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RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
I can't believe this thing has gone on for 4 pages! You guys need to get out more! Ok. What did you come up with? Crossbows in or out? I mean, even if you got crossbows outlawed during archery season, a guy could just go out and buy a "DrawLoc" and put it on his compound and he's got an up and down crossbow that he can shoot during archery season. And if they outlawed it during archery season, the crossbow hunters would complain until they got their own season. So the DNR would probably cut the archery season short and make a special season for crossbows. I agree, it doesn't matter what you use to hunt with. But I get the feeling you guys aren't going to be happy until we are all forced to go back to clubs with thorns in them! Or do you want us to cut the thorns off too! LOL Give it a rest guys!
KEEP IT LEGAL. KEEP IT SAFE. OR WE MAY NOT GET TO KEEP IT AT ALL. Edited by - budbowhunter on 11/22/2002 23:50:51 |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
" 1. That wasn't his question...was it? And you wonder why you don't know my position on crossguns in archery seasons? LOL!!!
That was MY question, in addition to his. But they are one in the same. His question was So , then your opposition to crossbows is based on selfishness? , mine was a little sweeter and worded differently but the core meaning of the questions remain - ban them and keep them out not because they have a different look, construction or function, but because they would increase the numbers of hunters in archery season and perhaps even shorten it and the bag limit ?? If thats not an issue, then we're back to the old accessories and how they differ from compound to crossbow to recurve/longbow - something thats already be debunked. I mentioned the guys missing to show that longbow/recurve hunting IS more difficult. Those two guys with compounds rarely if ever missed. I was much like that too. I see a lot of posts on guys missing, forgetting to pick a spot, with recurves/longbows. Because its a more difficult thing to do, to kill a deer with a longbow/recurve. Thats fact anyway you slice is, just like compounds are more difficult than rifles. Compound hunters miss too, however with so many more compound hunters you would expect to hear about as many or more. That does not indicate a percentage though, does it ? I would have jumped on the guy missing so many deer a year ago too. Why ? Because its not a good example of how archery SHOULD go. However, I know the guy, like the guy and what should be asked of him ? He practices, his equipment is good, he's a fine shot, I don't know that he's shot anywhere over 22 yards, he's got compoud experience and KNOWS how to hunt and kill deer ... is that NOT the requirements needed to go bowhunting ? Killing a deer has been hard for him - hell I'm 0 for 2 this year myself and haven't even shot at a deer yet ! THAT guys is something I have learned. Counting misses does not neccessarily indicate the quality of the hunter or the skill of the archer. Something is missing (concentration I think)but thats something that cannot be measured. JRW - You said " As far as your buddies and their track records of misses and wounds... <u>If a person stays within their effective range, they don't go 0 for 5, or 1 for 12 with a couple of wounds.</u> Yes, animals jump the string, and "stuff" happens...but let's be serious. I've got a dollar waitin' on a dime that says their records of missing and wounding would only increase with a weapon that they felt they could shoot even further. My advice for them would be to learn, and stay within, their effective range, or take up a new hobby...like knitting. Yet that is EXACTLY what has happened. TxCowboy - You noticed that too ? He skirted BOWFANATIC's question yet again, as well as mine. Why is that ? <font color=blue>I'll restate my case to clear any confusion. A crossbow is not unlike a compound, the only difference really is the drawing of the bow which can be offset with the argument that crossbows are louder, heavier and more awkward, not as accurate at longer ranges and slower - theres a strong case for crossbows being LESS efficient than compounds as hunting weapons. However a lot of people still want crossbows banned from archery season. Why ? IF its about equipment, then I submit that a compounds is MORE different than recurves/longbows as crossbows are to compounds. Maybe its because theres already enough archery hunters in the woods and more would result in a scaled back season and bag limits ? Or maybe crossbow hunters are slob hunters ? I have yet to see a good solid argument against crossbows in archery season. I know its not a popular stance, but it IS a stance of solid reasoning. I use to hate crossbows and crossbow hunters. After thinking it through I cannot think of a good reason to though. Yes, they choose equipment which is easier to use, not as challenging, but thats a choice. My examples of people shooting and missing with a recurve/longbow were to show the difficulty. Both these guys are hunters, both are accomplished with compounds and rarely if ever missed with compounds. Both these guys know what they can do, know their equipment and practice. Both are fine shots, yet both have misseed quite a few deer. I am 0 for 2 this year, so its not just me - hunting with a recurve/longbow is much more challenging. I mention this because I am NOT bashing the hit/miss success of bowhunters. I've learned a different perspective and view in the past few months. Thats not to say that I don't think bowhunters should be the best at ethics, that we should work our hardest to shoot straight everytime and always make clean kills - thats EXACTLY what I believe, rather I see reality and the difficulties of bowhunting as it is in a better way I think.</font id=blue> Stealthycat's Photo's |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
Excellant post stealtycat.
