Ok, reading between the lines here. What you really are saying is, dang it, I am mad, that there are more hunters in the woods in what used to be a low pressure season where me and my fellow traditionalist could have more woods to ourselves.

I understand your pain. I used to feel the way about traditionlist with ML as a serious bowhunter. Where the ML is a crutch that doesn't teach you the hunting skills to get close to your game and ML hunters should wait until the firearms season instead of scaring our realatively unspooked game. Where really some of ML seasons are impeding with our long and warm season of bowhunting.

But I just go with the flow, and break out a ML that week and hope you traditionlist making all that noise doesn't scare the crap out of the deer so we can get back to real hunting with a bow.

I bet someone is hold his knife or spear saying the same about us bowhunters. Sometimes you have to think a little outside the box my friend and remember with a gun, be it ML or centerfire, its very easy to kill game comparied to alot of hunting out there. And your idea of spirit definately isn't the same as everybodies.

And remember public woods is for everybody, you got to share em.

Oh, the debate goes on and on. Like I said in an earlier reply, "as long as I have freedom of choice". I am a traditonal bowhunter using either a recurve or longbow but I do own a compound and did not oppose them when they came out. A bow is a bow is a bow with one arrow going out. It is still up to the archer to hit where his arrow flies. When the primitive season for muzzleloaders started in Virginia, they had to be side locks, muzzleloading, and capable of firing one LEADED projectile. Then inlines came out and they got accepted but you still couldn't use scopes or anything but leaded projectiles. Then scopes got accepted as well as did the sabots and copper bullets. But, a muzzleloader is a muzzleloader is a muzzleloader with only one shot. No doubt an easier shot with scopes but still one shot for the shooter. The County I live in had allowed muzzleloaders for the early black powder season but only allowed shotguns for the general deer season. Last year, they enacted an game ordinance allowing muzzleloaders to be used during the general deer season as well. I bought my inline so I could scope it and use it during the general firearms season where I tend to have up to a hundred yard shots after the leaves have fallen. I have always personally felt the shotgun is a poor firearm for deer hunting and that more deer have been wounded and lost due to this weapon whether on its own merit or some nimrod trying to use it past its effective range. During the primitive season, I still use my old F.I.E. Kentucky, 1 in 68 twist, with my 133 grain patched roundballs. But again, that is my choice. I do not oppose my brother-in-law who will never use his sidelocks again and now will only use his Knight inline. Again, freedom of choice.

Just blowing off a little steam. And you are right, the woods are for everyone. But I think you misread the lines a bit, so I'll clarify my testy lines: We need more hunters, not fewer, and to that end inlines serve to get more involved. My contention is one easily ignored--these are clearly *modern* rifles whose only connection with the muzzleloading season is the fact that they load the bullet through the muzzle, and that is what the majority of the Game & Fish departments care about. Smokeless propellants, inline ignition systems, and high-powered scoped sights put these rifles into the modern category right there with bolt-action rifles. The inline is a modern rifle, and while the rifle's design might make it more appropriate for use in the *modern* or regular game season, we traditional muzzleloading hunters can welcome the company.

I agree with ya caionneach. Thier performance is really getting some attention. Here in MD for instance, they don't care much about the one shot, but the flattness. And they are reaching the point that they can travel very far with alot of energy.

Will it cause them to end ML or limit it in some way? Jury is out. I hope they (DNR) just limit it some. I doubt the number of Savages in the woods will cause that.

My county for instance is one of the few in MD you can use a rifle. it will only take one instance of going thru someones house or whatever to change that to a shotgun county.

I catch some friendly flak from a more traditional ML'er every now and then when I am shooting an Inline.
Last time this happened, I put the Inline away in a case, went to the next case and pulled out a percussion sidelock and asked "can we now be friends"?


Seriously though, there already was an idiot bill introduced here in Michigan to restrict inline ML hunting from the southern shotgun/BP zone to the rifle zone only.

I think as long as ML's effective performance range regardless of design stays where it's at then things legal-wise should remain mostly the same.

