RE: 2 Minutes - 2 Button Bucks
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The new thinking from Biologists is that a certain percentage of them will die anyway, so taking them out is still a good part of herd management. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Dale,

This statement needs a little more detail to make sense. What exactly are the biologists saying? Predation will take a certain number regardless of how many are killed by hunters. Carrying capacity should only come into play in certain areas where there is overpopulation or drought. Disease may take more fawns than adults, but why would disease losses be less if more buttons are taken by hunters? If late-born buttons don't tend to make it through the winter, that shouldn't matter, because hunters aren't selective. They will shoot bigger, slightly older buttons as well as the small buttons.

It would seem to me that if a small number of buttons are shot, the biologists wouldn't be concerned, but I can't imagine they advocate shooting them, but then again I haven't read the latest research. Anybody know any links to this subject on the net?

RE: 2 Minutes - 2 Button Bucks
 

Congrats to your dad on his first bow kills. I always tell everyone to shoot &quot;A&quot; deer the first good opportunity you get when you start bowhunting. It'll make you a better hunter and more prepared mentally when the big guy shows up. If you wait 2 or 3 or as some on these boards have done(15 years <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> and your first attempt is at MR Big... you'll probably melt down. NY has some very big button bucks. I shot one once that dressed at just over 100 pounds. Heck, our does don't usually weigh that much. Hey folks, you got to remember this gal is from the BRONX.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> They have a hard time identifying anything that doesn't feed on concrete.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

AGAIN.... Congrats to your dad.

RE: 2 Minutes - 2 Button Bucks
 

For a second time Ladybowhunter, congrats to your father in law.

Grim Reaper in Va. you can take 2 deer without tagging the first before the second, as a matter of fact this year I could have taken 2 doe in less than 3 minutes, I knocked the first down in plain view of me and after I nocked another arrow and lite up a well deserved smoke to celebrate and wait, I spotted movement to my left, another doe was walking towards the one I had already knocked down. Well I was totally unprepared and she busted me and took off as I started to put the pin on her.

Mike from Texas you say a bowhunter is unethical if they can not tell if a button is a button or not!! I have to assume that there are no real buttons where you hunt for you to make a statement like that, I have seen buttons where the antler/button was not visible above the hair as a matter of fact in fact if it is bucks only in Va. and you kill a button where the antlers are not visible above the hairline you can be written up for killing a doe.

I do not remember who said it, but I laughed out loud when they said something about &quot;you should be able to see both thier antlers and there balls&quot; I am paraphrasing here, but who ever said that must have some well hung young bucks in the area they hunt! LOL

The worst thing about this whole thread is how instead of being a congradulatory and teaching opportunity about making sure your bow is well tuned and you practice with what you are shooting, it turned in to an insulting thread that took everything away from someone who has every right to be proud of his accomplishment.

The Tazman aka Martin Price
Founder and President of
Virginia Disabled Outdoorsmen Club

RE: 2 Minutes - 2 Button Bucks
 

I hesitate to even respond, since a certain element found another thread to bicker and whine aout, but here goes...
Bob Zaiglan
Deer & Deer Hunting

&quot;although hunters might shoot fewer buck fawns by using binoculars or waiting until several deer are visible....any restriction decreases the antlerless harvest and hurts management goals.&quot;

&quot;hunters hsould strive to reduce antlerless deer numbers with little or no effort to &quot;spare&quot; buck fawns&quot;

For those who don'tknow, Bob Zaiglan was a pioneer of QDM, and managed Texas herds for a living before anyone on this board heard of QDM. Heck, he was promoting shooting does and letting little bucks walk before most of us picked up our first bow.

In the article, I believe he was stating that the vast majority of hunters hunt a few days a year, and these types of hunters make up the bulk of the harvest, so placing restrictions on their antlerless harvest would hurt the goal just about every state has of reducing deer numbers, and managing for quality.
You get the feeling he would certainly reccomend to seasoned, experienced hunters to shoot a doe, since the people who are in the woods dozens of times each year don't find it difficultt to identify a bb, and have little trouble finding a doe, or doe fawn.
Most hunters don't spend all day on the internet talking aout hunting, so the people here are the minority, and I'd certainly recomend passingg bb, but not if you're a new hunter.
I've also had some formal teaching in Wildlife Management, I took classes under Dr Dave Samuel at WVU while obtaining a Biology degree, so while I'm far from an expert like some here, <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> I do undersand the terminology.

That's the latest thinking in managing deer for higher quality, balanced sex ratios, etc.





&quot;In heaven, even the fish have antlers&quot;

RE: 2 Minutes - 2 Button Bucks
 

Ok now lets realy piss down our tarsel gland. In the states that you have to take an anterless deer before you can take a buck, how many of you have killed a button just to get a chance at a buck? And don't lie.

