New CVA Optima V2 SS
12-30-2017, 10:37 AM
#2
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 12,745
My Accura shoots good with whatever I put down the bore. I've used real BP, Pyrodex RS, BH209 and Alliant Black MZ. I am really liking the results I'm getting from the Black MZ. It burns as clean as BH209, you don't need a special breech plug and you get higher velocities at lower pressures. And it works in percussion cap sidelocks as well.
But each ML is a beast unto itself and you need to play with it to find what it likes. If you're near a Sportsman's Warehouse grab yourself a bottle of Black MZ and try it. Or Walmart carries Pyrodex RS.
But each ML is a beast unto itself and you need to play with it to find what it likes. If you're near a Sportsman's Warehouse grab yourself a bottle of Black MZ and try it. Or Walmart carries Pyrodex RS.
12-30-2017, 11:06 AM
#3
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,605
I am really liking the results I'm getting from the Black MZ. It burns as clean as BH209, you don't need a special breech plug and you get higher velocities at lower pressures.
Higher velocity than what?...Pyrodex?....well that really isnt saying much. Swiss or Olde Eynsford will spank Pyrodex all day long too
Last edited by Gm54-120; 12-30-2017 at 11:32 AM.
12-30-2017, 12:35 PM
#4
Fork Horn
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 205
Information for a new muzzleloader shooter.
If you have not selected a muzzleloader yet CVA, Traditions & T/C have good models to choose from. If you were to select the Strikefire from Traditions there is a little more involved in cleaning it. But it is not bad. Though you will hear some Forum members saying Knight Rifles are good, I bought one. I prefer CVA, Traditions & T/C I feel they get more support.
The first thing to do is take your muzzleloader out of the box, if necessary use the instructions, to break your gun down, as far as you can.
Clean your gun using a good bore cleaner, if you bore is not coated with Bore Tek Bore Coat or anything similar, I would use a bronze brush, with Hoppe’s elite gun cleaner. Then use a good synthetic oil, regular gun oil will react causing more fouling when shooting the gun. They say if you use BH-209 powder you have to use modern cleaning chemicals to clean your gun.
I like to use Hoppe’s Elite Gun Cleaner and Slip 2000 gun lube, it is a CLP. https://www.slip2000.com/slip2000_gunlube.php I use it to clean on the range and at home. I have used these gun cleaning chemicals, to clean Pyrodex, Tripple 7 and Blackhorn 209 Powders. I called a Slip 2000 Rep and asked them if I had to use the Blackpowder lube they have for muzzleloaders or the Slip 2000 gun lube, which I had some. I was told I could use the Slip 2000 Gun lube and I have had great results. The Slip 2000 rep told me to lube the bore and rifle as instructed and the gun would be good for 1 year in storage, I like to re-lube every 6 months, just a personal preference. Finally related to cleaning a gun, I use Hoppe’s Elite and Slip 2000 for all of my guns. Modern and Muzzleloaders.
After using Hoppe’s Elite and Slip 2000 let the barrel set about 10 minutes, it gives the chemicals time to work. Run one or two dry patches between using the Hoppe’s Elite and the slip 2000. Then run one or two patches after lip 2000 has set in the barrel 10 minutes. Wipe down the exterior of the gun with Slip 2000, wait 10 minutes and then wipe your gun dry.
Now I will add a little about breech plugs. The manufactures recommend to use their breech plug grease. If you ever have to push a load out thru your breech, unless you use pellet powder, the powder will get all in the grease. It is nasty to clean up, and I don’t think it works as good as Teflon tape. I have never heard of anyone having a stuck breech plug, while using Teflon tape. On most guns you put 2 layers of the white Teflon tape on the breech plug. Seat that with your fingers and install it. On the T/C Encore Pro hunter you use 2 layers of the yellow Teflon tape. When you remove the tape after shooting your threads will be clean. I use a small stainless brush to remove the tape from the breech plug, start at the end that you finished installing the tape and brush in the opposite direction. After cleaning your threads in the barrel with Hoppe’s Elite, put a dry patch in the threads. Then put a patch of Slip 2000 and let it set 10 minutes. Then put a dry patch in the threads again. Between the slip 2000 and the Teflon tape your breech plug will always come out easily. To clean the breech plug, if using BH-209 soak it in Slip 2000 Carbon Killer, Any other powders you should use breech plug cleaners from CVA, Traditions or T/C. When you get you gun new, measure the breech plug flash hole with this.
