Savage 10ML-II may have a big problem!!!
 

I just read a very interesting article on the Savage 10ML-II muzzleloader.
[ul][*] Why Did This Savage Model 10ML II Suffer A Catastrophic Failure?
[*] Savage Arms In Denial!
[/ul]
It all seems very legitimate and most of all a possible warning to those shooting the Savage 10ML-II . The Savage 10ML-II was reviewed very highly by Randy Wakemann in the many articles he has written on Chuck Hawks web site; Chuck Hawks (Guns and Shooting online)

I just purchased a T/C Encore but considered the Savage 10ML-II as my other choice. I will let you be the judge and jury here. Would also like to hear from Randy Wakemann on these accusations.

RE: Savage 10ML-II may have a big problem!!!
 

Although I will admit to playing around with some lower pressure smokeless loads in my Knight Disc rifle a few years back, I really don't see the point of the Savage ML. The performance of many of the new powders, as well as some of the pellets, is about the same as the smokeless loads - and doesn't subject the projectile to all the pressure related problems that the smokeless powder does. I think it all comes down to just being too lazy to clean the gun . . .

RE: Savage 10ML-II may have a big problem!!!
 

You'll forgive me if I take those claims with a ton of salt. If it came from anyone but Toby Bridges I would give it far more weight.

RE: Savage 10ML-II may have a big problem!!!
 

Wolfhound76,

Please forgive me, but I do not know anything about 'Toby Bridges' other than what he presented in these two articles. Obviously you know more about this person than you care to mention. I merely read the articles and was fascinated by his test results.

Are you saying this is not true? If so, could you possibly shed more light on the subject. This could be very confusing to those of us who appreciate a person that will take a stand and expose hidden dangers to the general public.

I try to read all I can about things that I feel important to me. This happened to be one of those things. Now I am confused as to what this is all about! I definitely don't care to dig up old bones, just want the real truth of it all!

RE: Savage 10ML-II may have a big problem!!!
 

Yea Wolf kinda hard to argue with that. Everything that comes out his mouth now is bull.

RE: Savage 10ML-II may have a big problem!!!
 

You want the truth?

Toby Bridges is a MORON! Thats for SURE the truth.

This info is VERY old info but if you are new too the subject let me tell you the "otherside" too the Toby Bridges boosheut.

True Toby shot them ALOT. In fact what he did NOT tell you is how many rounds the gun that blew up had put through it and what kind of loads he put through it. As for the number of rounds I have heard from as low as 2500 too as high as over 7000. Savage themselves have gone on record as stating 5000 rounds as being closer too the norm for a "life cycle" of one ML10II. But more importantly is the fact that Toby is now covering up the fact that he was experimenting with MANY powders and loads and even go so far as to "blend powders", that is mixing various burn rate powders within one charge just to see what happened. The gun that blew up had more than one type of powder in it! [:-] He actually was on record as saying he had toyed with, "A few grains of this, then a few grains topped with xyz followed by a few grains of ABC." He was actually "layering" powders in the gun. What kind of experiences did he expect?

The gun didn't fail as a result of being to weak to handle smokeless charges. In fact the guns are factory mandated to accept 3xs their normal charge. That being they will safely handle a triple load of recommended smokeless powder charges for at least one firing (hopefully by then the moron shooting the gun will realize the err of his ways!). Savage and Ball knew that the lower IQ'd in the general public could conceivably mistake putting 150grains of smokeless down the gun based on the theory that they might have done the same with 150grains of blackpowder with previous guns. The guns are tested in excess of 110k psi. Thats nearly twice the barrel pressures of a 300WBY! The guns are EXTREMELY strong by design. What caused Toby's problem was the type of charge he had as a result of being a mixed charge, caused in effect what became a pipe bomb! The powder ignited basically all at once and NO handheld barrel would've held such pressures.

The man is a MORON and has totally lost all credibility in the industry and now is crying and sobbing to any willing ear. Sadly he has found a willing audience on the net. Especially among the un-knowing!

Just like your mother always told you, "DONT believe everything you read"! ;)
RA

ps
Damnskippy I own a Savage ML10II and it spits 300SSTs with 45grns of N110 like no tomorrow. I wouldn't HAVE aother "smokeypole" if I had too!!! Toby is just jealous because of the praise Henry Ball has gotten as a result of his hardwork and "invention" of what became the Savage smokeless. Simple childish jealousy! [:'(]

RE: Savage 10ML-II may have a big problem!!!
 

