Common Sense Arrow Setup
10-07-2008, 11:21 AM
#11
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location:
Posts: 306
RE: Common Sense Arrow Setup
Well, well , well, isn't this interesting. You make balnket statements about my argument without addressing anyone of my arguing pointsdirectly. Are you an Obama supporter by any chance? You sure sound like one with yourlame rebutle.
I think it's strange that you admit you wouldn't engage an elk with an expandable but woulddo sofor a deer. Bone infrastructure on a very mature deer can be quite formitable.
You're wrong in your assumption, I've shot every style of brozdhead, every type manufacture of bow and every style of arrow. I still experiment from time to time and I extensively tested the Rage broadhead which is leaps and bouds abouve other expandables but it's still an inferior product as detailed in my earlier post in this thread. I've bow hunted in dozens of states and I would venture a guess that my experience and understanding of archery ballistics meets or exceeds your understanding.My guess based on your limited and niave statements would be that it exceeds yours by a large margin.
Here are the facts which you did not adress nor dispute.
1. Expandables are not as strong as a fixed head (comparing top quality models in both styles).
2.All expandables can be prone to failure in deployment under certain conditions (Every single kind ever manufactured, from your1974 erauntilOctober 2008.)
3. Carbon arrows do not have consistant arrow wall thickness and are prone to arrow flight variations, especially with fixed heads. We've allbought a dozen carbons and hadone ortwo out of the dozen thatdoes noty fly like the others, ever stop to wonder why this iseven though it's staight?
4. Fact, fixed head braodheads are statistically more lethal considering all variables than expandable broadheads.
Feel free todispute of of these facts, but please, use facts and not insultingblanket statements containing no substance whatsoever.
Most hunters have themselves wounded agame animaldue to non performance (I have)of an expandable or they know of someone who has. I'm not saying that they (expandables)don't ever work, they will work most of the time but why use them when you can get an arrow to fly withthe same wieght, an ACC and a low profilefixed broadhead for example. That's the basis of my whole argument so take a chill pill.
I think it's strange that you admit you wouldn't engage an elk with an expandable but woulddo sofor a deer. Bone infrastructure on a very mature deer can be quite formitable.
You're wrong in your assumption, I've shot every style of brozdhead, every type manufacture of bow and every style of arrow. I still experiment from time to time and I extensively tested the Rage broadhead which is leaps and bouds abouve other expandables but it's still an inferior product as detailed in my earlier post in this thread. I've bow hunted in dozens of states and I would venture a guess that my experience and understanding of archery ballistics meets or exceeds your understanding.My guess based on your limited and niave statements would be that it exceeds yours by a large margin.
Here are the facts which you did not adress nor dispute.
1. Expandables are not as strong as a fixed head (comparing top quality models in both styles).
2.All expandables can be prone to failure in deployment under certain conditions (Every single kind ever manufactured, from your1974 erauntilOctober 2008.)
3. Carbon arrows do not have consistant arrow wall thickness and are prone to arrow flight variations, especially with fixed heads. We've allbought a dozen carbons and hadone ortwo out of the dozen thatdoes noty fly like the others, ever stop to wonder why this iseven though it's staight?
4. Fact, fixed head braodheads are statistically more lethal considering all variables than expandable broadheads.
Feel free todispute of of these facts, but please, use facts and not insultingblanket statements containing no substance whatsoever.
Most hunters have themselves wounded agame animaldue to non performance (I have)of an expandable or they know of someone who has. I'm not saying that they (expandables)don't ever work, they will work most of the time but why use them when you can get an arrow to fly withthe same wieght, an ACC and a low profilefixed broadhead for example. That's the basis of my whole argument so take a chill pill.
10-07-2008, 01:19 PM
#12
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: central Ky
Posts: 2,867
RE: Common Sense Arrow Setup
It's pretty funny you accuse me of being a obama fan. It set's the stage to consider the rest of your statements,such as ASSUMING my amount of experience(pretty desperate!