Then periodically measure the flash hole thru the year. If it increases to 3.5 to 4 thousand over you might consider replacing it. Large flash holes will cause a good group to go south.
Now you are ready to go to the range.
If you choose to shoot Triple 7 or Pyrodex Pellets, when you purchase them, go home and put them in a baggie or an air tight container. They are hydroscopic powders and will absorb moisture from the air which degrades the powder over a short time. I have a brother in law who will not use pellets left over from the previous year, he buys new ones. I have been trying to get him to go to Blackhorn 209 powder. As a note if you Purchase a CVA muzzleloader and intend to shoot Powder, you will need to buy the Blackhorn breech plug, it is for shooting Powder propellants. The breech plug that comes with the CVA muzzleloaders is for shooting pellet powders.
One other note when shooting Pyrodex powder, it is probably the dirtiest most fouling powder out there. I have heard a lot of comments on forums about it and have shot Pyrodex RS and Pyrodex Select myself. You will need to clean between shots on the range, if you want consistent accuracy.
Also, if you shoot Tripple 7, it forms a crud ring in your barrel just above the powder charge as you shoot. If you do not clean between shots it will become difficult to push the bullet down all the way to seat the bullet on the powder.
Personally, I like Blackhorn 209, If you shoot blackhorn powder and you have a CVA, Traditions or T/C, it takes a 1/8” drill bit, to clean the flash channel (Area under the primmer) every 3 to 6 shots. To clean the carbon. Do not apply too much pressure as you will destroy the flash hole. CVA makes this for cleaning the flash hole. http://shop.cva.com/pc_product_detai...A9AC0103FC124E since CVA, Traditions & T/C all have 1/8” Flash Channels you can use this cleaner with all of them. You set it according to directions and don’t have to worry about how hard you push. It is best to set this tool up with a clean breech plug. If you don’t use the CVA tool, get a 1/8” drill bit and wrap the shank with gorilla tape until you can hole it firmly, electrician tape can come off rather easily. Carbon can be hard to cut out, especially if you forget to use the drill.
Again, if you want consistent accuracy you will have to clean between shots anyway, other wise you will be wasting time & money and will have a lot of aggravation, as your groups will not make sense. I heard someone asking about Blue MZ pellets, I have never used them.
The biggest choice you will have to make concerning Powders is do you shoot Pellets or Powder. Shooting pellets severely limit load development with a selected bullet. You only have so many options to use. Shooting Powder, you can shoot groups while varying your powder charge from about 90 grains to the Maximum your gun will shoot. Modern guns can generally go up to 150 grains of powder, check the specs for the gun you buy. Most generally the maximum loads will not prove to be accurate, in my experience. After selecting a bullet, a conical or sabot bullet, I like to start shooting at 100 yards, I mount & bore sight my own scope, I can always get on paper at 100 yards with any gun I set up. You might have to start at 25 or 50 yards.
If you select a powder propellant to sight in with, start with 90 grains, always load the gun with the exact same components and powder. Shoot at least a 3 shot group, note on paper or the target the bullet and weight, sabot, weight and type of powder and anything else you think is important eg. Cleaning or not between shots/Temperature/wind speed/range, etc. After your first group increase your powder charge 5 grains, with all other things kept the same. Do this until you have a good group at the range you are shooting. Then continue to add 5 grains to each 3 shot group thereafter, until your group starts to open up or you reach the maximum rated charge for your gun. Once you have developed your load, be sure to check it at the maximum range you will shoot it at. Normally I sight my guns in to zero at 150 yards, that will put my group 2.75 to 3 inches high at 100 yards. Then if I Wanted to, I would hold about 6” high at 200 yards.
I have CVA, Traditions, T/C Encore all of my guns shoot Barnes TMZ or TEZ 300grain bullets at 110 or 115 grains of Blackhorn 209 powder with W209 primers and OEM sabots that came with the bullet. I do have other bullets that I use and they again tend to use the same amount of powder. My guns seem to like that range, now whenever I try another bullet I’ll always start with the 110 grains.
http://rchs61.org/completecapture.htm go to this thread, I got it from a post that Ronlaughlin replied to. It is information you cannot find anywhere, Test was done with 2 different grains of powder loads to simulate close or long shots, to test bullet expansion.