So the guy said he fired 36,000 rounds out of these guns with nothing going wrong, customized some with nothing going wrong. Then he blows one up (without getting hurt) using "incomplete load data"?

I smell a fish and his email made public last year just proves it.

I love his "gas cutting" arguement anyone ever notice what an abused black powder breech plug looks like after 10 shots????

RE: Savage 10ML-II may have a big problem!!!
 

WOW.....I guess that put the last nail in the "Toby Bridges" coffin for me! I don't know if I should feel embarrassed or feel like I just received a good ol' butt chewing. Regardless I appreciate the clarification on that subject.

Sorry if I struck a nerve. And yes I am new to all of this. We all have to start sometime. Took me 54 years to get my first ML so I will be on the learning path for a while. Thanks for the info and forgive my stupidity. :eek:

RE: Savage 10ML-II may have a big problem!!!
 

Yeah,

It's funny how Bridges blew up his gun, yet suffered no physical injuries. It's also funny ho the gun was blown up in February or March, but despite his self-proclaimed concern for the welfare of other Savage shooters, didn't get around to publishing his "accident" until 6 months later. It's also funny how just before his gun exploded he was s***canned by Henry Ball (the guns designer) and put on notice by Savage because he not only failed to perform up to par and had a bad attitude, but he had also demanded a raise that Savage refused to give him for the above reasons. If you investigate this further, you'll also find that he thought he should have the one and only role in promoting the 10ML-II, and there was a major falling out with the Savage management because of his refusal to comply with Savage's requirement that he use and write about only Savage tested and proven loads. Shortly after they put him on notice, Savage followed Ball's suit and also s***canned Bridges. Shortly thereafter Bridges manages to do what he didn't do with with over 30,000 documented shots fired through 10ML-II's, and over 7000 fired in that gun alone, and blew one up. The above e-mail from Bridges to Henry Ball, made public by his son Bill Ball, is both an obvious attempt at blackmail and the nail in Bridges credibility. I can only speculate as to why Savage and the Ball's haven't sued the pants off of Bridges. I would guess they don't want to appear to be the big bad bully corporation vs. the concerned little guy, or they just don't feel he's worth the effort. I think Bridges thinks he's the one and only authority on muzzleloaders and that everyone will accept his position without question. Unfortunately, people in general, and Savage 10ML-II shooters in perticular, aren't nearly as stupid or gullible as Bridges thinks they are, nor is he as influential as his ego tells him he is.

Mike

RE: Savage 10ML-II may have a big problem!!!
 

Oh, and I do have a 10ML-II, and was very concerned when Bridges came out with his "revelation" about the 10ML-II, primarily because his work and that of Randy Wakeman were very influential in my decision to buy the gun. But being a former cop, and never one to take anything at fact value, I started digging, and I not only found that email, but I also found another forum where both Bill Ball and Randy Wakeman (an unrelated third party at that point) had posted a great deal of commentary discussing Bridges behavior up to and including the blow up. Also, from the mouth of Bridges himself, when he posted his "press release" on his website he admitted, inadvertantly or not, that he had repeatedly and regularly fired overcharges as large as 6 grains in that very gun, and had in fact just shot a 4 grain overcharge the shot immediately preceeding the one that supposedly blew up the gun. He also, as previously mentioned, experimented with both duplex and triplex loads (layering two or three powders before loading the bullet) which can be dangerously unpredictable and by mixing powders. These are all things that any handloader knows are grossly reckless and dangerous with potentially catastrophic results. But apparently Bridges thinks himself smarter that the ballisticians and engineers working for Savage and employing the best pressure measuring gear money can buy. This whole thing is nothing but sour grapes on Bridges part.

Oh, and I too regularly shoot 42.5 grains of N-110 out of my 10ML-II with 300gr SST's or XTP-Mag's. It's accurate, clean and simple. I have no concernes about the safety of the rifle whatsoever. My rifle has not, nor will it ever, shoot anything other than clean, safe smokeless powder. If one an safely handload CF cartridges, one can safely load and shoot a Savage. The only difference between metallic cartridge handloading and loading a Savage is the absence of a brass case.

Mike