I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

This time of year usually gets me thinking about this topic because the forum gets riddled with threads of the "dead deer walking" pictures and all the technology and gadgets that go along with them.

My question is where do you draw the line on what you consider "fair chase" hunting?

I don't see the logic in people crying about "fair chase" and preaching the ills of the WHA........or crossbows......or some other flavor of the week topic. To cry about those things.........and then come on here and post 100 pics from your game cam with a time stamp and a pile of corn in the picture and say how pumped you are to go out and use your $5,000 worth of electronics and equipment to sneak into the woods and smoke an arrow through him at 30-40 yards doing 320 fps at 80% letoff is so beyond rediculous it is amazing.

"Fair chase" is a myth.

What about the situation that I described above is "fair"?? The fact that there is no fence?? If there is a 10lb pile of cracked corn in the same spot of the same field corner for weeks on end then you don't need a fence.........the deer will not wander far........and even if they do they will surely come back to nibble day after day. This is evidenced by all the guys posting pics of deer that they have caught on their cameras multiple times.

Why do we continually harp on hunting having to be "fair chase".........and then go out and hypocritically hunt in an absolutely unfair manner??

I just don't understand why so many people get horrified by stories of game farms that turn on the feeders and wait for the deer to come out so they can shoot one. Isn't laying a full bag of corn in the same spot for weeks and then going hunting over it one day just another way of "turning on the feeders"??

We get what we deserve..............we are all in the uncomfortable position of being caught in the middle of the slippery slope. We jumped on voluntarily becasue we want SOME of the perks...........but get upset because we didn't read the fine print.


Game farms, the WHA, canned hunts, charging for antlers by the inch, 400 fps crossbows, 80% letoff, food plots, game cams, WSSM, Laser rangefinders and so on............are all in the same boat. Sure, they have different degrees of severity and significance but how can so many people be so adamant in favor of some of those things.........yet so adamantly against other parts??


The future is already here for those who haven't seen them yet. Video camera surveillance placed in the woods to observe the deer 24/7.


So, let me get this straight..........you can sit at home or at your job and have pics or video sent directly to your computer or cell phone from your spy cameras you set up at your surveillance compound (hunting land) showing you where, when, how many, and which deer are coming to your pre farmed food plot and grab your laser rangefinder, GPS, and high powered binoculars........throw on your 2000 gram Thinsulate water proof boots and state of the art camo.......take your 320 fps 80% letoff compound or your 400 fps crossbow or your high powered WSM rifle with equally high powered scope..........jump on your ATV and ride over to your pre set stand of choice (based on the time stamped deer pics) and wait. When the deer you have been spying on for 2 months 24 hrs a day makes his scheduled appearence anywhere from 40 to 300 yards away (which you used your laser to judge)..........you kill him.


That is "fair chase"???





"Fair chase" went Bye-Bye a LONG time ago fellas. I think we are only kidding ourselves and also doing the whole sport a disservice if this is continually used as a rallying cry. We need to focus on doing things simply because it is the right thing to do. Saying we want it a certain way because it is "fair" is laughable. Think about it........if hunting was really "fair" would anyone even think of bear hunting? That is about as silly as calling shark fishing "fair".


I always cringe when I hear another hunter preaching about "fair chase". Think how silly that must sound to the people who don't know anything about hunting other then seeing an army of guys in orange with big guns going out after what amounts to a giant rabbit with antlers.


I think it's time to realize that ship has sailed and focus our efforts on things still within our control.

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

I just bought a video that is pretty much trying to sell the Wildlife Eye.
Although I do have a fancy new bow and stuff. I have never once used a trail cam, although I have thought about it many times. I never really looked at it like that, just as a way for me to be able to scout the area without having to drive that far so often. I just have a work schedule that doesn't allow me to get out and scout like I want to.
I don't see this like putting out a pile of food for them to come in and eat at. You cannot control where the deer are going to be, or what they are going to do. Just because you have a trail cam set up to aid you in scouting.
You make some good points, but I don't see how a trail cam is that big of a deal. Sure it is in the woods all day everyday. But I don't know. I just think that is a helpful scouting tool.

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

Life aint fair. Why would you think hunting is any different?