I have never understood why some "bowhunters" are so biased against other hunters who use different implements for their hunting. The main reason is always "more people in the woods". With less hunters coming into the fold I would be encouraging others to hunt and not take away their way of hunting. Anybody know where there is a "spear" season?<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
SC,
<font color=red>"TxCowboy - You noticed that too ? He skirted BOWFANATIC's question yet again, as well as mine. Why is that ?"</font id=red> 1. I skirted nothing for you. I've laid out my position many MANY times on different forums...for you. For that, you chase your tail, pretend that I never answered you, and lied about me to try to get me to engage you in your "issues". You need some help. 2. You, TxCowboy, and BOWFANATIC have already made up your minds that the ONLY reason to oppose crossguns in archery seasons is selfishness. You're minds are closed, and the name-calling begun. Why entertain you three further? Is there a point to it? When you get to the point where you understand why archery seasons were started, by whom they were started, and the underlying premise of them, maybe you'll get it. When you start to understand who has fought for decades for your right to bowhunt, and who has conributed nothing to the equation, maybe you'll understand. I doubt it though. Until then you hang you hat on catering to the least common denominator, and making everything as easy as possible. And you call others selfish? That's laughable at best. When you think that the sole purpose of archery seasons is to let you grab something with a string, go into the woods, and kill a critter with a sharp stick flying through the air...don't start calling anyone else selfish. You're the case-in-point. SC... I understand how you got to the point that you are now. From what I've seen of you over the past year, you somehow got the impression that hunting with a longbow would be "cool". Maybe it was one too many Fred Bear videos or something? You started pounding your chest, talking about how you had "given up the training wheels", sold your compounds, and "committed yourself" to being a "traditional bowhunter". You got a longbow, shot it for a while, and headed to the woods. After just one month, and having taken no deer, it didn't suit you anymore. Suddenly, the "en vougue" of trad lost its shine and you, admittedly, went with something you refer to as easier. You're not unique. I see your kind every year by the boat-load. Hollier-that thou trad shooter one day...compound-toting trad-basher the next. You float of the winds of whatever suits your needs and damn the rest of us for not agreeing with you. The guys that I shoot and hunt with, compound and trad alike, just sit back and laugh at you and your type. In the course of this, you somehow became a self-proclaimed expert on hunting with a trad bow. You seem to think that your fruitless month in the woods negates the experiences of people like Paul Brunner, who has 45 years as a bowhunter under his belt. How? I have no idea. What I do find funny is that you only came to this great conclusion of yours after you bombed out, like a druggy on the SAT test, at hunting with a longbow. Look...you want to give up the longbow and go back to a compound...fine. Who cares other than you? I hunt with guys who make the P&Y equipment rules look like a Model T, and I couldn't care less. I hunt with guys who's idea of fair chase is 300 yards accross a bean field with a 7mm...so what? They hunt their way, I hunt mine, and we don't think any less of each other for it. You're the only one who has made your own equipment choice such a massive internet issue. I don't know if its some sort of unfounded guilt on your part, or your just looking for a way to bow out of your previous "training wheels" remarks. When you first "found God" in the form of a longbow, you came accross as hollier-than-thou, and I didn't much care for it then. When you fell flat on your face and went searching for a way out, you still came across as hollier-than thou...and I still don't care for it. You can vent your unfounded guilt at me all you want by calling me names and lieing about me. That's fine. When you get your own personal issues sorted out, let me know. Until then, you might want to watch those "hollier than thou" and "selfish" rocks you're throwing, because your glass house is becoming a total wreck. JRW |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
In other words, JRW, what you are saying is a person should beware of straddling a stream as they walk through life, because somehwere down the line the stream is apt to become wider than the person can spread their legs and their butt is going to get wet, and all will see. :)
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RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
ROTFLMAO!!!
Very well put, and right on the money. JRW |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
The reason for crossBOWS being allowed in archery season is because they have a short enough range that MOST hunters KNOW what they are shooting at. Everyone during the season can wear camo safely. NOT because they are harder/easier than a bow or gun. they just fire a similar projectile.
Personally, I like the rules here in WI. handicapped, or over 65 can use a crossbow. But I have nothing agains't xBows...just don't sound like as much fun to ME. BTW...not quite a spear, bit they are trying to pass the atladl (spelling?) basically a spear thrown with a long wooden ladle!!! |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
The ability to brace a weapon against a tree or log, align scope crosshairs on an animal's chest, use no physical effort to impart potential energy on your projectile, and (with the exception of the index finger) remain totally motionless to execute a shot at game are abilities afforded only to stocked, preloaded weapons. They are certainly not afforded to archery equipment.
Centerfire rifles, shotguns, flintlocks, in-lines, and cross-bows are not weapons that belong in a season that ARCHERS established for ARCHERS to enjoy extra time in serene woods to hunt game. Though crossbows share the same basic spring-propultion idea as conventional bows, they are NOT bows and cannot be considered "close enough" to qualify as such. Sorry, but if you want to enjoy extra time in the woods...learn to shoot an actual bow and deal with the same limitations like the rest of us. If you insist on a crossbow, then use it in the general big game season where it belongs. |
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RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
So if you have a son who you'd like to spend time with in the woods and teach to hunt, but is unable due to size and strengh to handle a qualified bow but yet is able to sit with a crossbow and drill centers you'd not take him to the woods because of it? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> One of the many reasons I am happy to live in Ohio. My 3 sons are able to spend more time in the woods enjoying it. My 2 youngest are not capable yet to maintain the legal draw weight to use a compound. However all 3 have their own compound bow that they are practicing with to learn. The oldest uses his own compound to hunt with. The two youngest also have their own recurve and longbow. So using a crossbow until they are proficent with them is fantastic. Anybody that doesnt want kids in the woods to continue the hunting legacy have no thoughts to the future of our heritage. So I am for them using a crossbow so they can be with me. It beats them staying at home and playing video games or watching tv while Dad alone is hunting. Is that want you really want? I know I dont. |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
<font size=2>1. I skirted nothing for you. I've laid out my position many MANY times on different forums...for you. For that, you chase your tail, pretend that I never answered you, and lied about me to try to get me to engage you in your "issues". You need some help.</font id=size2>