). I wonder how much experience you HONESTLY have. Enough of that,I'm not going to stoop to your level. I WAS going to admit I went a lil too far until I just read your post-not anymore! I'll begin with expandables. It's just common sense that ANYTHING with moving parts isn't going to be as strong as something without moving parts. I've seen several fixed heads fail as well as expandables. Where the common sense comes in is to recognize your limitations as well as the limitations of the equipment chosen and stay within them. As I said in my post,expandable heads have came a long way since they first came out. The cream of the crop in today's expandables function quite well,as well as fixed heads,in fact some of the best expandables are actually stronger than some fixed heads-as long as they're used within their capabilities. Here's where common sense comes in,you don't take a severely raking shot with expandable head. Just because youhad 1 bad experiencedon't mean "they should be outlawed". I never said expandables are as strong as fixed heads when comparing apples to apples,just that they work great,fly excellent,make awesome entry/exit holes,leave blood trails a blind man could follow(no offence to visually impaired)and have a well deserved place in modern bowhunting. I use both expandable AND fixed broadheads,depending on intended game animal,location,and style of equipment used. Expandable broadheads are NOT "prone" to failure as long as they are used within the uses they were designed for AND WITH COMMON SENSE. I'm sure you realize you have to match equipment with intended useage. Thereare to my knowledge at least 2 carbon arrow manufacturers that are made with consistant wall thickness due to method of manufacturing,there's more than 1 method of making carbon arrows. Yes,some of today's carbon arrows DO have consistant wall thickness. Like I stated before,try using a arrow shooting machine to test top quality carbon arrows side by side with aluminum arrows and you'll see just how wrong you are with your supposed "facts" (your opinion only). We all have opinions and they differ but that's no reason to claim your choice of equipment is the only correct choice-especially as a "newby"-otherwise you won't last long in this forum. Pay attention to other opinions besides mine and you MAY see the light. Have I addressed your "facts" to your satisfaction? The bottom line is a good enough hunter can successfully harvest game with just about anything,that's where personal preference comes in as to equipment choice-just don't brainwash yourself that your opinions are the only correct 1s.
). I wonder how much experience you HONESTLY have. Enough of that,I'm not going to stoop to your level. I WAS going to admit I went a lil too far until I just read your post-not anymore! I'll begin with expandables. It's just common sense that ANYTHING with moving parts isn't going to be as strong as something without moving parts. I've seen several fixed heads fail as well as expandables. Where the common sense comes in is to recognize your limitations as well as the limitations of the equipment chosen and stay within them. As I said in my post,expandable heads have came a long way since they first came out. The cream of the crop in today's expandables function quite well,as well as fixed heads,in fact some of the best expandables are actually stronger than some fixed heads-as long as they're used within their capabilities. Here's where common sense comes in,you don't take a severely raking shot with expandable head. Just because youhad 1 bad experiencedon't mean "they should be outlawed". I never said expandables are as strong as fixed heads when comparing apples to apples,just that they work great,fly excellent,make awesome entry/exit holes,leave blood trails a blind man could follow(no offence to visually impaired)and have a well deserved place in modern bowhunting. I use both expandable AND fixed broadheads,depending on intended game animal,location,and style of equipment used. Expandable broadheads are NOT "prone" to failure as long as they are used within the uses they were designed for AND WITH COMMON SENSE. I'm sure you realize you have to match equipment with intended useage. Thereare to my knowledge at least 2 carbon arrow manufacturers that are made with consistant wall thickness due to method of manufacturing,there's more than 1 method of making carbon arrows. Yes,some of today's carbon arrows DO have consistant wall thickness. Like I stated before,try using a arrow shooting machine to test top quality carbon arrows side by side with aluminum arrows and you'll see just how wrong you are with your supposed "facts" (your opinion only). We all have opinions and they differ but that's no reason to claim your choice of equipment is the only correct choice-especially as a "newby"-otherwise you won't last long in this forum. Pay attention to other opinions besides mine and you MAY see the light. Have I addressed your "facts" to your satisfaction? The bottom line is a good enough hunter can successfully harvest game with just about anything,that's where personal preference comes in as to equipment choice-just don't brainwash yourself that your opinions are the only correct 1s.
10-07-2008, 04:27 PM
#13
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Henderson, KY
Posts: 1,760
RE: Common Sense Arrow Setup
Dopler, since you have shot all the bh styles, how do crimson talon fixed bladebh's perform? Just a ? not being a smart a** I have some layin around the house that ive never killed anything but time with and was wondering how they do.
10-09-2008, 04:37 PM
#15
Fork Horn
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Painesville, ohio
Posts: 486
RE: Common Sense Arrow Setup
I will say this,
I have never wounded a deer with a mechanical.
