RE: Is the obsession to shoot big bucks corrupting bowhunting?
 

The unethical people are the ones that ruin things, not trophy hunters or an obsession.

RE: Is the obsession to shoot big bucks corrupting bowhunting?
 

Would you rather pay too see monster bucks harvested or some stunted ones?

RE: Is the obsession to shoot big bucks corrupting bowhunting?
 

High Fence and captive herds have corrupted hunting cause its completely unethical. If you have hunted in a high fence your not worth a crap to be called a hunter

RE: Is the obsession to shoot big bucks corrupting bowhunting?
 

Sorry, but that's nottrue at all. Subsistence hunting isentirely different. A subsistence hunter who passed on a fat, dry doe because he wanted to stoke his ego with a large rack wouldn't be welcomed back home. I'm not making the point just to argue, but to point out that I see some big cultural differences here. So the question really is whetherthe obsession to shoot big bucks is corrupting bowhunting as you know it.

When I first took up archery in 1970, there were very few archers where I lived and we were considered to be irresponsiblebecausewe were treatingthe serious business ofputting meat on the table into a sport. If it wasn't for our ability to buy a second tag during rifle season,I have no doubt that archery would have been outlawed. Even at that, there were strong objections - we were spooking the deer, we were wounding deer, etc. But since all tags were either sex back then, our success rate was pretty good even though we were all shooting recurves. So as long as we broughtextra meat off the mountain, we were tolerated.

As the populationand affluence grew, (affluence being a major factor in this issue),we started seeing non-locals showing up during the hunt, followed bycomparatively wealthy out-of-state hunters. That's when I was first introduced to the whole concept of trophy hunting. After all, affluent people can get meat anywhere.

Times have sure changed. But one thing is as true today as it ever was - the rack on the deer you shoot is as much a matter of luck as it is skill - sometimes more.

Archery was once abouttakingpride in one's hunting skills. For me, taking pride in the size of the antlers is a poor substitute and a bit of a fraud. But that's me, and after all, there's a lot of hunters who've never known anything but the value of antlers and so would have no clue what I'm talking about. That's a cultural difference.

RE: Is the obsession to shoot big bucks corrupting bowhunting?
 

Times have sure changed. But one thing is as true today as it ever was - the rack on the deer you shoot is as much a matter of luck as it is skill - sometimes more.

Archery was once abouttakingpride in one's hunting skills. For me, taking pride in the size of the antlers is a poor substitute and a bit of a fraud. But that's me, and after all, there's a lot of hunters who've never known anything but the value of antlers and so would have no clue what I'm talking about. That's a cultural difference.
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Your right in the fact that times have changed. I disagree on the fact that the rack is MORE a matter of luck than skill. Yes in some cases that can be true. Scouting and getting to know the habits of a trophy buck is a skill that evolves thru careful preparation and experience. As I said in an earlier responce; I hunt trophy horns for the simple fact that it generally increases my time in the woods. We have a long bow season and I would like to enjoy more time in the woods. Be it scouting or hunting. Limiting myself to a good set of horns gives me this time in the woods. Much more so than if I went out and shot the 1st buck I saw. I been there, done that and had several seasons that ended on the 1st day of the bow season.

I have family members that hunt and shoot whatever they want. I have no problem with this at all. Its a personal choice.

Corrupting our sport is no different than any other sport, be it fishing, baseball, etc. There are always those few that do the corrupting in any sport and unfortunately they are always the ones that stand out.

Shhot what s leagl and what you want. I for one will continue to hunt the way I want whether a neighbor displays jealousy at my success or not.

I think jealousy has more to do with this than many think.

RE: Is the obsession to shoot big bucks corrupting bowhunting?
 

I dont know about you all but I find there is much more satisfaction in a clean kill where the animal had no idea what hit it than any official record book measure. Not dissing, everybody has a right to make thier own definition of 'trophy'

RE: Is the obsession to shoot big bucks corrupting bowhunting?
 

Well Im not a fan of fenced hunts norwould I pay to do it, but, there are circumstances that I also look at. I know several people that own businesses. They LOVE to hunt but dont have the convenience of putting in lots of hours of scout time or time sitting in stands waiting for that one lucky moment. I also know guys that have families that require them to be home to take of their family leaving little tono field time. What can they do? Pay for a fenced hunt where they know they will get some meat and a rack while taking 4 or 5 days off? Pay for a fair chase hunt where they may get a chance at a nice buck or a doe because they are obsessed with hunting trophies? Whats right?? The fact that they are unable to get time to hunt the way we all preffer tohunt and scout,and then pay for ahunt make it corrupt, andthat it creates a business avenue for someone to fence and farm deer?