Uh, yeah, you did. You haven't answered a single question on your opinion on crossbows so far. What you may or may not have said on another forum, whether I or anyone else read it and whether we exactly remember it, or you, thats NOT an answer in any way, shape or form. <font size=2>2. You, TxCowboy, and BOWFANATIC have already made up your minds that the ONLY reason to oppose crossguns in archery seasons is selfishness. You're minds are closed, and the name-calling begun. Why entertain you three further? Is there a point to it?</font id=size2> A lie as defined by you. I ASKED if that was the reason, never did I say it. Please reread and edit that lie. <font size=2>When you get to the point where you understand why archery seasons were started, by whom they were started, and the underlying premise of them, maybe you'll get it. When you start to understand who has fought for decades for your right to bowhunt, and who has conributed nothing to the equation, maybe you'll understand. I doubt it though. Until then you hang you hat on catering to the least common denominator, and making everything as easy as possible. And you call others selfish? That's laughable at best. When you think that the sole purpose of archery seasons is to let you grab something with a string, go into the woods, and kill a critter with a sharp stick flying through the air...don't start calling anyone else selfish. You're the case-in-point.</font id=size2> Humble me. Again I ask - what did Mathews or Bowtech do for archery season ? Is that part of the equation, who did what and for whom ? <font size=2>SC... I understand how you got to the point that you are now. From what I've seen of you over the past year, you somehow got the impression that hunting with a longbow would be "cool". Maybe it was one too many Fred Bear videos or something? You started pounding your chest, talking about how you had "given up the training wheels", sold your compounds, and "committed yourself" to being a "traditional bowhunter". You got a longbow, shot it for a while, and headed to the woods. After just one month, and having taken no deer, it didn't suit you anymore. Suddenly, the "en vougue" of trad lost its shine and you, admittedly, went with something you refer to as easier.</font id=size2> I bought and shot my first longbow, a Thunder Mountain Cougar in 1995. In 1998 I think I started getting ready for bowseason early summer. First few shots with my compound were dead on - and it ust wasn't that fun anymore. I shot more in the early 1990's than most people have in 20 years. Contracting and single shooting a bow was the only thing I did. Anyway, a friend of mine shoots a BW, and I strated shooting it some. And I found it very challenging. OL Adcock made me a longbow and I got it in January 2001. I shot it all that spring and summer and by fall wasn't consistant enough to go hunting. So I bought another compound and hunted with that in 2001. This year I sold the compound and yes, I "committed" myself to shooting the longbow. I shoot well enough in my eyes to hunt, and the first day in CO I hit a limb and missed a big elk. I hunted semi-hard (between work and kids) in Arkansas and didn't even get a shot. So 4 weeks ago before my Kansas hunt (I waited two years for that tag) I borrowed the HC compound I started this thread off with, tuned it and took it to KS. I switched between it and my longbow, but the last few days used my longbow only. I was shooting every night in the basement of my friends and was shooting better than either of them do. And yep, I again had my arrow hit a limb and missed a big KS buck. VERY frustrating, because I have spent two years practicing, getting my equipment ready, ASKING questions on the LW, and failing to fill my tags. I have goals, I make them every year, and this year I had 4 and have failed in 2 of them. So you see, you DON'T understand, not anymore than I do your anti-crossbow sentiment, but I DO answer questions when asked of me. Brose the BBS archives and LW and you too could read what I just wrote. <font size=2>" You're not unique. I see your kind every year by the boat-load. Hollier-that thou trad shooter one day...compound-toting trad-basher the next. You float of the winds of whatever suits your needs and damn the rest of us for not agreeing with you. The guys that I shoot and hunt with, compound and trad alike, just sit back and laugh at you and your type. "</font id=size2> My kind ? You haven't a clue Jason. I hunt with one BW shooter, my Dad (a Q2 shooter) and my uncle, a crossbow shooter. Trad basher ? Explain that one or edit it please, as it again follows what you consider to be the defintion of a LIE. <font size=2>In the course of this, you somehow became a self-proclaimed expert on hunting with a trad bow. You seem to think that your fruitless month in the woods negates the experiences of people like Paul Brunner, who has 45 years as a bowhunter under his belt. How? I have no idea.</font id=size2> Age is wisdom to some, to be respected to be sure. but it doesn't make everyone older than me right. ANYBODY pro-abortion is wrong, and I can prove it through pogical and reasonable and FACTUAL discussions. Whatever you are referencing, be it kill/wound/miss threads or crossbow thread or how a longbow/recurve is more difficult threads - you will rarely if EVER see me post my opinion without something to back it up. Opinions hold absolutely NO weight in a debate or discussion. <font size=2>What I do find funny is that you only came to this great conclusion of yours after you bombed out, like a druggy on the SAT test, at hunting with a longbow. Look...you want to give up the longbow and go back to a compound...fine. Who cares other than you? I hunt with guys who make the P&Y equipment rules look like a Model T, and I couldn't care less. I hunt with guys who's idea of fair chase is 300 yards accross a bean field with a 7mm...so what? They hunt their way, I hunt mine, and we don't think any less of each other for it. You're the only one who has made your own equipment choice such a massive internet issue. I don't know if its some sort of unfounded guilt on your part, or your just looking for a way to bow out of your previous "training wheels" remarks.</font id=size2> Yes, I am 0 for 2 so far, I have failed in what I am trying to accomplish. Is that waht you are referring ? Today I shoot a longbow Jason, and if I cannot kill animals with it to MY ethical standards, then I will buy me a compound and hunt that way and so be it. I have little problems in admitting that I am not good enough to be hunting with it. Is this a bad thing ? And if I become disabled, or in some way need to use a crossbow, I'll do that do and thank whoever in Arkansas made it possible for me to do that. <font size=2>When you first "found God" in the form of a longbow, you came accross as hollier-than-thou, and I didn't much care for it then. When you fell flat on your face and went searching for a way out, you still came across as hollier-than thou...and I still don't care for it.</font id=size2> What ? <font size=2>You can vent your unfounded guilt at me all you want by calling me names and lieing about me. That's fine. When you get your own personal issues sorted out, let me know. Until then, you might want to watch those "hollier than thou" and "selfish" rocks you're throwing, because your glass house is becoming a total wreck.</font id=size2> Question - What rocks ? Were my posts not in the way of questions more than accusations ? I edited the one post as I admitted I was wrong. What then am I throwing to break glass ? My arguments are quite solid I think, from "drawing the string" issue to "accessories", to "who has done more or less for hunting seasons" to "selfishness". Stealthycat's Photo's Edited by - Stealthycat on 11/23/2002 18:01:55 |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
And a one, and a two, and a...