People just use crutches to define why they do what they do. I don't care what they use but I reserve the right to jab people once in awhile about taking the easier way out and hunting with a gun. [8D]

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

Although I do have a compound bow and lazer rangefinder I can promise you that I hunt completely fair chase. I don't know what it is that has gotten you so cranked up but I hunt public land with a portable tree stand for deer that can come and go as they please. Now do I go out with a wolf hide wrapped around my head and a bow made from a tree limb that made myself, no. But I can promise you that the deer that I do kill just happen to walk by the wrong tree at the right time.

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

Wake up this morning and decide you felt like stirring the pot, Atlas?

To say that the days of fair chase are gone is laughable.

Granted, the methods we use to kill the animals we hunt have evolved over the centuries, it isn't as if the deer we take each fall are tied to a tree 20 yards from our stands.

While I don't agree with the baiting method, it isn't one that garauntees you an animal. Again, the animals aren't tied up and waiting to be shot. When it comes to fair chase and bating, you better rule out hunting over food plots, farm crops, acorn trees, apple trees, andanything else that deer might go to to feed onevery day.

Archery is still the most fair chase method of hunting available, and to say that fair chase is no longer a concept that should be preached and practiced is more of a disservice to the hunting community than you think.

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

Hunting with a gun, for me pretty much guarantees food on the table.

Feeders are the same way.

I only get to hunt a sad few days out of the year(this year a full week, more than I've hunted in one year since 1997), but my family depends on the meat I provide... therefore I make every "fair" attempt to provide that meat for my family.(I hunt for my wife and I, but also for my brother, his wife and 3 kids, and my sister and her husband and going on 4 kids). Yes we can afford beef fromKrogers, but that money comes from somewhere and effects something else formus down the line.

Does that mean that on the 4th day if I havn't killed a deer yet I wont pick up my .308? absolutely...

Does that mean I walk into a cage and kill an animal with ZERO chance to escape? Absolutely not.

Personally, I think that ethics are not a "slippery slope" but rather like you said a firm difference between right and wrong.

I dont understand you point, are you b!@#ing about the all the b!@#ing ? Or arguing in favor of High-fence? Or are you saying that all those things, that may or may not give an unskilled hunter a teensy little more of an edge on their quarry, are ruining hunting as you see it? Atlas, I really don't get it... I think you're just here to gripe and see how PO'd you can get people. I don't know you from Adam, but you really know how to use alot of words to say basically nothing.

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

Hunting deer over bait piles is illegal in PA. I just planted a small food plot, but there is nothing to force the deer to visit during daylight: they are free to feed at my food plot after dark and there is nothing I can do about it.

I don't have a game camera or laser range-finder or much of the other stuff you mentioned. I don't use carbon clothing because it is too expensive to buy for three years use.

My bow and aluminum arrows are rather slow, but I have no problem with a faster bow or a crossbow: I place a high priority on a quick, clean kill.

There is a world of difference between the rig I described above and a plot of ground with a fence to keep the deer in. My brother-in-law brought back pictures of a boar hunt at some hunting preserve: you could see the fence in the background. This is not hunting, it is just killing.

There are ethical questions about hunting and we should be asking them.

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

When you lumb every ingredient in your thread Atlas, "fair chase" certainly is a coined phrase at that point. I don't use all the above but I do certainly use several tactics. The deer I hunt can be miles and miles away regardless of the equipment (bow) I choose to take to the woods. They free wonder and could be miles away regardless that I have caught them on game camera from time to time. They could wonder and be miles away regardless that I have a food plot beside the other 1000 acres of corn and soybean and acorns. They could wonder and be miles away regardless the fact that I have a rangefinder around my neck more to make a clean harvest and not wound an animal, to reassure my yardage estimations.....

What is "fair chase"...hell, I don't even know, I'd imagine that is a coined phrase by someone in the industry and it caught on to disconnect fences from your hunting style....

If it's outside a fence it's "fair chase"...or is it...I guess that depends on the eye of the beholder....I'd imagine there is a traditionalist out there that makes thier own bow, string, arrows, feathers, broadheads, camo, scouts, etc...and only takes an animal from 10 yards and in...that person I'd bet Atlas would call your hunting unfair chase....the line in the sand is a blurry one...I can't even see it, sometimes I think I've found the line and I lose it...it's blurry.

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

Fair chase is pretty much spelled out in our game laws. I may not use all of the methods of fair chase because of my personal preferences, but I don't say anything or gripe about those that do. If it's legal, its fair. Nobody should be chastized for doing something that is legal.