I think it will be a valuable tool in selecting a bullet to hunt with. If you target practice only and don’t hunt you may not be concerned if it expands or not.
If you purchase a factory bullet that does not shoot good out of your gun, You can also vary the Sabot (to make a tighter or looser fit down the bore) or the primer. The 2 sources for primers I normally use are MMP: http://mmpsabots.com/ , Then there is the Harvester Muzzleloading.com: https://www.harvestermuzzleloading.c...ush-rib-sabots Harvester also has any number of bullets that many some people seem to like and swear by.
The thing about shooting a muzzleloader for consistency and accuracy it to do whatever you do the same all the time to shoot it and load it. If it is not working for you change the bullet or one of the other components. I have heard of a lot of people with new guns getting great groups, with recommended loads rather quickly. Unfortunately, that has not been my luck. When something doesn’t work get rid of it and change up. That is my secret to muzzleloading. If you want a 2” group at 100 yards that will kill dear all day long, if you want a 1” or 1 ½ inch group you are probably going to spend a lot more time on the range and spend a lot more money.
Also, after you get done shooting your muzzleloader, do not wait for the next day to clean it. There is nothing worse than leaving a muzzleloader set around dirty no matter how long. Keep your gun squeaky clean, regardless of the procedure you settle on and it will have every opportunity to last for many years, with accuracy.
That being said with Blackhorn 209 powder you can load and shoot one bullet after another, without cleaning, I have done it up to 20 shots. I have heard of people that they have shot 50 times without cleaning. The manufacturer of BH-209 says to clean the muzzleloader as soon as you can after shooting. I have read posts on Forums where they said from leaving their muzzleloader set after shooting BH-209 that their Barrel Bores did get rust on them. Like any firearm if you keep your guns squeaky clean you normally will not have problems. If you ever do seriously considering changing the gun cleaners or oil that you use.
If you have read this post and still have questions, search the Forum, if you can’t find what you are looking for, start your own thread with the question you want answered. I would think you would get some reply’s rather quickly. Also, these recommendations are my own, you may find other people that have different recommendations and/or procedures. Once you get into muzzleloading you also will develop your own cleaning, shooting, etc., procedures. The information put out here is my best guess as to what it will take to get you easily going.
Welcome to Muzzleloading.
If you have not selected a muzzleloader yet CVA, Traditions & T/C have good models to choose from. If you were to select the Strikefire from Traditions there is a little more involved in cleaning it. But it is not bad. Though you will hear some Forum members saying Knight Rifles are good, I bought one. I prefer CVA, Traditions & T/C I feel they get more support.
The first thing to do is take your muzzleloader out of the box, if necessary use the instructions, to break your gun down, as far as you can.
Clean your gun using a good bore cleaner, if you bore is not coated with Bore Tek Bore Coat or anything similar, I would use a bronze brush, with Hoppe’s elite gun cleaner. Then use a good synthetic oil, regular gun oil will react causing more fouling when shooting the gun. They say if you use BH-209 powder you have to use modern cleaning chemicals to clean your gun.
I like to use Hoppe’s Elite Gun Cleaner and Slip 2000 gun lube, it is a CLP. https://www.slip2000.com/slip2000_gunlube.php I use it to clean on the range and at home. I have used these gun cleaning chemicals, to clean Pyrodex, Tripple 7 and Blackhorn 209 Powders. I called a Slip 2000 Rep and asked them if I had to use the Blackpowder lube they have for muzzleloaders or the Slip 2000 gun lube, which I had some. I was told I could use the Slip 2000 Gun lube and I have had great results. The Slip 2000 rep told me to lube the bore and rifle as instructed and the gun would be good for 1 year in storage, I like to re-lube every 6 months, just a personal preference. Finally related to cleaning a gun, I use Hoppe’s Elite and Slip 2000 for all of my guns. Modern and Muzzleloaders.