If someone is corrupt because they are obsessed then thats an individuals ethics like I mentioned in my first post.

RE: Is the obsession to shoot big bucks corrupting bowhunting?
 

When I harvest any deer I am more than satisfied, and dont really care what other people think of how big or how many points it has, I hunt for myself and nobody else. I hunt because I love it , not for glory or recognition from other people. But if other hunters do hunt only for trophies, that doesnt bother me either.

RE: Is the obsession to shoot big bucks corrupting bowhunting?
 

I'll chime in on the subject. As most of you know I'm not a big proponent of QDM. On the surface it looks good and those who truely practice it are doing a justice to the deer herds. HOWEVER, I believe that 90% of those who say they practice QDM are really practicing QAM and I think that mentality is indeed corrupting bowhuntig as we know it.

Too much emphasis is put on the size of the deers antlers plain andsimple. You need to look no further than this very sight. You will find post after post of people asking "Is this a shooter?" or "Would you shoot this buck?" Just the fact that those questions are even ASKED shows the weariness some people have for shooting what others may conceive an"inferior" buck.

Just like many other things in life, some people take things WAY too seriously.

RE: Is the obsession to shoot big bucks corrupting bowhunting?
 

Don't you know it. At least 50% or more has to do with it.[:-]

RE: Is the obsession to shoot big bucks corrupting bowhunting?
 

It's hard for me to answer this question because it paints with such a broad brush. Things need to be defined such as "trophy" and "corruption". I think there is an obsession for bigger and bigger racked bucks in the video industry and I do believe it is a strong motivator that has the potential to negatively impact that industry. But that is equaled or excelled by the allure of money in the industry as well. I'm not under the dillusion that there's BIG money in the video industry for most involved. Sure some people will be making a lot of money but those are mostly in positions other than in front of the camera or guys who got in earlier and used it as a marketing tool for other products. I'm not saying there aren't guys making a comfortable living but percentage wise I can think of a lot of other fields that would generate a lot more money for my efforts. Most of these guys are motivated by making a living and doing it while doing something they love. Keeping that is a strong motivator and can tempt many a pro to sacrifice his standards/ethics to maintain. The list of fallen Pros and wannabe's is long and infamous. The competition for more and bigger bucks is pushing those pros to produce or go away. I remember watching videos that boasted 8 kills on film. Now the intro video has more than that. I also remember that they would take does and small 8 pointers on film. Now even the kids shoot bigger than that.

This motivation for bigger bucks does have the potential to effect the psyche of the general population. It affects their perception of what is agood size buck and what is available for them without regard to what is reality where they live. Allusions to the porn industry is right on the money. We, as humans, are driven to have more than we have. It's hard to be satisfied with what we have at hand and strive for more. This can be a good and bad thing. The desire for more drives us to improve ourselves and what we have but can make it impossible to enjoy what we obtain if not moderated. Having monster bucks plastered on the wall can make you second guys what is a really nice buck for your area. I have been the victim of that myself and wondered at what I was thinking after I let the moment pass. Do I enjoy seeing big bucks on film? Yes, but I have to constantly remind myself that deer of that caliber are rare or non-existent where I live. So if the desire for a "Book" deer raises unrealistic expectations for the area you hunt then yes, it's a bad thing because you're setting yourself up for disappointment and failure. Just like any other area of our life we have to gaurd ourselves against greed, envy, and covetousness. Don't begrudge the other guy who hasan area to hunt that is packed with x" deer. If you want bigger deer and you can take some steps to improve the habitat you own or hunt than do so with a realistic idea of what that impact will be and what kind of outcome you can expect.

