever it may be is important. " Just like before, you ignore anyone else's experiences that contradict your assertions, but hail those which do. For example...Paul Brunner's experience, my experience, and all of the wounding threads on this forum by hunters using compounds. " Maybe I wasn't clear, but I DO in fact pay attention. I've sent several emails to Paul questioning broadheads, etc and I am very impressed with Pat and his honesty as well as his composure on that grizzly hunt. If anything I TRY to do that (sometimes I fail too). Did you read the above link "Things I've learned after 8 months" - man thats about EXACTLY me and everyone else I talk to. I've said it before and will again - I think you must be a "natural" in a way to take to a stickbow like you have (like i have heard you have). The rest of us struggle, as that post and the replies to it indicate. My last inquiring post on the LW was of whether a COI head semi-sharp was a better/worse choice than a Thunderhead. Remember ? That was a question, one I don't think you ever gave an opinion on and I wish you would have. Time to let this one die ? Stealthycat's Photo's |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
<font color=red>"Are you then saying that crossbows are the reason Ohio has less of a season/less bag limits BECAUSE of crossbows ?"</font id=red>
Nooooo...what I was saying what that it was hypocritical for you to use something as a litmus test, while I am deemend "selfish" for insinuating the same. We're back to the difference between "debate" and "hypocricy". <font color=red>"I called the Ohio Division of Wildlife at (614) 644-3925 and asked if, since 1976 when crossbows were made legal if they could tell me if archery season had been shortened or bag limits changed for archery hunters and they said no and no."</font id=red> Bag limits haven't been changed since 1976 for bowhunters? Well, in that same period of time, IL went from one deer per year to unlimited doe harvest and a two buck limit (with the exception of the EC 5 county zone). Wisconsin also went from a one deer per year state to multiple harvest, which is virtually unlimited in most zones. You point again was? <font color=red>"Success rates show the two states with crossbows actually having lower success rates."</font id=red> The success rates figures (at least for IL) show the number of hunters versus the number of animals killed. I don't know how they compute them in OH or AR. A success rate of 33.7% is inflated in IL, since it doesn't take into account multiple harvest...which is unlimited in IL...but not in AR & OH. For example, I am ONE hunter, but killed THREE deer in IL last year. Two of my buddies killed none. By that way of computing things, the three os us killed three animals, and therefore our sucess rate was 100%, when in reality it was only 33.33%. I've seen the break-down from 1999 or 2000 (I forget which) that shows how many hunters took a given number of deer. You'd be surprised to see that the "top killer" in the state killed 14 deer that year, with hundreds upon hundreds of others following closely behind. Comparing hunters versus dead deer in IL, which is unlimited harvest, with limited harvest states like OH & AR is apples & grapefruits. JRW |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
By the stats I meant that the bag limits hadn't been changed because of crossbows. Because theres more deer and larger deer kills every year I am sure the limits have changed - but thats nothing to do with crossbows is it ? You did imply that crossbows have an affect on deer seasons though or did I misread that insinuation ?
" Comparing hunters versus dead deer in IL, which is unlimited harvest, with limited harvest states like OH & AR is apples & grapefruits." I'll take your word that thats how the calculations are done - before Thanksgiving I am about all GOOGLED out as far as searches. One more question and I'll take the answer and not add nor dispute it in any way (I promise) - Do you think if Illinois opened archery season up to crossbows that it would directly lead to a shorter season or lesser bag limit ? Stealthycat's Photo's |
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