ABM, you know the flip side to it and have seen it!

I agree, it aint perfect, and education alone isnt helping! Peoples "NEED TO KILL" is some of the biggest problem! The class and the shooting portion is not ment to fail! Its ment to educate, and when you look at it, even if you could NEVER pass this class, it limits you to what....5% of all of alaska MAX? (top of my head)

Instead of picking out the bad its time to pick out the good, many new archers/bowhunters take the test. For the seasoned bowhunter, the class room is a joke! IE "whats the difference between antlers and horns?" One of the toughest questions on the hole stinking thing!

Now I hear the complaint on the shooting range deal, mandatory proficency at someone joe snuffy's idea of the avg effective range of MOST bowhunters. No its not perfect, but also look at some of the folks taking the class! Walking in with tags on bows, walking out and pulling arrows out of a kmart display case, using someone else equipment (the fella in front or behind them), absolutly clueless to whats right and wrong, heck even admitting they have never shot before and are only there because they had to be, now unleash them all on animals and see what the areas become like! I think the hole idea isnt to LIMIT, or DISCRIMINATE, its to EDUCATE that it isnt right! Sit at one shoot, you'll see, heck help out and run the blood trailing portion, no one fails it, its to help teach, and btw, some of the instructors make blood trails that look so real you full expect to walk up on a dead moose/bear/caribou or what have you (jus make sure to bring your own rubber gloves, take that one from experience)! There is good and bads to everything! Its time we take the good and try and "fix" the bad, or make better what we feel isnt right!

I'll tell you, there are very very few that are in this "15 yard boat" that CANT pass this class considering 2 targets are over 20 yards, none over 30! Of those 2 targets, on has both shots over 20, the other has 1 the rest are 20 yards or less! Quite frankly I have YET to meet one who cant and claims this 15 yard gig yall talk of, be it at the ranges, bizaars, classes I help teach, Mn, Mo, Wy, and Ak, where ever! No one has ever complained it effected them that way! Most say its to easy, others say dang I knew never that, now i KNOW what is expected of me as a bowhunter whether or not they choose to shoot/hunt an animal at 20 yards is there choice! Do we need to make it harder, nope, easier, maybe, like I said, we aint TRYING to fail anyone, or discriminate against anyone! Lord we discriminate, next thing well be getting sued!!!

I really feel we should make it a trad card or compound card. I feel if you can prove your proficency with a longbow/recurve, or a compound you'll be able to switch to a different bow of the same type, say ya buy a new one or ya have 11 like me and want to hunt with one for keepsakes reasons, needing to recertify because the serial numbers are different is assinine at best! You'll find many folks re painting numbers so they dont have to recert......On the flip side, I feel its a joke many folks going to trad, or trad guys who are not proficent enough, and I say that lightly, and to put it mildly cant hit the ground if it jumped up and bit them on the head LITERLY, take the test with wheels to get it out of the way kinda thing, then hunt with stickbows. Its mainly showing they know how to shoot a compound but cant with sticks....


As for your funding. The class costs a measly 5 bucks. The doughnuts and coffee costs more. The 3d's are cheap due to the reason we get a good discount usually, the state supports it also, so some of our robert pittman money goes to good use and not creating wildlife viewing areas as they are talking of doing with a few mil the state "HAS to find a way to get rid of" this coming year...GASP! Thats the head of our state fish and game dept for ya...anyways. Costly no, hassle no, easy yes!

The test can be retaking whenever there is a class or at any approved ranges. You can however not retake the test the same day! btw ours consists of 4 targets, 8 arrows, 5 out of 8 kills max 30 yards (actual longest 28 yards at an elk target!) and one blood trail IF there is enough instructors to run the BT.

Speaking of the "old timers" if youw will. Most states have adopted the laws (grandfathering in), but havent limited all to needing the class expect for the bowhunting classes from what I have seen. Reason, its hard to ask a life long trapper 50 some years old, growing up to take a how to trap and "trapping proficency test" now would it! The guy could probably teach the test! Give it a few years, you wont be asking that question again!

it would be nice to see classes for all the other weapons, right now we have muzzleloader classes required for all muzz only areas! It may not stop all, but if it helps one the class is worth it!