Yawn.... JRW |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
Once you've committed to allowing non-archery equipment (crossbows) into an ARCHERY season (particularly by reasoning of "it's easier" or "I don't have the time to become proficient with bows" or "I want every technological edge I can get to help me kill a deer if one comes by"), you may as well accept flintlocks, in-lines, shotguns, rifles into the archery season as well.
If you feel that you would have no chance of killing a deer with a bow and that your chances of killing game would be nill or your time spent would be little more than a "nature walk", then hunt the general big game seasons like everyone else who doesn't use a bow. If you are afraid you can't shoot a bow well enough to kill a deer cleanly beyond 10 or 15 yds, then don't shoot at one past 10 or 15 yds. No one said bowhunting is easy. If your kids can't pull a 35# or 40# bow back, bring them along to sit in the woods with you. They'll learn alot and enjoy the experience until they've matured the following year. Some people seem to care less if archery season were done away with altogether. I think some would be quite pleased to have one 3 week season where anything goes. As for me, I'll be damned if I want to risk Pennsylvania's already-short archery season get cut back due to increased kills by an influx of crossbows or guns into the ARCHERY season...particulary not for people who wants to use "easier" or "less demanding" equipment. If crossbow hunters aren't content using their weapons in the general seasons, then they can fight for their own season instead of trying to ride in on the coat tails of bowhunters. They sure don't belong in ARCHERY season. |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
AK - At least you have an opinion and can post it !
<font size=2>" Once you've committed to allowing non-archery equipment (crossbows) into an ARCHERY season (particularly by reasoning of "it's easier" or "I don't have the time to become proficient with bows" or "I want every technological edge I can get to help me kill a deer if one comes by"), you may as well accept flintlocks, in-lines, shotguns, rifles into the archery season as well. "</font id=size2> First off, crossbows go back centuries as archery equipment. To say they are not simply isn't so. Also, as crossbows are easier than compounds, certainly compounds are much easier that longbows/recurves. Your analogy doesn't take into account maximum range of a weapon. With todays techonology, I think thats important. Why ? An inline muzzleloader is legal in most if not all states, and it certainly isn't as traditonal as a cap lock or flintlock. Neither are the sabots and rifle bullets and podwer pellets that make them accurate at 200+ yards with scopes ! But they are legal. See the comparison ? Look at the HUGE changes in compounds in the last 15-20 years - they are nowhere near the same weapons as before. <font size=2>If you feel that you would have no chance of killing a deer with a bow and that your chances of killing game would be nill or your time spent would be little more than a "nature walk", then hunt the general big game seasons like everyone else who doesn't use a bow. If you are afraid you can't shoot a bow well enough to kill a deer cleanly beyond 10 or 15 yds, then don't shoot at one past 10 or 15 yds. No one said bowhunting is easy. If your kids can't pull a 35# or 40# bow back, bring them along to sit in the woods with you. They'll learn alot and enjoy the experience until they've matured the following year. </font id=size2> Personally I feel like I am capable of killing a deer with my longbos and I know when to shoot and when not to. I haven't proved it yet obviously, but both shots I missed "felt" good had I not hit branches. I did not have the confidence last year, and I didn't hunt with my longbow. I agree though, be able to hit what you aim at/look at and practice and work hard at it. <font size=2>Some people seem to care less if archery season were done away with altogether. I think some would be quite pleased to have one 3 week season where anything goes. As for me, I'll be damned if I want to risk Pennsylvania's already-short archery season get cut back due to increased kills by an influx of crossbows or guns into the ARCHERY season...particulary not for people who wants to use "easier" or "less demanding" equipment.</font id=size2> I don't know about Penn, but Arkansas is 5 months, liberal bag limit with does, the woods are never crowded and we allow crossbows, have for over 30 years I believe. I don't believe the reality of crossbows taking season and limits away - its certainly never happened here. HOWEVER, as with IL and archers taking 40+% of the kill, then I can see the possibility now. But in that crossbows need a seperate season, so do compounds, right ? Keeping crossbows out now becomes a selfish issue, wanting to keep hunter numbers down to keep archery season open longer, right ? Thats the track I get from VC's post, can more hunters EVER be a bad thing ? <font size=2>If crossbow hunters aren't content using their weapons in the general seasons, then they can fight for their own season instead of trying to ride in on the coat tails of bowhunters. They sure don't belong in ARCHERY season.</font id=size2> Same exact thing can be said of compounds, and was 25 years ago, wasn't it ? Following your line of logic, we shouldn't allow more advances in archery products for fear of something else like the compound to come along and totally revolutionize archery, right ? P&Y is still hung up on 65% letoff when most bows that are being bought are 80% or variable, right ? And again I ask, what did Matthews and Bow Tech do for creating archery seasons 25 years ago ? Nothing. What they HAVE done is create radical techonology and the best damn shooting compounds available that take accuracy, forgiveness and quietness to a new level - making for a more efficient hutnign tool that is easier to use. Stealthycat's Photo's |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
Stealthy, Yes, crossbows date back many centuries. That still doesn't make them ARCHERY equipment. While I make my own wooden hunting bows and arrows, I certainly don't expect every bowhunter to do the same. Nor do I expect bowhunters to use only manufactured, glass-laminated longbows or recurves. I DO, however, expect bowhunters to use hand drawn, hand held BOWS in the ARCHERY season. If nothing else, the movement and physical effort required to pull a bow shot off at game is a critical point as to whether or not the hunter spooks the game.