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

Are you saying that hunting inside of 10 ft fences around relatively small farms and then paying 15, 000 dollars after the kill for a record book deer raised in a barn...is the same thing as using high tech bows or scopes for your rifles? This is ridiculous. Yea things have changed with time in hunting, but thats how everything is. To say that growing food plots (which help the overall health of the herd) is unfair...is just plain stupid. Wat does the fps on bows matter anyway? 320 fps is nothing to the 2000+ fps bullets that rifles have always shot. So yes, hunting with my laser range finder and fast new compound while wearing camo clothing, IS FAIR. These deer are far more smarter than"giant rabbits with antlers". So stop belittling this animal which is just as smart, if not smarter about humans, than it was back in the good old days of fair chase.
I'm only 15, and even I think you should grow up.

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

I can see where you make some valid points Atlas butI dont think itsalways the case. I hunt 1,100 acres of property, 500 acres this year is soy. You can put all the corn you want out but the deer that roam our area will walk right by a pile of corn to get to the beans, right now at least. Trying to guess where the deer will come out and feed close enough for a bow shot on any given day is like playing the lottery and hunting 600 acres of woods with a 1 mile long creek running through it makes hunting the woods even more challenging. I will almost always see deer come out to feed in soy but guessing which part of a mile long section of woods any particular night is not easy, its more of a guessing game, even with does. I can see one particular buck come out and feed at the same trail 3 nights in a row, then the next night hes comes out 3/4 of a mile away. I know in some cases you may have a point though but not here.

When the field is planted with corn I cant even see any deer, the little boogers stay in there to bed, eat, take rufuge etc ... early season hunting is tough, very tough with standing corn up where I hunt at least. The only fair chasepaterning I can do is get in a stand in the woods and hope something comes close enough for bow range, or, come out of the woods close enough for me to get a shot at the stand I chose for that day. My best guess is 90% luck, 5% paterning/scouting and 5% skill for me. No corn or any type of baiting helps me except in Dec/Jan, maybe.

And after the first early season blackpowder gun shot, unless its the rut, you wont see deer moving much in daylight. Here is my proof,before opening day of blackpowder I was getting about a 50/50 mix of pictures during the daylight and after dark. After early season opening day I was getting 600 pictures at a timeALL after sunset. I think its fair chase where I hunt.

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

Atlas, do these guys look like they may be interested in a nice bowl of cracked corn, or a mineral lick perhaps?? Do you think you could pick the exact trail they will come out tomorrow night on my 1 mile long stretch of field/woods, close enough for a shot at one you are willing to harvest, maybe, maybe not. Is planting soy or corn making itnot "fair chase" for bow hunting for me?

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

Same with feeders. Just because a feeder goes off doesnt mean the deer come to it. I've sat over a feeder all day and seen bupkis, but the next morning the corn is gone from under that feeder. The bigger mature deer are rarely if ever seen at the feeders. Near them yes, because we put the feeders in the areas known to have deer.

hey turtleshell, pass the bucket, bro, share the wealth! :D

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

I'm considering getting a helicopter and a self-aiming gyroscopic laser sightto pick them off from slightly higher ground! The onlypart that is difficult for me to swallow is that currently I figure venison costs me roughly $60/lb once you figure it all in but with a helicopter I'm going to have shoot several thousand deer to get to that cost per lb.

I figure if I can afford to get this idea off the ground (no pun intended) that it should be considered fair chase! lol.

Good Post Atlasman.

Tom

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

F.R.A.T.

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

I use just about every advanced trick in the modern day hunting book and I still don't have a wall full of monster bucks, or any bucks for that matter, as you would like to make people think. You're definitely painting with a rather wide brush there, Atlas.

I plant food plots, I use scouting cameras, I own and us a rangefinder, I shoot a fast bow, I have silent clothes, I watch the wind and try to control my scent, and I still have a hard time killing mature deer. Just because you do all of the above mentioned things doesn't mean its easy to consistantly shoot mature animals. There are a lot more people who can't do it than can.

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

I agree with you Atlas but this debate is a moot point because everybodies definition of "fair chase" is probably a little different. The responses to this post is proof of this.

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

Mine are only 1200 grams but they are water proof.

I like to know the yardage so I don't wound my game and I tend to get turned around in the bush when its dark oh ya did I mention I have bad eyes so I like to be able to see farther distances with my binos.