As far as using minimum weight bows hunting requirements for the class mandatory. I dont feel thats a good thing. Reason, your son, wife, or friend, may want you to teach him how to be a bowhunter. The class has some great albeit outdated knowledge, not to mention guides, longtime hunters or many different weapons etc etc, taking the class or teaching it. The person taking it can sap all the knowledge he can get and hopefully retain some, not to mention meet other bowhunters, something many people look for but cant seem to find! You show someone THE RIGHT WAY to do things, and they are 10x's likely to follow that. You however show them the unethical route and that is what they were taught from square one, that is how they are probably going to hunt for the rest of there lives....We know someone like that now dont we Arcticbowman, 17 counts of game violations if I remember right! Anyways, it will still allow the kid to LEARN, but yet he cant HUNT till he meets the weight requirements which may be that next fall or the following spring. We can only hope his mentor will walk him the right path but not allowing him/her to shoot would be a big time bad! Not to mention wives, friends or anyone for that matter! Someone wanting to become a bowhunter, realizing they cant hunt till they hit say 40lbs, and needs a class but they cant take it till they hit 40lbs, will more then likely never bowhunt! It will be to cumbersome for them to bother. Yet if you allow them to start the learning process BEFORE they have the chance to hunt, they know what is expected of them. You can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink theory.....start them on the right path, and they are more then likely to follow it!

As for you deer problems and overrun Krisken, what do you think of a registration hunt stopped when a certain quota is reached. They start the hunt on day X. The fish and game service knows they have a max allowable harvest of XXXXX deer (or whatever critter at hand). You already have to register your dang deer to begin with so the only thing you would have to do prior to the hunt is register which could be done over the phone before the season starts. When the quota is reached, the hunt is finished. If any deer are left, they are given out on a first come first serve basis, with a end by date for the hole hunt. If the numbers are not met by date XXXX , the hunt is done. If there are surpluss animals or they really want to reduce the heard, the season could be longer etc etc. I dont know how you could get it into your state fish and game but put out feelers, I'd bet it would work quite well!

We talk about policing our own, and most seem to agree on it, this is one way to do so in the edumacation department! I wish it would never break down but unfortunatly it happens! Thats must my life savings on it, and I hope to fix some of it in the future, for now its what we got and have to deal with it!

I can't believe that this continues like ground hog day. Hunter education for starting hunters is a good idea. Maybe a one time class before you get that first license to drill in the ethics and need to practice. To require a mandatory proficiency test even at five bucks is a waste of time and just creates more regulation by government that is a waste of money and another way to keep track of the evil hunters out there. You guys know that most people can hit a pie plate at 20-30-40-50 in the first few hours with a well tuned bow and the shop can tune it for you. That has nothing to do with what you do at first light with an animal coming in on you. I have seen groups of hunters open up on a herd of elk with rifles and they could shoot just fine. So what mandatory national proficiency test is going to keep these road hunting pigs out of the woods?

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No offense Krisken but how would requiring shooting tests improve upon hunting? I can't see it really. I know many hunters who can stack arrows on top of each at 50 yrds. but still get buck fever and occasionally miss at the real deal. If we want someone to become profiencient with a weapon on game then we as hunters should take some under our wing, teach them and help them become profiecient.

And we certainly don't need states to get involved adding more laws to the books. I want to add one thing. It bothers me to hear of wounded game, I have done it and I am sure most here have too at one time or another. Hunting is not bloodless and is not perfect but in reality, this movement to civilize hunting will more than likely be the eventual downfall of it.

A really neat hunting tape that we have at our shop shows Rod White, Olympic Champion Rod White, missing a buck at about 20 yards, he shot over it's back. That's buck fever and everyone has experienced it at least once in his/her life, that's part of the hunt, being a slob and buying a bow the day before season starts and shooting it for the first time the same day is a whole different story.

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Krisken-After all that yelling I still have not heard one good reason that says a proficiency test will improve the sport. You are right on in that you can't legislate ethics so what is all this testing talk for? I think we have an emotional discussion without much logic behind it. Your 10 year old can pass the shooting test now so I rest my case. Any dork can shoot a pie plate but not everyone understands how to hunt with skill. How will any test get that across? I just think that if we all talk about the lousy people in the sport and push to pass a bunch of useless laws then it will just feed the antis who want to help us by passing all the laws they can. No offense to anyone here but I love to hunt and disagree with you about how to help it out. Good hunting.