As to more hunters being a good thing... In reality, allowing crossbows will likely not generate many NEW hunters. Allowing crossbows in the ARCHERY season does stand to generate an enormous amount of existing rifle hunters to 2-season crossbow converts however. In a state of 1,000,000 hunters and 250,000 bowhunters, there is the potential for 750,000 additonal converts to find their way into the ARCHERY season. Bowhunters are already limited to a 6-week fall and 2-week winter ARCHERY seasons, with a one buck limit and up to 3 doe tags in most of the state. (Though realistically, most counties sell out of their alloted doe tags after the first or second round of tag issuance, leaving the hunter with 1 buck and 1 or 2 doe tags.) Add to that mix that we have game commissioners who openly declare their desire to shorten the bow season, and there exists a very real danger of the ARCHERY season becoming shortened if deer kills rise in the ARCHERY season. Bowhunters wanting to preserve the integrity and heritage of a season set aside for them to use more difficult equipment is hardly selfish. Non-bowhunters trying to intrude their advanced weapons into such a season is. Pennsylvania has at least disallowed the use of draw-lock devices from the archery season...though typical of game commission logic, has allowed the limited use of crossbows for use in the ARCHERY season in special regulation areas only. In PA, flintlock hunters are also battling the cap 'n ball and in-line shooters trying to squeeze their way into the winter flintlock season under similar guises. I feel for them as well. Crossbow hunters should at least have the guts to admit that crossbows are what they are, and to either use them in the general big game seasons or stand up and fight for their own season if they truely want one. Though I suppose in a society where education has been "dumbed down" to make it easier for students to pass classes, where infant pre-birth murder is condoned to eliminate unwanted responsibilities of parenthood, where instant gratification has become the norm, we should only expect that trivial things like ARCHERY hunting seasons are made to make "easier" to accomodate those who lack inclination to face even recreational challenge. |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
My final words (hopefully) on the subject:
Crossbows are NOT NEARLY as similar to ANY bow, as a compound is to a trad bow. To say otherwise lacks common sence. You need not draw, hold wieght, maintain proper form and follow through, and it's really tough to accidently shoot yourself with a bow. IF you simply cannot shoot a bow (handicapped) I would allow a Xbow. if you CAN shoot a bow...bring one come archery season....or don't come. Trad bows are harder to shoot than a compound with sights....that does NOT mean they (compounds) are not bows! The drawing holding and releasing of an arrow, who's energy comes entirely from the archer drawing the bow, to me is what a bow is. I don't care if it's zero let off, or 90%. as long as it isn't 100%. Tell me, SC, what about compounds without sights? That's kinda tough too...is THAT OK by your book? |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
My final words (hopefully) on the subject:
Crossbows are NOT NEARLY as similar to ANY bow, as a compound is to a trad bow. To say otherwise lacks common sence. You need not draw, hold wieght, maintain proper form and follow through, and it's really tough to accidently shoot yourself with a bow. IF you simply cannot shoot a bow (handicapped) I would allow a Xbow. if you CAN shoot a bow...bring one come archery season....or don't come. Trad bows are harder to shoot than a compound with sights....that does NOT mean they (compounds) are not bows! The drawing holding and releasing of an arrow, who's energy comes entirely from the archer drawing the bow, to me is what a bow is. I don't care if it's zero let off, or 90%. as long as it isn't 100%. Tell me, SC, what about compounds without sights? That's kinda tough too...is THAT OK by your book? |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
More like a muzzle-loader or shotgun than any bow in its operation, a crossbow is a short range, one shot rifle that shoots a bolt instead of a bullet. It has no place in any general archery season.
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RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
In either case you have to be able to tell distance or you are going to miss your shot altogether anyhow so what would be the real difference in a compound or crossbow?All bows are the same if you really look at the perspective on it.
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RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Hey, Ohio no longer has an archery season, we have a Crossbow season. In 1989 more deer where taken with an X bow than Compound,long and recurve combined. Last year the number of people using X bow to hunt deer in Ohio was almost 60%. I'm just happy that the X bow folks let me use my archery gear in their season. Yep, this sucks, big time. -- JMHO<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle> <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> How can it suck if you have 119 days to use a longbow,recurve or compound bow? Let see if there was 458,00 tags bought that means that there was 274,800 crossbow hunters. The last statement by The Div of wildlife there was 70,000 xbow hunters and 30,000 that used both crossbow and longbow(meaning all recurve,longbow and compound). Sorry dont see 60% |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
Stealth_Force and AK are right on the money with their statements. When I started archery (for the second time), I did so because I wanted something a little more challenging than a rifle. If I felt a crossbow was more challenging than a handgun, I would have purchased one. I chose a compound bow over traditional because my pro shop doesn't have traditional archery equipment, and compounds are much more fun to "tinker" with in my opinion. Am I selfish? Yep. I love archery. I encourage everyone to participate in the sport, target or hunting. It is my belief that every person who uses a crossbow is one less person who would have otherwise chosen archery.