After using Hoppe’s Elite and Slip 2000 let the barrel set about 10 minutes, it gives the chemicals time to work. Run one or two dry patches between using the Hoppe’s Elite and the slip 2000. Then run one or two patches after lip 2000 has set in the barrel 10 minutes. Wipe down the exterior of the gun with Slip 2000, wait 10 minutes and then wipe your gun dry.
Now I will add a little about breech plugs. The manufactures recommend to use their breech plug grease. If you ever have to push a load out thru your breech, unless you use pellet powder, the powder will get all in the grease. It is nasty to clean up, and I don’t think it works as good as Teflon tape. I have never heard of anyone having a stuck breech plug, while using Teflon tape. On most guns you put 2 layers of the white Teflon tape on the breech plug. Seat that with your fingers and install it. On the T/C Encore Pro hunter you use 2 layers of the yellow Teflon tape. When you remove the tape after shooting your threads will be clean. I use a small stainless brush to remove the tape from the breech plug, start at the end that you finished installing the tape and brush in the opposite direction. After cleaning your threads in the barrel with Hoppe’s Elite, put a dry patch in the threads. Then put a patch of Slip 2000 and let it set 10 minutes. Then put a dry patch in the threads again. Between the slip 2000 and the Teflon tape your breech plug will always come out easily. To clean the breech plug, if using BH-209 soak it in Slip 2000 Carbon Killer, Any other powders you should use breech plug cleaners from CVA, Traditions or T/C. When you get you gun new, measure the breech plug flash hole with this.
Then periodically measure the flash hole thru the year. If it increases to 3.5 to 4 thousand over you might consider replacing it. Large flash holes will cause a good group to go south.
Now you are ready to go to the range.
If you choose to shoot Triple 7 or Pyrodex Pellets, when you purchase them, go home and put them in a baggie or an air tight container. They are hydroscopic powders and will absorb moisture from the air which degrades the powder over a short time. I have a brother in law who will not use pellets left over from the previous year, he buys new ones. I have been trying to get him to go to Blackhorn 209 powder. As a note if you Purchase a CVA muzzleloader and intend to shoot Powder, you will need to buy the Blackhorn breech plug, it is for shooting Powder propellants. The breech plug that comes with the CVA muzzleloaders is for shooting pellet powders.
One other note when shooting Pyrodex powder, it is probably the dirtiest most fouling powder out there. I have heard a lot of comments on forums about it and have shot Pyrodex RS and Pyrodex Select myself. You will need to clean between shots on the range, if you want consistent accuracy.
Also, if you shoot Tripple 7, it forms a crud ring in your barrel just above the powder charge as you shoot. If you do not clean between shots it will become difficult to push the bullet down all the way to seat the bullet on the powder.
Personally, I like Blackhorn 209, If you shoot blackhorn powder and you have a CVA, Traditions or T/C, it takes a 1/8” drill bit, to clean the flash channel (Area under the primmer) every 3 to 6 shots. To clean the carbon. Do not apply too much pressure as you will destroy the flash hole. CVA makes this for cleaning the flash hole. http://shop.cva.com/pc_product_detai...A9AC0103FC124E since CVA, Traditions & T/C all have 1/8” Flash Channels you can use this cleaner with all of them. You set it according to directions and don’t have to worry about how hard you push. It is best to set this tool up with a clean breech plug. If you don’t use the CVA tool, get a 1/8” drill bit and wrap the shank with gorilla tape until you can hole it firmly, electrician tape can come off rather easily. Carbon can be hard to cut out, especially if you forget to use the drill.
Again, if you want consistent accuracy you will have to clean between shots anyway, other wise you will be wasting time & money and will have a lot of aggravation, as your groups will not make sense. I heard someone asking about Blue MZ pellets, I have never used them.
The biggest choice you will have to make concerning Powders is do you shoot Pellets or Powder. Shooting pellets severely limit load development with a selected bullet. You only have so many options to use. Shooting Powder, you can shoot groups while varying your powder charge from about 90 grains to the Maximum your gun will shoot. Modern guns can generally go up to 150 grains of powder, check the specs for the gun you buy. Most generally the maximum loads will not prove to be accurate, in my experience. After selecting a bullet, a conical or sabot bullet, I like to start shooting at 100 yards, I mount & bore sight my own scope, I can always get on paper at 100 yards with any gun I set up. You might have to start at 25 or 50 yards.
