Lemmings haha!!

Hello Tony,

CVA was sued out of business not all that long ago, due to the introduction of their "Apollo" model. There were so many personal injury suits appertaining to this model that they were forced into insolvency; that is a matter of the public record.

BPI (CVA / Winchester Muzzleloading / Beartooth) guns are not made in the "same" plant as Austin & Halleck barrels at all. So says CVA, so says Austin & Halleck. Who do you really think "BPI" is, anyway?

A proofing mark alone does not mean a gun is unsafe. All a proof mark means is that the barrel is certified to withstand the CIP stamping, in this case 10,000 PSI. It does mean that the House of Eibar states the barrel has been proofed to 10,000, and just like in any firearm proof loads should never be approached, much less exceeded.

Guns are not "assumed" safe prior to being sold, they must be proven safe. That is what "PROOF" is all about.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/unsafe_muzzleloaders.htm

Austin & Halleck has updated their proofs to fully twice that of Traditions and CVA (BPI) product. Further, Austin & Halleck does stateside testing in Provo, Utah, and nearby Browning Arms to augment the updated proofs.

As a machinist, you should be familiar with Lame's equation to determine tube thickness. There are only two primary values in gun barrel steel strength, yield and tensile. Dynamic yield is determined by adding the minimum yield and tensile values together, then dividing by two. Then, a 100% safety factor is added on top of the minimum wall thickness to determine minimum design wall.

The Austin & Halleck barrels have a ONE INCH octagonal section that runs half the length of the entire barrel. It is due to the tremendously thick wall that their guns can contain, and have been demonstrated to contain, pressures exceeding 29,000 PSI service loads.

The number of personal injury cases appertaining to CVA and Traditions guns is amazing, if not downright alarming. Of that, I am acutely aware.

Now, if Traditions or BPI / CVA can demonstrate to you or to any consumer that their guns have been tested and proven safe at the 25,000 PSI loads their manuals recommend, they would be saving an awful lot of court time. To date, they have not been able to show that they test beyond the proof level at all.

Thompson, Knight, Savage, Austin & Halleck all have clinical data to show that their guns are supremely safe at 20,000, 25,000, 30,000 PSI peak pressures-- and they have done so.

The multiple cases involving horrific injuries and loss of body parts that I am aware of right now are all CVA and Traditions branded product. Perhaps you think it coincidence?

Ok, so whats the statistics? .01%, .05%??

I shoot with dozens and dozens of ML shooters. I have yet for them to say they have witnessed a ML explosion.

I think the real problem here is people taking low-end guns, that are just that, and trying to make them shoot like more expensive guns. Everyone wants a little more "performance" out of their guns and at some point they create a pipebomb. I'm not saying that there can't be some design flaws out there. Take a look at the auto industry. I'm just saying common sense is the best advice. READ the owners manual and DON'T exceed ANY load in it. If you want a 200 yd. black powder gun, then buy one. But don't try to make that 100 yd. gun extend it's range. I believe that this is what is really happening to those guns that "blow up".

I forgot about the apollo model, well certainly a company like BPI wouldnt want to have another problem like that..... I'd imagine I mean its only common sense to correct the problem.

I dont know if you heard about but sako's light weight rifles had a few instances of their barrels failing, does that mean all of sakos rifles are unsafe?? I think not. The point im making every so often a company puts out a bad product but they fix the problem. Ok so CVA had issues with the Apollo does that mean all their rifles will have the same problems??

Hay Moderator chase this guy.
Randy W. please cease to attack people on this board. The BP board which I very much enjoy has always been totally non confrontational. All her have been the extremely friendly with all members helping each other. Other boards and some topic areas are a bit more dicey so please go there to beat your drum on BPI. Everyone has heard your sermon and it seems most are sick of it. Please go away.

I disagree, if anything at all others have been confrontational towards Wakeman. I've been shooting muzzleloaders for about fifteen years. I have only been computer oriented for about 18 months. Up until about a month ago I had no idea about issues with some guns and some gun companies. There are new people joining the board everyday so prudence dictates this information be available to them too. It's one of the nice things about the internet.
People must be interested in hearing about unsafe practices and products to generate 9 pages of comments/discussion. If you're not interested nobody is forcing you to click the mouse.

And now thanks to the internet, you are worried/concerned about something you never had a reason to be concerned about.

Well stated and I agree. Also Randy has not been the problem here but actually has taken the brunt of flack handed out. Some of Randy's reviews were first mentioned on this thread by members here and it was great that he came in here and posted himself to voice his opinion and share his experience and knowledge on the topic. I am almost your opposite. I been using computers over 20 yrs and muzzleloaders for only 2 but it is amazing what you can learn by researching a topic on the internet. I never new of the problems the CVA Appollo had until I started researching the topic of buying a new gun last year before that I had been shooting a friends black powder gun. Knowledge is power and the internet is a great way we can share information and experiences.

Hey bud listen up, you don't know me. So don't formulate opinions about what I am and what I'm not. I now know, thanks to the internet, that there are potential safety issues with certain products available to the public. I am AWARE... Which, I think, is the purpose of a message board. To educate, to understand, and to question aspects of this sport/hobby that we are all passionate about. I could give a rats ass about what information you consider pertinent to your safety and well being, but I don't think any body has the right to belittle or attempt to stifle someone who is making the information available to others so they can form their own opinions.
I look forward to your response....