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

My first thought was that this guy was an anti who had no realistic understanding of the challenge of deer hunting. Now that I think about it, he's just a bored hunting with nothing to do except stirr the pot. He doesn't have time to shoot his bow or plant his food plot or run to the lease to check his cameras I guess.

Outsmarting a wise old buck is difficult at best, no matter what tool you choose to 'help' you. When it boils down to the cold hard facts, it's just a one-on-one challenge, your setup against the senses of that big buck.

What percentage of hunters can honestly say that any of the methods mentioned(except baiting and high fence)have actually helped them outsmart the big bucks? Consistently?

I'm betting there are few!!!

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

I don't. That is why I think it's time to ditch the "fair chase" chant.

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

What about that sounds "fair" to you? (Keep in mind I have the same gear and more)


Same here. So I ask again...........what makes that "fair"? Because there is no fence?

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

Never a better (or funnier) statement said.

Atlas, you must be getting bored, you haven't gotten on and stirred the pot for quite some time. Now its all built up and ready to blow.

LOOK OUT!

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

first off, i havent read all of these replies and i'm not going to.

atlasman, unless you only hunt with equipment you make yourself, you're just as hypocritical as what you're complaining about.

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

Nope.............just the endless parade of trail cam photos brought the thought into my head.



Why? Read what I wrote and tell me what about that scenerio is "fair"



Agreed............and no one said they were. I just don't see how the label "fair chase" fits. Please explain.



Exactly my point..............you can't have it both ways ;)


I disagree...........archery is more difficult then a rifle (in some cases)........but "fair chase"??? Please explain what makes it "fair"

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

What would YOU consider fair chase? we run em down tackle em and snap thier necks?

You give a lot of guys out there every edge and gadget known and they still couldn't kill an old smart deer. Should we poke out one of the deer's eyes, or tie a 100# weight to its leg to "even" things up?

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

Heck, everyone has a couple gadgets to tinker with. Undoubtedly there are more than there used to be. But whoa, Atlas, take a breath. You sound like you're accusing the whole hunting community of having everything, using every devious method know to scoundrels to take that critter. I think you're just a little around the bend on this, but that's fine. You do it your way, we'll do it our way and remember...."It's suppose to be fun". Personnally, I don't have cameras, my bow shoots around 255, I do have a rangefinder, I don't bait, I don't have box blinds, towers, food plots, decoys or any of that stuff. I have a couple scent loc suits but haven't worn one in 3 years. In short, I'm just about like most people here. I go out, find a tree, climb up and see what happens. I still have to be still, lob the arrow etc. There's a vast difference from my hunting to that of the caged pets that have been specifically bred with a price tag attached before you even shoot the thing. No sir, that's not hunting and it's not Fair Chase. Don't get confused with your ranting over some new gadgets on the market that MOST of us don't use. Take a breath and read what you wrote. You ranked me and my fellow hunters with the likes of the WHA. I take offense to it and think you're just a little crotchetty today. What's wrong, lose your best flintorcamo loin clothor something?

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

Agreed...........THAT is what we need to focus our efforts on. Doing something because it is the RIGHT thing to do.........not under the illusion of fairness.

Try to tell someone that doesn't know hunting that it is "fair" when you go out toting that 308...........and imagine that they have seen a deer drive put on. What do you think they would say?



Not at all.............is that where you draw the line?? Inside a fence is not fair but outside is fair?..........I don't see it as that cut and dry. I would even go as far as saying there are hunts that take place every day INSIDE a fence that are more "fair" then some that take place OUTSIDE them.



I'm saying they are all shades of the same color.



Then you really missed the point.

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

I consider myself a fair chase hunter. I dont use bait such as corn, salt or mineral blocks. I dont shoot a bow that shoots 320 fps. I dont use cameras, or videos equipment. I dont hunt fenced animals. I agree it does get a little old hearing about how fast this bow is or which is better. Big deal on what kind of bow you shoot. Its all personal preference. Its like I better get this bow and try to keep up with the next person. Who cares. I shoot what I shoot, because I like what I shoot. I dont care what kind of camera this person has or doesnt have. I do enjoy looking at the pics of all the animals. Some just go over board.

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

Atlas, I realize that you're just stating your opinion on the subject and I respect that. I'm not going to flame you for it as we're all entitled to our own opinions.