My experience this fall is a clear example of why any bow is harder to hunt with than a crossbow...Full draw on a mature doe waiting for a good broadside shot. A large buck appears about 50 yards away and he's taking his time getting to my shooting lane. I can't hold my bow back forever so I slowly let-off the bow in a manner that will not spook the doe who is now ten yards from my stand. I almost get the tension relaxed when my release pinches my arrow nock. The arrow falls to the ground...no buck, no doe, and a dissappointed hunter who has since switched to a string loop. |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
AK,
You'd better save that. In another month when old SC starts another one of these threads, somewhere, he'll forget every word you just said and cry when you won't humor him again. BTW, facts and common sense won't work with him either. He'll just chase that old tail again. Case in point... <font color=red>"...Arkansas is 5 months, liberal bag limit with does, the woods are never crowded and we allow crossbows, have for over 30 years I believe."</font id=red> 30 years? LOL!!! This guy wants to discuss "facts" and doesn't even know the "facts" about his own state? This is toooooo funny. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Hint: Ohio was the first state to allow crossguns carte blanc in archery seasons, and that was LESS THAN 30 years ago. <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> Good grief, he really needs to do his homework next time. <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle> JRW |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
AK -
<i[size=2' I DO, however, expect bowhunters to use hand drawn, hand held BOWS in the ARCHERY season. If nothing else, the movement and physical effort required to pull a bow shot off at game is a critical point as to whether or not the hunter spooks the game.[/i][/size=s2] So drawing the bow IS a big factor ? I submit that being able to draw with a mechanical release and hold for a couple of minutes at 85% letoff is also a big factor. The comparison holds - crossbows are easier to shoot than compounds, lets not allow them in archery season. BUT, compounds are easier than longbows/recurves, right ? Ypur argument then goes on by saying ... <font size=2>As to more hunters being a good thing... In reality, allowing crossbows will likely not generate many NEW hunters. Allowing crossbows in the ARCHERY season does stand to generate an enormous amount of existing rifle hunters to 2-season crossbow converts however. In a state of 1,000,000 hunters and 250,000 bowhunters, there is the potential for 750,000 additonal converts to find their way into the ARCHERY season. Bowhunters are already limited to a 6-week fall and 2-week winter ARCHERY seasons, with a one buck limit and up to 3 doe tags in most of the state. (Though realistically, most counties sell out of their alloted doe tags after the first or second round of tag issuance, leaving the hunter with 1 buck and 1 or 2 doe tags.) Add to that mix that we have game commissioners who openly declare their desire to shorten the bow season, and there exists a very real danger of the ARCHERY season becoming shortened if deer kills rise in the ARCHERY season."</font id=size2> I agree here. In fact, I watched my first Fred Bear movie the other night and the first thing Bear Archery said was "become a two season hunter" - right there at the beginning of the movie. I have seen strong arguments to support a "declare your weapon" type licensing, and I think that argument has good points. However, with a state wide bag limit, the G&F has determined how many deer that ned to be taken (lets assume here the G&F KNOWS what they're doing !). They factor in the two season hunters, right ? In Arkansas this is not an issue really, I guess in some states it is. Arkansas has not seen the huge flock to archery season through leglaized crossbows. We have lengthy rifle seasons where some states are muzzleloader only. Maybe this also is a factor then ? If this reason is the core of your argument, then I ask that you show me where legalized crossbows have led to shorter archery seasons, smaller bag limits or something to that nature. <font size=2>In PA, flintlock hunters are also battling the cap 'n ball and in-line shooters trying to squeeze their way into the winter flintlock season under similar guises. I feel for them as well.</font id=size2> Inline muzzleloaders are one shot rifles with the technology they have. Side by side with an old flintlock and they don't look anything like each other. Compare a compound and longbow the same way and its easy to see the comparison I am trying to make. Huge differences in technology from construction to performance. Should inlines be allowed ? They ARE what muzzleloaders are today. They are simply easier to use, better perfomring weapons, not unlike a compound is to a longbow/recurve. <font size=2>...we should only expect that trivial things like ARCHERY hunting seasons are made to make "easier" to accomodate those who lack inclination to face even recreational challenge.</font id=size2> I agree with much you say, however this last part would mean that compounds are so much "easier" compared to longbows/recurves - proven by the sheer numbers of people who use them if nothing else - that perhaps a seperate season for them should apply ? AK - I will say this. Prove to me that leglaizing crossbows will reduce archery season and bag limits, that they will intrduce a bunch of two sport hunters and flood archery seasons to a point that the G&F has to retool archery season and I will agree that a seperate season need to be looked at for them. THAT would be evidence that crossbows are not an addition to archery, but rather a counter productive influx based on equipment only that has a negative impact on archery overall. dmw - <font size=2>Hey, Ohio no longer has an archery season, we have a Crossbow season. In 1989 more deer where taken with an X bow than Compound,long and recurve combined.Last year the number of people using X bow to hunt deer in Ohio was almost 60%. I'm just happy that the X bow folks let me use my archery gear in their season. </font id=size2> Can you give me the stats on how many compound kills and compond hunters compared to longbows/recurves ? Apples to apples, is it not true then that as crossbows are easier to use vs compounds, compounds are easier to use vs recurves/longbows ? Is it not true that compounds 5 years ago dominated your OH archery season even more so than crossbows do today ? Do you see the comparison ? arrowsmit - A popular opinion, however, is the seperation of archery equipment then all about the mechanics of the weapon ? C'mon, an arrow is an arrow - some people shoot 24" arrows out of their compounds, only a couple of inches longer than a crossbow bolt - not a significant difference. A crossbow is used under 25 yards as are most compounds, recurve and longbows. Muzzleloaders, especially inlines, are much farther reaching, they use black powder and a bullet, the crossbow does not, they kill by tissue damage and shock, not by way of broadhead like a crossbow - not a good comparison. bayonets - Do you mean that how people can look at a Lazzeroni topped with a Swarovski laser rangefinde scope shooting out to 600 yards side by side with an old Winchester 30-30 open sights and see both as hunting guns legal in open rifle season ? Do you mean a flint lock compared to a Knight muzzleloader, stainless steel, thumbhole grip, shooting 44 cal bullets with a sabot and 3 pellets (150 grains) fired off by shotgun primers and topped with a 4x12 Zeiss - both legal muzzleloaders ? Do you mean the perspective of seeing side by side a 1966 Bear Kodiak shooting POC shafts and glue on Zwickeys side by side with a HC carbon riser bow, mechnical release, 85% adjustable one cam technology, SIMS stuf all over it, shooting a carbon arrow 340 FPS tipped with a titanium expandale broadhead, fiber optic sights etc etc and seeing both as legal archery equipment ? Stealthycat's Photo's |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
The number of deer taken with a crossbow (or lack there of) does not give an accurate indication of it's ease of use...just the number of crossbow shooters who acctually saw a deer in range!