I watched a fixed blade head go through the shoulder of a deer and lost it. every broadhead out there has lost game. fact of life. I am willing to say just as many animals have been lost with fixed as mechs.
I am opposed to jackknife style mechanicals, they have the possibility of deflection on my fav quartering away shot.
I use rages, and have never had a problem with the blades popping open, granted I check and replace the o-rings with a thicker one.
As for the carbon arrow thing. I have shot both, and I will say that last year i was punching great groups at 60 yards with Montecs and Carbon maxima 250's never had a problem at any range.
I think that they have come an awful long way in the past 2 years even.
I have never wounded a deer with a mechanical.
I watched a fixed blade head go through the shoulder of a deer and lost it. every broadhead out there has lost game. fact of life. I am willing to say just as many animals have been lost with fixed as mechs.
I am opposed to jackknife style mechanicals, they have the possibility of deflection on my fav quartering away shot.
I use rages, and have never had a problem with the blades popping open, granted I check and replace the o-rings with a thicker one.
As for the carbon arrow thing. I have shot both, and I will say that last year i was punching great groups at 60 yards with Montecs and Carbon maxima 250's never had a problem at any range.
I think that they have come an awful long way in the past 2 years even.
10-10-2008, 04:39 PM
#16
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location:
Posts: 306
RE: Common Sense Arrow Setup
I have no problem agreeing to disagree Bear, it's just that you got really rude with your 1st post in opposition to mine and I responded in similair fashion. I think disagreements are a healthy part of forums if kept in a civil manner.
10-10-2008, 07:57 PM
#17
Fork Horn
Join Date: May 2006
Location:
Posts: 414
RE: Common Sense Arrow Setup
Dopler,
I would agree with you about expandables if you're talking about the old style, jacknife opening expandables. But with the new rear opening expandables I couldn't disagree with you more. In 27 years of bowhunting I've lost 3 deer, all using fixed. Since switching over to rear opening expandables, first Snypers and now Rage, I have never even had a tough blood trail to follow.
I believemechanical BH'sshould be put into 2 categories, jacknife over the top and rear-opening because there is a huge difference between the 2 IMO.
I would agree with you about expandables if you're talking about the old style, jacknife opening expandables. But with the new rear opening expandables I couldn't disagree with you more. In 27 years of bowhunting I've lost 3 deer, all using fixed. Since switching over to rear opening expandables, first Snypers and now Rage, I have never even had a tough blood trail to follow.
I believemechanical BH'sshould be put into 2 categories, jacknife over the top and rear-opening because there is a huge difference between the 2 IMO.
10-10-2008, 08:45 PM
#18
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 393
RE: Common Sense Arrow Setup
Broadhead performance log:
All 22 deer were shot at 22 yards or less and broadside. Double lung hits execpt the spine shot.
Mechanical heads:
Gold Tip Gladiator 100gr. 1 1/2''[/b]- 2 deer, pass thru shots, neither deer went over 40 yards. Awesome blood trails.
Mar-Den Mini Max 80 gr.3 blade 2'' cut- [/b]one deer, no pass through. Deer went down in 50 yards; blood trail from the entry hole was impressive, the entry hole was as big as an old silver dollar. Takes too much energy to open and too much cut for the 60# KE I had at the time.
Rocket Hammerhead 100 gr. 2''[/b]- One deer no pass through; arrow the hit opposite side shoulder; blade loss / bent. Deer fell in 50 yards. Too much cut for the 60# KE I had.
Rocket Wolverine 4 blade 78 gr. 1 1/4''[/b]- 2 deer, one spine shot. Head held together without blade loss. The other deer was a double lung pass through, recovered in less than 50 yards. No blood was obvious at hit site on the2nd deer. Also shot a bobcat, hit him way back, copious blood trail, recovered in 60 yards.
Rocket Steelhead 125 4 blade 1 1/4''[/b] - 3 deer, all pass thru shots. Two deer down in 60 yards or less (one about 40), one tough deer made it 125 yards (double lung hit). One turkey: down in 40 yards. This head is tough, and flies like a field point. 1 ¼’’ diameter doesn't leave as much blood as a larger mechanical head, but better than the fixed heads.
Rocket Miniblaster 75 gr. 1 3/4''[/b]- 5 deer, all pass thru shots. Recovery distances of 12, 25, 40, 45, and 60 yards. 1 turkey recovered in 10 yards. I like the head for the excellent blood trails and short recoveries. Blades may bend or break.