RE: 2 Minutes - 2 Button Bucks
 

Ladybowhunter38,

It would seem that you have stirred up quite a bit of a hornet's nest here. It is very rare that I take off to go hunting and come back to find a thread with 80-some responses-4 pages in only a 2 or 3 day time span.

First, I would like to congratulate your father for harvesting two deer. It is quite an accomplishment.

As for the other comments related to this issue....I would sincerely suggest that he spend a little more time with his equipment since we do owe it to the animals to offer a clean, humane kill. I would assume that he was to some extent proficient with his equipment if he shot two deer and recovered them in under 45 minutes. Regardless of whether he shoots fixed blades or expandables a bow should be properly tuned prior to any hunt. Now, these last few comments were not a lecture or my condemning your father. Quite the opposite actually. I was just offering some friendly advice.

As for the issue of the deer being button bucks.....

...I think JRW summed up my feelings rather nicely....

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

The only argument that I've seen thus far against shooting button bucks is that they will never have a chance to become antlered bucks...and possibly a trophy buck. Folks, this is NOT an ethics issue, it's a trophy hunting issue. If you're a trophy hunter then fine, let them walk and wait for a deer that will make you happy. It's your right, and your decision to make. Please remember though, some of us never were, are not now, and have no desire to be, trophy hunters.

JRW
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

RE: 2 Minutes - 2 Button Bucks
 

Ladybowhunter38 - Congratulations to your dad-in-law.

This issue with button bucks has been a disgusting read. What's the big deal people? A button buck might well be next years trophy, but harvesting a doe does more harm to a deer herd population.

I support harvesting deer within the legal boundries. I don't bowhunt for racks, I have enough of those. Does or button bucks still fit in the freezer.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Just my opinion.



GForce

Shoot often - Hunt always

RE: 2 Minutes - 2 Button Bucks
 

6ptsika,

So if I'm interpreting that correctly, they are not actually advocating shooting buttons, just saying it's unavoidable if they are going to meet their goal of reducing the deer herd. That I can understand.

RE: 2 Minutes - 2 Button Bucks
 

LadyBowHunter,
Send your FIL my congratulations on his first two bowkills. They will make for some very good eating. I never did like the taste of horns myself. You have to cook them too long to make them soft enough to eat.

The only difference between a doe and a yearling (either sex) is how I'm gonna butcher it up. A big fat doe gets the regular treatment and the tender yearling gets quartered for the grill. Yummy!!

Like some of the other true archers who really want to improve our sport instead of degrade it, I would recommend your FIL spend some time tuning his setup before the next hunt. We all have to start somewhere and I'm sure he has learned from his experience and I wish him the best of luck on the next hunt.

To the trophy police,
Shut up and go away!!! If the guy pulling the bow doesn't care if they're buttons why the hell should you???? He's not hunting on your land and with your attitude, not many novice hunters will hunt with you. We have always had novice bow hunters and we always will have novice bow hunters since (thank God) there are more born every day. What our sport does NOT need are idiots claiming they are experienced running off the novices who are trying to learn. I've shot quite a few buttons and them little horns didn't get in my way one bit and they certainly didn't keep you and your kind from your horn hunting. Since when does trophy management have anything to do with ethical shot placement anyway??

On the management issue,
I hate to dissappoint the horn hunters, but I probably live in one of the hardest hunted areas in the U.S. Our deer get dog hunted, still hunted with rifles, bowhunted and smokepoled in continous cycles for 4 1/2 months each year and it is not unusual to hear poachers shooting in the middle of the night either. With all of that hunting pressure, I killed a 6 1/2 year old nine point last year and have seen two large racked deer so far this year. One of them VERY large. You could go out bowhunting for button bucks on your managed land every outing and you still won't get them all so stop being so anal about your management practices and try to enjoy hunting a little more. Killing a button buck now and then is NOT going to ruin your precious little trophy kingdom. You need to do a little MORE hunting and a whole lot LESS preaching.

RE: 2 Minutes - 2 Button Bucks
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>On the management issue,
I hate to dissappoint the horn hunters, but I probably live in one of the hardest hunted areas in the U.S. Our deer get dog hunted, still hunted with rifles, bowhunted and smokepoled in continous cycles for 4 1/2 months each year and it is not unusual to hear poachers shooting in the middle of the night either. With all of that hunting pressure, I killed a 6 1/2 year old nine point last year and have seen two large racked deer so far this year. One of them VERY large. You could go out bowhunting for button bucks on your managed land every outing and you still won't get them all so stop being so anal about your management practices and try to enjoy hunting a little more. Killing a button buck now and then is NOT going to ruin your precious little trophy kingdom. You need to do a little MORE hunting and a whole lot LESS preaching.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

That funny, after having just read your sermon!