As it stands, I'm not going to debate the issue with you. We're both too set in our ways for either of us to budge one way or the other. Nothing good will come from the debate, so there is no point in my taking it any further than my original post. We'll wind up going in circles and wasting bandwidth.

Suffice it to say that while I respect your opinion on the issue, I'm going to disagree and leave it at that.

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

Yup.


Me too.........I just don't preach them as "fair chase"




They could be...........but more times then not........they aren't. More and more threads pop up these days showing a buck killled followed by the game cam pics they got of him the month before.



Exactly.


I'm sure he would..............is he right?

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

And now for the ridiculous low tech method
Seems there was this fellow who wanted to kill a deer but was too busy to go out and hunt with minimal chances of productivity. So he came up with a plan. He set up a pile of corn in his barn at his summer place. Rigged to this pile was asomple trip wire that closed the door to the barn. At the same time a pre-adressed and stamped postcard was sent via a small trolley into the mail box at the street. The postman delivered the card to the fellow who now knew there was a deer waiting for him up north.
Lets lighten up and do our best to legally take deer,ethics beyond legality is a personal matter

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

P.S. And as far as the trail cam things go, I find that they would be useless in my hunting. I hunt mostly small plots that others wander in, hunt public lands etc. MOST of us do. I see the photos you're talking about too, but if you've been paying attention, most of those pretty pictured deer are never brought to the bag by the guy with the picture.Not to single him out, but more as an example of what I mean, look at old Buckmagnet. He's been posting pictures of gorgeous deer on his private land for 3 years. He's yet to put an arrow in one of them. However, I think now they've gotten so over populated on the place he can't miss this fall.[8D]

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

Nope.


Please don't tell me guys plant food plots to help the "health of the herd" [:'(] If that were true you would see guys planting them all over the place............instead of 20 yards in front of their treestands :eek:



Because it makes it WAY easier to hit where you aim.......MUCH less yardage estimating and one pin you are deadly out to 30 yards......maybe farther. Don't forget you can hold it all day at 80% letoff. That is why fps matter. Why do you think so much money is spent each year on bows and why they keep pushing the speed limits of the gear??

Do you REALLY think that muzzleloading is the same today with accuracy out to 250+ yards and big scopes as it was in the old smoke pole days?



And?



How's that?......what is "fair" about it??


Yea...........I started hunting when I was a young kid myself. Give it a few years kid and you will understand............I hope.

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

I like my chances with 2 months worth of time stamped photos on my desktop ;)


In many eyes yes............so does pretty much all the stuff I mentioned. That is why I don't get people clammering for "fairness" when all the things I listed are not uncommon in todays hunting toolbox.

I'm not trying to condemn anyone here.........or how they hunt. I use all kinds of gear that people would laugh right in my face if they heard the words "fair" come out of my mouth........that's why I see it as a pretty bad rallying cry.

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

I have little doubt that the day an affordable infared device to locate deer in the woods can be marketed it will fly off the shelves.

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

If it is so unfair - the way our average joe bowhunter does it, then where is your state record Atlas? I mean, if it isn't fair chase then it must be unfair chase right? So before you shoot any deer, you shout out -
"Hey Mr. Deer - I'm thinking about eating you... I'll give you to the count of 3... better start running!"

And more fps doesn't make it easier to hit your target, it just makes you miss a little faster. ONLY practice will make it easier to hit the target.

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

What does one have to do with the other?



The hardest part about shooting a mature animal is having them around to shoot. This has been proven time and time again.........pay enough money to get access to the finest lands and you will have more huge deer then you have wallspace for........it is also the backbone of the QDM movement. You don't Bill Jordan has all those huge deer because he is a great hunter do you?

I don't want to get off subject here............I really don't see what mature bucks have to do with the topic of "fair chase"

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

Do you really think the term "fair chase" fits at all?

RE: I think it's time to stop the "fair chase" charade
 

Gotta admit, atlasman... You're good for business! ;)I'll pick wits with you some other time; you've got some points I both agree and disagree with (or at least a contention or premise I disagree with...), but I honestly don't even feel like getting into it right now...

As I told Rob when we were conversing about the proliferation of WHA threads and their position, expounding upon your own position does make you understand it to the fullest and expose the flaws in your own logic... I've read your posts on here enough over the years that I believe that is your ultimate goal (for someone to understand their own position to the fullest), and for that I commend you. Then again, I've seen you be as stubborn as a Missouri mule and not yield one iota -- even when others made valid points... ;)