45Hawken,
You are probably right, but there will always be morons like that. Hell, just take the cigarette smokers for instance, they have been told for years that the smoke will give them lung cancer, but they continue to smoke (sometimes in a car with children), then they turn around and sue the cigarette manufacturers. Go figure.

Bucknrut,
I know what you mean about hunting deer with a shotgun. I did it for years in my home state of OHIO. It is a challenge.

Lets clear up some misconceptions and myths about the Savage 10ML-II and get some correct info out. I have never shot a T/C Omega so I cannot and will not comment on it. I have, however, fired in the neighborhood of 25,000 rounds through custom built smokeless muzzleloaders and the Savage 10ML's and 10ML-II's.

The Savage 10ML-II, is currently the strongest, safest, most advanced, and most versatle muzzleloader on the market today. Not to mention that it is very user friendly. I can shoot ANY of the blackpowder substitutes, blackpowder. Of Course, it is also the only muzzleloader that can shoot smokeless powders. Now, that (smokeless powders) only will turn many people against the Savage 10ML-II. They firmly belief or rather opinion, that smokeless powder has no place in the world of muzzleloaders. That is fine with me if they that opinion, just don't opinions confused with facts. Fact is, smokeless powder is the original blackpowder substitute. Oh yeah, back in the late 1880's and early 1890's, blackpowder began to give way to the new smokeless powder. Pyrodex didnot come about until around the mid-1970's, Clean-shot until the early 1990's, and Triple 7 until 2003. Even today, smokeless powder is refered to as equivelent to old blackpowder drams in shotgun shells. There is really nothing equivelent between Pyrodex/T-7 and blackpowder, either chemically, composition, or volumetrically wise. You can't load grain for grain, as you have to back off 15% or so when using Pyrodex (even more when using T-7) as compared to blackpowder loads. The only thing they have in common is they all create a large clouds of smoke when fired.

Projectile wise the Savage can and will shoot, bore size conicles or saboted bullets. Some projectiles work better when used with Pyrodex or T-7, some work better with smokeless. Ignition is 209 primer, same as most in-line muzzleloaders sold today. One of the myths the surrounds the 10ML-II is, "a one or two grain overcharge could or will have devasting results". That is 150% pure Bravo Sierra. When shooting smokeless powder and saboted bullets, in the 10ML-II, if a charge is too hot by a grain or two, or even a double charge, upon ignition the gas and pressure will blow the base of the sabot, causing the gas to blow by the sabot, thus reducing the pressures. In other words the sabot if blown by a hot loads, acts as a pressure relief valve. What about conciles and smokeless powder? Savage doesn't recommend bore conicles and smokeless powders, even though I have gotten PowerBelts to give decent results as long as I kept the velocity to 1,600-1,800 FPS. I have not shot any Buffalo or Plains bullets or anything like that in a 10ML or 10ML-II, becasue I saw no need in it. But with Pyrodex, T-7, or Clean-shot, or something like that, that style for bullet should work just fine.


The advantages of shooting smokeless powder are many. Like after 1 shot, 2 shots, 50 shots, or even 100 shots, you can take the 10ML-II home and stick in the safe for a day, a week, a month, or even 6 months, without cleaning it. If you did this to a T/C Omega or any other muzzleloader, you would have one rusted up paperweight. The cost is also much cheaper per shot, on average a 10ML-II cost approximately $.40-$.50 per shot. A T/C Omega, Knight, CVA, etc., with Pyrodex or T-7 pellets could cost as much as $2.00 a shot. At the cost of $25 for a box of 100 pellets at Wally-World you could get as many as 50 shots out of it, but with 1 pound of IMR 4227 or AA 5744, I can get 150+ shots.

Don't be worried about the myth of "having to weigh each and every powder charge". Heck, I weigh about 5% of the loads that I shoot in the 10ML-II. The other 95% of the time I use a Lee Powder Dipper Set, and dip my powder charges. This is a VOLUMNETRIC way of weighing powder. In fact Savage inlcudes the 3 most popular dippers with the 10ML-II, I beleive they are the 2.8cc, 3.1cc, 3.4cc dippers. 45Hawken was right about 1 thing, and that is accuracy. If you want 1" or better groups, then weigh your powder charges, but if 1.25-1.5" groups are fine then use the dippers. The dipper work great either at the range, at the hunt camp, or in the field.

With smokeless the rifle is almost maintenace free. Much less maintenance than your centerfire rifle. By the time you could get a T/C Omega, Knight, or CVA taken aprt for cleaning, you would be through cleaning a 10ML-II. The 10ML-II is also the only muzzleloader with a truely sealed closed breech. You will get zero blow back with the 10ML-II.

1shot, are you the same guy who posted about the savage on the NAHC bb? If you are and I remember correctly you designed the original concept of the savageml. If I remember the original model10 used a "for lack of a better discription" fake bullet that held the primer and sealed the breech. Does the newer model use this? If so how long do they last befor needing replaced?