If effective ranges and designs venture out beyond 200 yards, then I would expect and largely appreciate some sort of regulation. The trend is more populous areas and longer range weaponry will become a liability in these areas.

My .02 on the off topic.

I am speaking for my self,I have been hunting over 50 yrs and I have taken game not just deer with a recurve,compound,sidelock,inline and savage but didn't know they took different skills to kill deer.about the only difference I know is you have to get a little closer using different weapons.I took a 11 point buck one year with a T/C sidelock with open sights a lot farther than I ever will with a savage (lucky shot).
I think as long as its legal in the state you are hunting use anything you like.
If you're using a tree stand and lets say a flintlock,how traditional is that. I never saw a pic of Daniel Boone sitting in one.
If you have all that skill and techniques that you learned just using a sidelock you shouldn't have a problem taking a little old deer.

Your kidding right? With a compound or recurve up in a tree stand. You have perform 3 times the steps including being close. With a gun, you see a deer, you point and fire. And have the luck of firing well out of site of movement with the deer. With a bow, you usually have to stand up, then unless you hold your bow the whole time, grab your bow and take it off your holder/hook, whatever. Then you have to knock it or with a release, knock that on. And finally pull back and aim with this critter being right up on you. At least three times the movement and IMO 3 to 4 times more difficult. Not to mention how critical your form needs to be. You can shoot left handed half drunk with a gun and still knock something down with a ML or rifle.

Didn't say I shot any with a bow out of a tree stand.Out of 35 taken with a bow only 6 have been taken out of a tree stand the rest was on the ground sitting or standing next to a tree.Don't hunt much out of a tree stand before but this past year have had too because of heart attack and by-pass surgery cannot get around like I used too.
Have seen guys sober that couldn't hit a deer at 20 yds with a rifle too.
I don't guess my point came out like it should have,was meaning the skills besides shooting,like sign,where they bed,what they are eating etc.Don't think you need any kind of weapon to teach someone these.Do you think these type of skills are different with different types of weapons?

If inlines bring more new hunters into the woods, then it can only be a good thing for EVERYONE because it ensures that our sport will live on for future generations.

Take bowhunting as an example. Before the compound bow was introduced and gained acceptance, there were relatively few, but admittedly very dedicated, traditional bowhunters in the woods. Now, with the current pressure from anti-hunting groups to ban bowhunting as unethical and cruel, do anyone honestly think that this tiny portion of the hunting community, without the huge ranks of compound-only bowhunters that exist today, would have been able to preserve their season? The honest answer is NO. If the states, at the behest of the bigoted traditionalists trying to hoard the season for their exclusive use, had outright banned the use of "modern, high-performance," compound bows, and these compound bows had waxed into obscurity, bowhunting would not exist today because their season would have been yanked right out from under them by the anti's looking to route any hunting season they think they can get away with.

We're going this same route with the anti-inline protectionists. They want "their" season returned for their exclusive use, and instead of seeing inline shooters as fellow hunters and preservers of the ML hunting heritage in a slightly updated form, they instead look down their noses at them, poo-poo their choice of weapon, and think of them unskilled bumbling slobs because they use a gun that shoots a little faster or handles a little better than their big-bore Brown Bess flinter. When the reality of it is that an inline, while "modern" in appearance (as, say, an K98 Mauser is also 'modern'), it still loads from the front one shot at a time and provides the hunter, unless very lucky, with one and ONLY one shot, whether the range is 20 or 200 yards.

So I will say that I am THANKFUL, as we all should be, that Tony Knight reignited the passion for muzzleloading among the masses with the reintroduction of the inline ML, not just because I enjoy and prefer the inline design, but also because I know that because of the inline, my daughter (if she so chooses) will be able to take her choice of a traditional Hawken flintlock, or "modern" inline into the woods when she's old enough and hunt deer despite the anti's best efforts at preventing her from having the right to do so.

Mike

problems with the modules sealing or wearing out from loading and unloading to transport i have module with less than ten shoots that are leaking savage will not stand behind updating the gun and many of the modules are mis machined from the get go gun has less than fifty im down to my last 3 modules out of a dozen i ordered when i got the gun any one have any input