(I though this might have gotten through...guess not) WHO CARES IF YOUR HOLDING BACK ONLY 85%??? YOU STILL HAVE TO DRAW AND HOLD THE BOW BACK!!! You can shoot a crossbow 1 handed THERE they ARE THAT MUCH DIFFERENT! The ONLY difference in compounds vs. trad is that a compound has SOME let off. WHAT DOES BEING EASIER HAVE TO DO WITH IT IF YOU DO THE SAME THING??? You draw, hold, then release. What is SO different SC? This WILL be my last post on this unless SC has a logical statement to make. |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
litework - <font size=2>Am I selfish? Yep. I love archery. I encourage everyone to participate in the sport, target or hunting. It is my belief that every person who uses a crossbow is one less person who would have otherwise chosen archery.</font id=size2>
I don't know about that being selfish, but with that opinion, then you understand why some recurve/longbow shooters feel compounds should be in a seperate season too, right ? Every compound hunter is one less that could be enjoying a recurve/longbow, right ? Stealth_Force - <font size=2>WHO CARES IF YOUR HOLDING BACK ONLY 85%??? </font id=size2> UH, Pope and Young Club for starters - you know, the Club that is the icon of Archery ? <font size=2>WHO CARES IF YOUR HOLDING BACK ONLY 85%??? YOU STILL HAVE TO DRAW AND HOLD THE BOW BACK!!! </font id=size2> With a mechanical release, with sights and stabilizers, with huge letoffs, with ultra powerful, high techonology limbs/riser/cams with a fancy rest etc etc. Drawing the bow back then is the ONLY criteria to seperate then in your opinon ? If/when a bow is made that you only draw 10", thats cool too huh ? Or a draw lock that in essence holds the bow right at full draw, and you only draw 3" ? Those hypothetical bows would fit your "archery" definiton and be legal then ? Hypothetically ? <font size=2>The ONLY difference in compounds vs. trad is that a compound has SOME let off</font id=size2> Are you sure ? I though cables, riser material, radical design, let off, cams, mechnical release, sights, scopes, stabilizers, rests etc etc were different too ? Of course they are. You listed the ONLY thing different between crossbows and compounds. List all the SIMILARITIES and you'll see a huge list on one side, on the other a very small one. People shoot compounds because they are better weapons and easier to use. In fact, they are better and easier than a compound in many respects, and a whole lot funner to use. But IF your case revolves around the drawing thing, then surly as a crossbow is different from a compound, the drawing, letoff and long holding time of a compound (not to mention the host of other huge difference in accessories, attachments and performance) is vastly different than a recurve/longbow. Is this not correctly stated ? Stealthycat's Photo's |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
Stealth_Force,
You're right...but accessories versus BOWS was already addressed many posts ago. How quickly he forgot that sights, releases, and stabilizers were invented long before the first compound saw the market. Like a flash, he forgot that those SAME accessories can, are are at times, mounted to recurves. Lest we forget those machined aluminum riser recurves with the carbon limbs that some folks hunt with. He's also convienently overlooked the fact that compounds are routinely shot withOUT sights, releases, or stabilizers. Now he's forgotten all about it, and is right back where he started. See what I mean about chasing the tail? Round 'n round we go.... [:v] JRW |
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RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
Stealthycat...I can appreciate you using the Socratic Method to guide me to your answer, but I categorize compound bows and traditional gear as archery equipment; my category is broad but does not include the crossbow. Maybe it's because I live in Virginia where the crossbow is banned. Maybe it's because a preloaded crossbow with a scope is more effective than my .454 handgun (without a scope) at distances under 30 yards. The differences between a crossbow and compound/traditional archery are great. The differences between traditional archery and compound archery are minute when comparing the vast differences of the crossbow and compound/traditional bows. We do not divide rifle season into magnum rifle vs. sub-sonic rifle season, and I think you could make a stronger argument there. I appreciate your love for traditional archery, but I already pay more than I like to spend for an archery license and the general firearms license (I use a bow during firearm season). Please don't make me fork out another 20 bucks for a seperate traditional season, as well.
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RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
JRW, thanks for acknowledging my post but you still didn't state your reasons for your opinion on this issue. To be honest, I'm not sure you've even stated your exact opinion on the issue, much less your reasoning. You keep referring to how you've stated all of this on many forums etc? Forgive me but I nor have 99.9% of the other people in this debate have read your opinions on the other forums, where ever they are. So maybe your reasons for not wanting crossbows in archery season isn't for selfish reasons, I'll buy that. I'd just like to know what they are, that's all.
-------------------------------------------- Hunting the Piney Woods of Deep East Texas. |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
I got to get my opinions in on this as I've been involved in the crossbow issue here in NY. First let me say I have absolutley nothing against the crossbow in itself. But I'm ABSOLUTELY against the introduction of the crossbow into any archery season. The crossbow simply put ISN"T a bow. Its shoulder held on a rifle rest. Its always cocked, and loaded ready to fire, it can be equipped with optics equal to guns, it shoots bolts not arrows, they are easier to shoot than a compound or recurve, long bow I don't care what anyone says. I've shot them, and so have friends of mine. They are easier to shoot more consistantly than any type of bow, and best of all they make the perfect night poaching weapon!
Now let me do point out I don't have a problem with physically challenged persons that are not capably of using a bow to be allowed to hunt with a crossbow, and I wouldn't be opposed to crossbow's having their own hunting season. But I will not agree to the legalization of crossbows during archery only seasons,period! |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
Oh 1 more thing to add, and maybe any Ohio residents can help with this one if haven't alreadly. The statistics I read on Ohio once the crossbow was legalized into their archery seasons. Deer are being killed more by crossbows then any archery equipment, and that stat is rising. I don't know about many of you, but I surely don't want to be sitting in my treestand with my archery equipment whether be a compound or recurve, and have another guy in the woods not far from me using a crossbow!
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RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
"arrowsmit - A popular opinion,..."
...huh? Shooting a x-gun more closely resembles firing a rifle than shooting any type of bow, and they shoot bolts, not arrows. That's fact, not opinion. "however, is the seperation of archery equipment then all about the mechanics of the weapon ?" Who's trying to separate archery equipment? "A crossbow is used under 25 yards..." Where do you get this stuff? Wake up Toto..you're not in Kansas anymore. |
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RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
Aw heck...Atlatl's for everyone<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>
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RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
A spear is harder to use the a recurve!
