I think Jay doesn't stand a chance with this thread, except for what I and 2 other people have posted for him, it seems like many people here are defending knight now because they are knight owners. I would not wish my experiences on anyone, I am glad you are happy with knight. I have read many post since I have been back, where no one could get in touch with knight about their problems and knight would not call back. I guess well known and respected and a quality rifle manufacture, would be relative to ones experiences. It sounds to me like you are bashing a well know and trusted muzzleloader manufacture now, by personally naming a manufacturer and then proceed to degrade them. Sounds to me like your opinion and not necessarily a fact. I personally like Traditions for reasons I have stated and by your own words "that will get the job done", what more could you want. I also do not think they are a cheap starter rifle, they have been around a long time, and my experience with them has been stated in this forum already. Not everyone can afford a knight! There is a place for Traditions still in the muzzleloader world, regardless of what your opinions are. I hope I have not been construed as brand bashing again, as I have not personally called out knight, except to quote previous posts, that were allowed on this forum, which is not what I posted. Just honestly responding to your post. Of which I won't do again. I don't think you inferring I was lying was meant in a friendly manner, I think you were trying to belittle me, just my opinion. If you people want to wreck a thread, to put out what you want to say, about someone or a manufacturer, why don't you start your own thread, then everyone who thinks alike could get together and have a good time. I don't think there is any reason for all this. At least this thread is not a total loss for Jay. As an after thought let me get this right, you can brand bash and call it ok, because it is your opinion, and a "well known fact!!". I can't give my opinions of a brand, based on my real life experiences, as it would be brand bashing. Tell me you don't see the irony here. Have a happy new year.