45 Hawken, the new model does not have the module like you are talking about. It has a screw in breech plug with a vent liner. I have purchased a new Savage muzzleloader and I am very pleased with it. At the range, the gun performs as well or better than the Omegas, Encores, and knights. The real performance advantage I believe is at long range shooting. I am able to sight in at 100 yards an inch high and hit 6 inches low at 200 yards. That is impressive for a muzzleloader. You cannot do that with Pyrodex. Also I have shot a few hundred rounds in this gun and have never had a misfire. My groups do seem to open up a bit if I do not weigh the powder. I believe that smokeless muzzleloading is the way all muzzleloaders will be in the future. The great thing about this gun is I dont have to clean it imediately after I shoot it. Also, I purchased my stainless/composite 10ml ll for $399. I looked at the Omega and Encore which cost more. I believe this is the only choice. Oh by the way, if you plan on purchasing this gun, do not purchase the one with the scope mouted on it from the factory, the scope is garbage. I have a friend of mine who purchase it and it never keeps its zero. This gun shoots well enough to have a Leupold or Nikon on it. And for all of you shotgun only state hunters, purchase this gun and you can keep your bird barrel on your shotgun all year.

Thanks 1Shot_1Kill and Gianni,

1Shot, I sent you an e-mail with some questions. Let me know if you got it when you get a chance.

Thanks again all,

Bn'R

45Hawken, That is me. The "fake bullet" of the orginal 10Ml, is called a percussion module, that carries the 209 primer and the tapered nose of it mates tightly to the taper inside the chamber in the breach plug. This created the gas tight seal. The newer 10ML-II, does not use the "percussion module", but has a 209 primer holder on the bolt face. Upon firing the 209 primer swells in the 209 primer chamber and creates a gas tight seal. This works extremely well. If I had my choice I would opt for the 10ML with the percussion modules, but Savage have not made any sicne 2001, and will not be making that model anymore. A percussion module, if fitted the way ot supposed to, should last approximately 300+ shots each.

Bucknrut17, I got it and sent youa response.

After reasing Mr. Wakeman's articles on the Savage 10ML-II on Chuck Hawk's website, I'll have to say he's made me a believer.

At first I was one of the sceptics who shook his head in disbelief when Savage announced the 10ML. My first thought was that the first thing some idiot would do was take his black powder measure and dump 100 grains by volume of N110 down the barrel and blow himself and anyone nearby straight to kingdom come. I guess maybe I was probably selling people short, but there is always someone. With black and subs it'd be really hard to accidently overcharge the gun to the point of catastrophic failure. Black powder just doesn't make that much pressure. But smokeless surely can.

But reading through Mr. Wakeman's article I was surprized to read that the 10ML-II is PROOFED to 129,000psi (yes that's 129 THOUSAND...no typo). 129,000psi is over twice the max pressure of most high intensity magnum centerfire cartridges. Basically, the 10ML is built like a the proverbial brick ****house. Reading that also made me think about the fact that I had no idea what pressure my Knight or T/C barrels are proofed to, and I don't even think my Traditions was proof rated at all.

I was also pleasantly surprised that Savage makes all the 10ML barrels to the same specs and tolerances of their well regarded centerfire barrels. I know for a fact that all three of my muzzleloaders have different diameter barrels, both at the lands and grooves...there's just no standardization to muzzleloaders. At least Savage is trying.

I also never thought about smokeless in terms of it being safer. It's also more economical. Most of the smokeless loads listed use less than 50grains of powder...most people shoot 100+ of black or equiv. Less powder also means less ejecta, meaning less stuff gets blown out the front, so the less the rifle trys to make you pay for making it earn its keep. Higher velocities partially cancel this out, but I still think it'd make a difference, especially if one doesn't load the thing screaming hot all the time.

And then there's cleanup...the most dreaded part of shooting a muzzleloader. But with smokeless there is little concern about having the barrel pitted out if you get home from the range late and don't want to stay up to clean it...or if you want to hunt on a fouled barrel for best accuracy. Speaking of fouling...there would be no more need to bring a bag full of patches to the range to spit patch the crud ring out of the bore every other shot so that one can get the next bullet seated properly.

I don't know about the rest of you...but I'm saving for a 10ML-II. Maybe shooting smokeless powder will reignite (pardon the pun) my passion for muzzleloading. I love to shoot the things, but I hate the pain cleaning them. The Savage would be as easy to clean as my 22-250 (which is clean before I leave the range, most of the time...in less than 5 minutes).

Mike

That's good stuff driftrider!

You've obviously read up on the 10ML II quite a bit. Thanks for the info. I don't know what you like specifically, but have you seen the 10MLBSS II (wood laminate w/ the stainless steel barrel)? A beautiful piece of art if I do say so myself. Of course it's a bit higher in price.


Happy Holidays
Bn'R

Since I've always been one to give credit where credit is due, you should give most of your thanks to Randy Wakeman. He's done quite a bit of testing with countless different muzzleloaders and holds the Savage in high regard. If you want to read up on the Savage 10ML try the following links (they are where I got most of my info from):

http://www.chuckhawks.com/instant_slamification.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_ML10.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_10MLII_accutrigger.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_ML_FAQ.htm

Mike

Went to the range Monday to recheck out my savage for a upcoming hog hunt and this is the 5-shot group I got @100 yds,had a 1.320 group ( 3-shot) 5in low at 200 yds.I am sure Toby and 1-shot have had tighter groups but this is the best I have done so far.