Rocket Sidewinder 100 gr. 1 1/2''[/b] - 2 deer, both pass thru shots. Recoveries of 40 and 50 yards, good blood trails. No issues with blade bending or loss. 2 turkeys, one was disemboweled and went only 3 yards.Good combination of toughness and cutting diameter.
Fixed heads:
Thunderhead 125 gr. 1 3/16''[/b] One deer, pass thru, 125 yard recovery, but this hit was high in the lungs, so I don't consider the distance valid. Head recovered intact.
Muzzy 100gr. 1 3/16''[/b] Three deer, all pass troughs, consistent performer, recoveries around 75 yards. Light blood trails compared to mechanicals; heads recovered intact.
Muzzy 125 gr. 4 blade:[/b] One deer, pass through. Blood trail was so weak I lost it and just started looking for the deer. Found deer about 75 yards away hit perfectly. Head recovered intact.
Slick Trick 125 gr. standard 1’’[/b]- One deer, pass through. 100 yard recovery. Good blood trail for the first 60 yards, spotty for the last 40 yards. Good arrow flight for a fixed head. [/b]
Conclusions: no issues with over the top / jacknife mechanicals; the blood trails have been better and recoveries shorter when using mechanicals.
All 22 deer were shot at 22 yards or less and broadside. Double lung hits execpt the spine shot.
Mechanical heads:
Gold Tip Gladiator 100gr. 1 1/2''[/b]- 2 deer, pass thru shots, neither deer went over 40 yards. Awesome blood trails.
Mar-Den Mini Max 80 gr.3 blade 2'' cut- [/b]one deer, no pass through. Deer went down in 50 yards; blood trail from the entry hole was impressive, the entry hole was as big as an old silver dollar. Takes too much energy to open and too much cut for the 60# KE I had at the time.
Rocket Hammerhead 100 gr. 2''[/b]- One deer no pass through; arrow the hit opposite side shoulder; blade loss / bent. Deer fell in 50 yards. Too much cut for the 60# KE I had.
Rocket Wolverine 4 blade 78 gr. 1 1/4''[/b]- 2 deer, one spine shot. Head held together without blade loss. The other deer was a double lung pass through, recovered in less than 50 yards. No blood was obvious at hit site on the2nd deer. Also shot a bobcat, hit him way back, copious blood trail, recovered in 60 yards.
Rocket Steelhead 125 4 blade 1 1/4''[/b] - 3 deer, all pass thru shots. Two deer down in 60 yards or less (one about 40), one tough deer made it 125 yards (double lung hit). One turkey: down in 40 yards. This head is tough, and flies like a field point. 1 ¼’’ diameter doesn't leave as much blood as a larger mechanical head, but better than the fixed heads.
Rocket Miniblaster 75 gr. 1 3/4''[/b]- 5 deer, all pass thru shots. Recovery distances of 12, 25, 40, 45, and 60 yards. 1 turkey recovered in 10 yards. I like the head for the excellent blood trails and short recoveries. Blades may bend or break.
Rocket Sidewinder 100 gr. 1 1/2''[/b] - 2 deer, both pass thru shots. Recoveries of 40 and 50 yards, good blood trails. No issues with blade bending or loss. 2 turkeys, one was disemboweled and went only 3 yards.Good combination of toughness and cutting diameter.
Fixed heads:
Thunderhead 125 gr. 1 3/16''[/b] One deer, pass thru, 125 yard recovery, but this hit was high in the lungs, so I don't consider the distance valid. Head recovered intact.
Muzzy 100gr. 1 3/16''[/b] Three deer, all pass troughs, consistent performer, recoveries around 75 yards. Light blood trails compared to mechanicals; heads recovered intact.
Muzzy 125 gr. 4 blade:[/b] One deer, pass through. Blood trail was so weak I lost it and just started looking for the deer. Found deer about 75 yards away hit perfectly. Head recovered intact.
Slick Trick 125 gr. standard 1’’[/b]- One deer, pass through. 100 yard recovery. Good blood trail for the first 60 yards, spotty for the last 40 yards. Good arrow flight for a fixed head. [/b]
Conclusions: no issues with over the top / jacknife mechanicals; the blood trails have been better and recoveries shorter when using mechanicals.