As far as the motivation to get a record deer or a "book" deer: the motivations are almost as varied as the number of hunters. Yes, some are just ego builders, and I pity those hunters. But I also pity the fool who has to have a certain car or house as a status symbol. They enslave themselves. But I also recognise that some hunters have had opportunities to shoot plenty of sub-book sized deer and for them the larger deer is an opportunity for a new challenge. Or the idea of picking out a specific buck, based on his antlers, and hunting only THAT buck is a thrill and challenge for them. More power to them. It's not that they are better (although it could very well be so) hunters than me or I haven't reached that level ofhunting maturity it may just be what makes them tick. Face it, all of us aren't totally motivated by the obsession of big book deer or we wouldn't be using the weapon of choice we do. We have handicapped our chances at a book deer to various degrees by being bowhunters for a host of different reasons. So we aren't completely lost. :D I also see the rise of wanting to shoot record deer as an indication of the larger herds of deer we have these days. How many have said that there was a time when seeing a deer was enough to brag about? I don't want to go back to those days. But with more people taking for granted the opportunity to kill a deer it's only natural that they would want the next hardest challenge of shooting a bigger deer, and then an even bigger deer, and maybe a book deer. Although I understand some will want to make the leap from their first deer to a Book deer in one jump. :D

As far as the validity of entries to "The Book" are concerned. Yes I believe there are more opportunities to kill big deer than there used to be. This is evidenced by the debates over whether to raise the standard for entry into these books. Is that a bad thing? I don't know. Depends on how you perceive the purpose of these books. Are they supposed to be hallowed halls of only the elite accomplishments? or mere markers of the level of deer we have taken? Personally, I don't care. If I shot a book sized deer I may enter it just for the novelty of having my name in the book or I may not, depending on how much it costs me to enter it. I don't need the validation of some other group to tell me it's a nice deer, nor is my ego and self esteem so fragile that it needs the boost of accredition.

Where I hunt I've had the blessing of liberal tag limits and large number of deer. I've taken plenty of small bucks and had opportunities at lots of "nice sized" bucks (which I've blown most of). Personally I won't shoot anything I wouldn't pay $400 to put on the wall. I regret shooting small bucks now because they don't thrill me anymore. They are too plentiful where I hunt and I feel like I'm wasteful shooting one. I'd rather shoot a doe for the meat and wait on the nicer buck. On my land I impose a 6 point rule because I know all my buddies have killed better and they don't NEED to kill a smaller buck. I'd rather take the chance it will get bigger. Just like a size limit on fish. I don't apologize for that and I'm not RAISING deer anymore than I'm RAISING citation fish when I let a small one go in the river. I plant food plots and fruit trees because I want to see more deer. Just like a crappie fisherman sinks christmas trees in his favorite fishing hole. I just want to improve my odds and sightings of deer. I enjoy seeing them in the off-season and it builds anticipation for the coming hunts.

As far as the "brown it's down" crowd. They do bug me because of the motivation of such hunters AROUND THIS AREA is that they are slob hunters who practice unsafe/unethical/unsportsmanlike/non-disgressional hunting habits (think fifty "hail mary" rifle volleys across public roads). But I understand in other areas where deer aren't sighted often the brown is down philosophy reflects a more practicle realism of opportunism. If you get a shot at a deer, any deer, you better take it. Different regions have different perceptions, which is why it's so hard to answer this question without writing a book like I did. LOL. I also understand not liking the motivation of a hunter who's ego is so tied to killing a buck, any buck, in an area where does and bucks are plentiful and showing some discrimination on selection of buck is not difficult. In an area where any buck is rare I can understand it more, but again, I'm glad I don't live there.

As far as big antlers in general I think that's historically been true and nothing new. Artists of old painted the bucks with nice antlers and not the small spikes. Larger antlers are a distinguishing mark and therefore more memorable and attractive. Look at the old art from the old hunting magazines. Not many spikes on those covers.

RE: Is the obsession to shoot big bucks corrupting bowhunting?
 

Wow, Talon....that was a great read. Thanks.

I STILL get REALLY irritated when I see someone post photos of their kill or even game cam photos......only to have someone post "I never shoot under 140" " or...."I hold out for a ______class deer". WHY people feel the need to quote numbers and classes.....I'll never know. (OK...I DO know.....but I won't say why.....) What if I said my wife was a model....and a complete knockout......and that YOU all should "hold-out" for a trophy like her, yourselves!!!???

Hunting, to me......is VERY personal. This quest for antlers (and only big, beautiful ones).....takes away from hunting, for me.

This is my personal opinion.....so it can't be wrong!

Jeff;)

RE: Is the obsession to shoot big bucks corrupting bowhunting?
 