If you select a powder propellant to sight in with, start with 90 grains, always load the gun with the exact same components and powder. Shoot at least a 3 shot group, note on paper or the target the bullet and weight, sabot, weight and type of powder and anything else you think is important eg. Cleaning or not between shots/Temperature/wind speed/range, etc. After your first group increase your powder charge 5 grains, with all other things kept the same. Do this until you have a good group at the range you are shooting. Then continue to add 5 grains to each 3 shot group thereafter, until your group starts to open up or you reach the maximum rated charge for your gun. Once you have developed your load, be sure to check it at the maximum range you will shoot it at. Normally I sight my guns in to zero at 150 yards, that will put my group 2.75 to 3 inches high at 100 yards. Then if I Wanted to, I would hold about 6” high at 200 yards.
I have CVA, Traditions, T/C Encore all of my guns shoot Barnes TMZ or TEZ 300grain bullets at 110 or 115 grains of Blackhorn 209 powder with W209 primers and OEM sabots that came with the bullet. I do have other bullets that I use and they again tend to use the same amount of powder. My guns seem to like that range, now whenever I try another bullet I’ll always start with the 110 grains.
http://rchs61.org/completecapture.htm go to this thread, I got it from a post that Ronlaughlin replied to. It is information you cannot find anywhere, Test was done with 2 different grains of powder loads to simulate close or long shots, to test bullet expansion.
I think it will be a valuable tool in selecting a bullet to hunt with. If you target practice only and don’t hunt you may not be concerned if it expands or not.
If you purchase a factory bullet that does not shoot good out of your gun, You can also vary the Sabot (to make a tighter or looser fit down the bore) or the primer. The 2 sources for primers I normally use are MMP: http://mmpsabots.com/ , Then there is the Harvester Muzzleloading.com: https://www.harvestermuzzleloading.c...ush-rib-sabots Harvester also has any number of bullets that many some people seem to like and swear by.
The thing about shooting a muzzleloader for consistency and accuracy it to do whatever you do the same all the time to shoot it and load it. If it is not working for you change the bullet or one of the other components. I have heard of a lot of people with new guns getting great groups, with recommended loads rather quickly. Unfortunately, that has not been my luck. When something doesn’t work get rid of it and change up. That is my secret to muzzleloading. If you want a 2” group at 100 yards that will kill dear all day long, if you want a 1” or 1 ½ inch group you are probably going to spend a lot more time on the range and spend a lot more money.
Also, after you get done shooting your muzzleloader, do not wait for the next day to clean it. There is nothing worse than leaving a muzzleloader set around dirty no matter how long. Keep your gun squeaky clean, regardless of the procedure you settle on and it will have every opportunity to last for many years, with accuracy.
That being said with Blackhorn 209 powder you can load and shoot one bullet after another, without cleaning, I have done it up to 20 shots. I have heard of people that they have shot 50 times without cleaning. The manufacturer of BH-209 says to clean the muzzleloader as soon as you can after shooting. I have read posts on Forums where they said from leaving their muzzleloader set after shooting BH-209 that their Barrel Bores did get rust on them. Like any firearm if you keep your guns squeaky clean you normally will not have problems. If you ever do seriously considering changing the gun cleaners or oil that you use.
If you have read this post and still have questions, search the Forum, if you can’t find what you are looking for, start your own thread with the question you want answered. I would think you would get some reply’s rather quickly. Also, these recommendations are my own, you may find other people that have different recommendations and/or procedures. Once you get into muzzleloading you also will develop your own cleaning, shooting, etc., procedures. The information put out here is my best guess as to what it will take to get you easily going.
Welcome to Muzzleloading.
Last edited by d.winsor; 12-31-2017 at 10:48 AM.
12-30-2017, 01:28 PM
#6
Fork Horn
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 205
you are probably correct to a certain extent, I have earned my agenda the hard way and will have it to the day I die.
Also just trying to inform someone who might not be informed. They might appreciate it and might not. I clarified the post by saying read it, use what helps and forget the rest.
I don't think I have done any lasting damage. Besides I now see he bought a CVA, good choice, he will like it.