If every bowhunter had to use a recurve then there would be a lot of deer running around with arrows stuck in them. Just a thought. GOD HAS BLESSED AMERICA! |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
AK, You'd better save that. In another month when old SC starts another one of these threads, somewhere, he'll forget every word you just said and cry when you won't humor him again. BTW, facts and common sense won't work with him either. He'll just chase that old tail again. Case in point... <font color=red>"...Arkansas is 5 months, liberal bag limit with does, the woods are never crowded and we allow crossbows, have for over 30 years I believe."</font id=red> 30 years? LOL!!! This guy wants to discuss "facts" and doesn't even know the "facts" about his own state? This is toooooo funny. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Hint: Ohio was the first state to allow crossguns carte blanc in archery seasons, and that was LESS THAN 30 years ago. <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> Good grief, he really needs to do his homework next time. <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle> JRW <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> And I get accused of "reverting to name calling" (which btw , I'd like you to point out where I reverted to name calling) You've still contributed nothing to this post , other than letting everyone know your against "crossguns"(<Your term). Slick Willy would be proud of your dance moves. Take a good look at what you just did in your above quote! There may not have been any name calling , but you went out of your way to make him appear stupid. Still waiting for an honest answer slick! Edited by - bowfanatic on 11/25/2002 09:49:31 |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
litework -
" The differences between a crossbow and compound/traditional archery are great. The differences between traditional archery and compound archery are minute when comparing the vast differences of the crossbow and compound/traditional bows. " Please list ALL those similarities and differences and I think you'll see something different. BuckAlley " The crossbow simply put ISN"T a bow. Its shoulder held on a rifle rest." Define a bow please. Websters says .. Bow: 2 : a weapon that is made of a strip of flexible material (as wood) with a cord connecting the two ends and holding the strip bent and that is used to propel an arrow Arrow : 1 : a missile weapon shot from a bow and usually having a slender shaft, a pointed head, and feathers at the butt Bolt : 1 a : a shaft or missile designed to be shot from a crossbow or catapult; especially : a short stout usually blunt-headed arrow By those defintions, a crossbow, compound, longbow and recurve all are bows. " Its always cocked, and loaded ready to fire, it can be equipped with optics equal to guns, it shoots bolts not arrows, they are easier to shoot than a compound or recurve, long bow I don't care what anyone says." Not caring what anyone else says does not make it true, does it ? I just proved a bolt is an arrow and a crossbow IS by defintion a bow. Optics ? Compounds can be and are equipped with scopes. Easier to shoot ? How much easier can it get than the guy I first mentioned ? Never had shot a compound and put 4 arrows in a 4" circle at 20 yards ?? " I've shot them, and so have friends of mine. They are easier to shoot more consistantly than any type of bow, and best of all they make the perfect night poaching weapon! " I owned a Barnett and a Horton at one time. I don't care for them because they are loud, heavy, aint fun to shoot and I found them LESS accurate than a compound. Easier to use ? Again, how easy compared to what and how accurate compared to what ? As for the poaching ... thats a crock. Blame the poachers, not the weapons they chooce to use. With that mentality lets ban all handguns and crime will go away, right ? JRW - Ohio in 1976, right ? Arkansas made statewide crossbows legal in archery season about 1982 according to Mike Cartwirght at the Calico Rock Regional AG&F office. He said that crossbows were legal in some zones as early as 1950. According to the below website crossbows were legal more than 30 years ago. http://www.times-news.com/outdoor/outd149.htm Furthermore, this piece says http://www.outdoorlife.com/outdoor/n...353380,00.html ... " But the biggest news came from Georgia, which became the first state in nearly 25 years to legalize crossbows for non-handicapped persons during the archery season, thus joining Arkansas, Wyoming and Ohio as the only states that currently recognize crossbows as bowhunting gear. " meaning Arkansas has had legal crossbows for at least 25 years. So with that in mind, please give me the website you get YOUR information at and tell me when Arkansas had legal crossbows ? If I am wrong I will edit and admit it, I got no problem with that. I see you haven't edited your posts nor have admitted being wrong though, isn't that funny ? BuckAlley " I don't know about many of you, but I surely don't want to be sitting in my treestand with my archery equipment whether be a compound or recurve, and have another guy in the woods not far from me using a crossbow!" Why ? I hunt during rifle season with a bow, no problems, why would a crossbow be any different ? arrowsmit - " ...huh? Shooting a x-gun more closely resembles firing a rifle than shooting any type of bow, and they shoot bolts, not arrows. That's fact, not opinion." Lets see, a crossbow has a release, a compound has a release, a crossbow has sights, a compound has sights, a crossbow is geld full draw, a compound can be held for several minutes, a crossbows gets 250-300 fps, a compound gets 250-300+ fps .... what were we comparing again ?? See above defintions for arrows and bolts, crossbows shoot arrows, arrows ARE bolts. Arnie - " is shooting a crossbow an advantage ? Why seperate them from archery season without also seperating compounds ??" Excellent question. I think its a small advantage, sights, high letoffs, one cams, mechnical releases, carbon arrows, expandable broadheads ... THOSE give more advantages altogether, I watched a Real Tree video last night and that Wadell fellow drew and held a very long time on a bear before getting the shot. Remember the Primos Elk video this year ? The guy held a LONG time on an elk looking at him and the moment the bull turned the guy shot. No way a longbow/recurve shooter could have made that shot. <font color=red>JoeMagee -" If every bowhunter had to use a recurve then there would be a lot of deer running around with arrows stuck in them. Just a thought." That thought is based on what ? Seriously, are you suggesting trad shooters would/miss more animals per bow than compound shooters ?</font id=red> Stealthycat's Photo's |
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>That thought is based on what ? Seriously, are you suggesting trad shooters would/miss more animals per bow than compound shooters ? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
You posted on here about all the misses you and your frinds have experienced,right? Me and my buddies all shoot compounds and we haven't missed 1/10 as much as what you posted. |
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