A lot of that has to do with regionalism, or a strictly regional perspective. Oh, I know it's also motivated by pride but the person is also assuming an equivalence based on his local perspective. That smaller buck he's turning his nose up to may be a much harder deer to kill in that region than his 140" class buck in his region. I, for one can't relate to guys in the cornbelt passing all those 125" bucks and saying they'll try for them in a year or two. I'd LOVE to be able to relate, but can't. I know that's just the type of deer they have in that region. If I lived there I may be saying the same thing. For me numbers are just another descriptor. Kind of like saying "he was this big" (holding out hands).

RE: Is the obsession to shoot big bucks corrupting bowhunting?
 

Hunting in general is being corrupted by "Trophy Hunting". I believe that the trophy is in the hunter's eyes.

RE: Is the obsession to shoot big bucks corrupting bowhunting?
 

I also believe that Trophy or "Rack Hunting" has corrupted hunting in general. Soon this country will be just like Europe during the Dark Ages. Only Kings and Nobles will be able to hunt. It almost is now.
I look forward the chance to get out and enjoy what the Lord has put here for us. The hunt is my main thrill. The size or lack of a Rack has nothing to do with it.

RE: Is the obsession to shoot big bucks corrupting bowhunting?
 

Talon:

I hear ya.....but I ALSO saw someone post a photo the other dya of a new buck in his area......and someone came in (And I'll GUARANTEE you he had no idea where the original pster was from....) and posted that the deer would be a good one in a couple of years.

Now...if you're the original poster......has YOUR hunting season been corrupted?

Jeff

That deer may just be the one this guy's been waiting for ALL HIS LIFE!

RE: Is the obsession to shoot big bucks corrupting bowhunting?
 

Yeah, that's plain rude. Obviously the poster is excited about the buck, otherwise he wouldn't post it. Again the replier may not realize how good a buck that is on the posters area. There's a little one-upmanship in these kind of threads too.

RE: Is the obsession to shoot big bucks corrupting bowhunting?
 

I think that this is wrong. Book archery deer have a minimum of 125 inches. Book any other weapon deer have a minimum of 160 - 170 inches. (modern day or all time B& C). There are way more 125+ deer than 160+ deer around. Therfore by hunting with a bow you have increased your chances at a book deer. Not to mention there are more archery hunting days than gun hunting days in most places. This again increases your chances at a trophy. I think that by being a bowhunter you will increase your chances at a book buck. I for example hunt with two weapons, gun and bow. That really increases my chances. However, I have taken 7 book bucks with a bow and none with a gun! I believe that if you look at the two record books, P & Y and B& C, you'll see that many more book bucks are taken with archery gear than any other weapons.

RE: Is the obsession to shoot big bucks corrupting bowhunting?
 

Two great posts SBGobblers!

I will take it one step further and say it shouldn't matter WHERE the poster is located...if he/she is happy with their kill that should be ALL that matters. I truely feel the obsession to shoot big bucks has no doubt corrupted bow hunting. This could be said for any species butespecially for north American deer.

RE: Is the obsession to shoot big bucks corrupting bowhunting?
 

DAMN!!!!!!!!!!!!

Got in to late on this one[:@][:@]

But there will be another one before the season..or two or three...............

RE: Is the obsession to shoot big bucks corrupting bowhunting?
 

i agree completely

RE: Is the obsession to shoot big bucks corrupting bowhunting?
 

I skipped the posts beyond page 1. Honestly, I wouldn't know a 10 class from a 100 class from a 1000 class buck, and have absolutely no desire to recognize a difference. Ihunt because I love to hunt. Not for meat nor trophy, but for the passion I have of the hunt itself.

The P&Y scoring system was designed to demonstrate bowhunter proficiency amonst a nonhunting public, in order to legitimize bowhunting. When we begin toembrace empirecal "scores" in the highest or sole regard,then that is a problem.The scoring systemhas been convoluted into and an end, rather than a means. Passion for the hunt, has largely and tragically been replaced by a quest for ill-percieved, individualfame, using the ultimate in technological advancements, rather than to demonstrate theeffectiveness of simple archery equipment. When the thirst for individual self-promotion is blatantly and disgustingly evident, particularly to a non-hunting public, then yes, it does a disservice to bowhunting...the very opposite for which the scoring system was designed to achieve.