Also just trying to inform someone who might not be informed. They might appreciate it and might not. I clarified the post by saying read it, use what helps and forget the rest.
I don't think I have done any lasting damage. Besides I now see he bought a CVA, good choice, he will like it.
12-30-2017, 02:06 PM
#7
Fork Horn
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 381
I guess since the devil got banned one of his groupies decided to be the self proclaimed expert. It’s obvious retirement, the internet and ignorance are at work . He probably messed up his Knight with the 3/8 socket. No way it would screw the breechplug in all the way. Bolt wouldn’t close. Then the threads got messed up . Yep. Something bad always happens followed by poor customer service when a CVA shill buys a Knight
12-30-2017, 03:06 PM
#8
Fork Horn
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 205
I just got counseled for brand bashing, It appears to me you are people bashing for pleasure, making untrue statements to fit your post. There should be a classification for that to include counseling also. Just Saying
Also, instead of trying to hijack this thread you could probably start your own thread and go at it, if the administrators would allow it. Happy New Year
by the way, I don't know what it means, but I don't think I like being called a CVA shill! I also don't like being referred to as a groupie. I also do not like to be called ignorant! So you can call member names and get away with it? I think the first rule of the forum was to be nice. I don't think you are doing that.
Also, instead of trying to hijack this thread you could probably start your own thread and go at it, if the administrators would allow it. Happy New Year
by the way, I don't know what it means, but I don't think I like being called a CVA shill! I also don't like being referred to as a groupie. I also do not like to be called ignorant! So you can call member names and get away with it? I think the first rule of the forum was to be nice. I don't think you are doing that.
Last edited by d.winsor; 12-30-2017 at 04:19 PM.
12-30-2017, 07:18 PM
#9
Typical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 988
d.winsor, I am assuming you got called down for brand bashing because you have been bashing knight in now 4 different threads on this site alone. There are quite a few Knight Rifle owners here at HNI from what I have gathered and not a one of them seem to have had the experiences you "say" you have had. And to be 100% honest, when you bash a well known and respected quality rifle manufacturer here and in the same post try to pump up Traditions, well that kind of speaks for itself to anyone that knows a thing about current muzzleloader manufacturers. Honestly, Traditions and quality doesn't go in the same sentence. They are a cheap starter rifle that will "get the job done" for the most part but they are not even in the same galaxy as Thompson Center or Knight. That isn't brand bashing, just a very well known fact to most all of us smoke pole shooters.
12-30-2017, 08:08 PM
#10
Fork Horn
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 205
I think Jay doesn't stand a chance with this thread, except for what I and 2 other people have posted for him, it seems like many people here are defending knight now because they are knight owners. I would not wish my experiences on anyone, I am glad you are happy with knight. I have read many post since I have been back, where no one could get in touch with knight about their problems and knight would not call back. I guess well known and respected and a quality rifle manufacture, would be relative to ones experiences. It sounds to me like you are bashing a well know and trusted muzzleloader manufacture now, by personally naming a manufacturer and then proceed to degrade them. Sounds to me like your opinion and not necessarily a fact. I personally like Traditions for reasons I have stated and by your own words "that will get the job done", what more could you want. I also do not think they are a cheap starter rifle, they have been around a long time, and my experience with them has been stated in this forum already. Not everyone can afford a knight! There is a place for Traditions still in the muzzleloader world, regardless of what your opinions are. I hope I have not been construed as brand bashing again, as I have not personally called out knight, except to quote previous posts, that were allowed on this forum, which is not what I posted. Just honestly responding to your post. Of which I won't do again. I don't think you inferring I was lying was meant in a friendly manner, I think you were trying to belittle me, just my opinion. If you people want to wreck a thread, to put out what you want to say, about someone or a manufacturer, why don't you start your own thread, then everyone who thinks alike could get together and have a good time. I don't think there is any reason for all this. At least this thread is not a total loss for Jay. As an after thought let me get this right, you can brand bash and call it ok, because it is your opinion, and a "well known fact!!". I can't give my opinions of a brand, based on my real life experiences, as it would be brand bashing. Tell me you don't see the irony here. Have a happy new year.
Last edited by d.winsor; 12-31-2017 at 02:57 AM.