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WHOA WHOA WHOA ethics and be being able to hit the broad side of a barn are 2 very differnt thing's. First I will answer the question about " how does passing A test make hunting better? Well it takes a guy who bought a bow today from going to the woods tomarrow. It keeps the slob who can't hit a vital sized target 3 or 4 times in a row out of the woods. A guy who has been hunting for 40 years probably would be responsible enough to practice and take good shots so this test shouldn't even bother him. Also you say well what about the guy who only takes 15 yrd. shots well come on thats a crappy excuse and you know it any one who can shoot good at 15 can shoot good at 20 yrd.s it's only five more more yrd. and like someone else said how many people do this? Then what about the guy who can stack arrows on top of each other at 60 yrds. but flings arrows at deer at 100 yrds. come on another bull crap excuse a guy who is that proficient with his bow definetly knows his limitions and I doubt he would even be shoot 60 yrds. when hunting live animals. Now case c the hunter with a scoped bow if he has a scoped bow and robin hoods arrows then his hunting bow is going to be set up as good and shooting at peak preformance come on this guy cares about how he shoot's so this is a baloney excuse. now the other guy already explained how they would fund and people would help do it so I will leave that alone. Now you say what about the guy who is a world champion and gets buck fever. Well here goes this guy can nock the eye ball out of a nat at 30 yrds. I saw that show and he later killed a deer with a good shot and I believe he misjudged the yardage. This guy can make the shot easily but the guy that can't hit his own rear end couldn't hit the deer if he had buck fever or not. GleninAZ you called out krisken on answering your question well I did it for him so now you answer my original question how are you over regulated? There is no regulation about the only thing we can't do is spot light at night and shoot them out the window of the truck. We owe it to these animals to be able to cleanly kill them. With out a doubt every one will at some time loose a deer or make a bad shot. What we are trying to do is weed out the guy's who never make a good shot. Look at it like this you and I might loose one deer for every 20 we shoot the guy that can only hit a pie plate at 20 yrds. 1 out of 6 times will wound 5 deer before he hit's one in the vitals. How can we be over regulated there is no regulation. I still stick to my belief that the only people who don't like this are the one's who would have a problem passing it!

There really isn't any way to stop someone from buying a bow in the morning and going hunting with it that afternoon or the next day. Legislate all you want, it won't stop someone from going into the woods with that type of mentality. That is the reason they carry the label "slob". It is a similar argument that gun contol people have, "get the hand guns out of the hands of the common person. Make it illegal for them to have one then we will cut down on crime." The problem with that kind of logic is that the bad guys don't care what the law says...neither do "slob hunters".

I would have no trouble passing a proficiency test but I can't see it being an answer to this discussion. Why would we want anyone from outside of our ranks having a say in what is pro or con? I know what the rebuttle to that question would be, "bowhunters would be running the program!". Perhaps, but then again maybe not. We have all seen cases where good intentions met with disaster when legislation was introduced. It seems like it usually ends up on someones desk that doesn't have a clue what were are dealing with.

I have witnessed first hand what education does for bowhunting. I have sat side by side in the treestand with young teenage hunters who let deer walk if they were less than a six point (self imposed rule) or did not present a good angle (or comfortable shooting range)for a shot. We're not talking seasoned hunters here. They were as anxious to take a deer as anybody would be but they were "taught" to make things work in their favor and not take high risk opportunities. I can assure you when I was young I would have not displayed this type of discipline. I wasn't schooled in this fashion, I had to "learn" a few things over the years. I know a bow hunter that is a very good shot but is not disciplined as well as those young kids were. Good character, discipline, or ethics if you will, cannot be legislated and you really cannot separate them in this discussion because they are intimately entwined to the problem at hand.


Edited by - Antler Eater on 11/10/2002 22:23:56

I don't know about other states but here in maryland we are lossing hunters at an alarming rate. I know several young friends of my kids that would have loved to try hunting, but because they have to take a hunter safty class before they can even a company me as a nonhunting obsever they never got the chance to even see if they would like it or not. I have tried to get them to take a course but, it not that easy to find the time for a young person working full time and going to school. the class my son and I attended took five nights .these young men are now in their 20s and more than likely will never take up the sport of hunting .it is ashame that we may some day lose the privilege to hunt simply because hunters will be out numbered and to small a minority to hold our own.this may not happen in my life time but i beleive that it will happen