grain for deer and ??beear
 

Whats a good grain bullet for the above.

That's a real open question. I'm just going to assume you have an in line in .50 caliber because that's the norm. If that is the case then anything from 240 gr on up is fine. But you really have to see what shoots best out of your rifle. Most of my rifles like a 300 gr Hornady XTP in .44 cal (.429") and a Harvester green Crush Rib sabot.
But there are plenty of bullets out there. Find one your rifle shoots accurately.

I'd drop that grain recommendation down to 220 rather than 240 if shooting from a .50. Even 200 grain with proper bullet construction and a proper load can be a really good whitetail and bear dropper. I say this with the Lehigh and Bloodline bullets in mind. Having seen the results of a 220 grain Lehigh CF bullet at a little over 200 yards on a close to 300 pound buck, they proved themselves to be damn fine bullets.

I like the 338 Platinum Powerbelt in front of 100 to 110 grains of powder for a good all around load for just about any critter in North America.

300 xtp
 

What to like about the 300 grain XTP is it flies straight, is inexpensive, and kills good. What's not to like?








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It is a mystery to me why the speed of light is a constant relative to all observers.

It is a mystery to me why every where i look, i see someone talking on the phone. We didn't have a phone; Grandma, Aunt, and Uncle, all had party lines. When calls were made we talked short.

It is a mystery to me how CVA shills keep popping up out of the woodwork.









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The 300 XPT is my go to bullet for a .50.

Flint Head, I'm not going to get into a brand bashing pissing match with you over this, but to recommend a bullet that is known to fragment and have extremely poor penetration on heavy bone, is extremely poor advise. Especially when recommending a bullet that would be used on an animal that can kill you just as easily as breathing. When giving advise for a bullet from a single shot weapon, you better give them advise with their well being in mind. Power Belts, especially those 338 plats, are not recommended for dangerous game and are very well known to be used on thinner skinned game such as whitetail. Notice, he did say for whitetail and bear. I am assuming he means Black Bear but even then, they can be some mighty tough critters themselves. If you want to be on the CVA and powerbelt bandwagon, that is your right and choice. But please don't try to recommend a very poor penetrating bullet for any kind of bear hunting. Especially from a muzzleloader.

300g Powerbelt Platinum

This bullet seems to work good; didn't fragment too bad. Spendy?



















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It can come apart like most any Hornady pistol bullet shot in a ML.


Here are a couple examples

ronlaughlin, wasn't that a .45caliber bullet? 300gr in a .45 would have to have a lot of length. That would give it a pretty high sectional density. Not to mention, though they give an okay idea, just a water jug test really isn't that much of test for tough hide and heavy boned animals such as a black bear. Fair test for whitetail but people seem to be under the false impression that a whitetail bullet is going to perform just as well on a black bear. Black bear have near twice the bone density of whitetail and near 4 times the fur and hide thickness. At least the fully grown adults do anyway. Those 338 plats are just copper washed lead. Not a bullet I would put my life on when facing and animal that could turn and chew me up before I got reloaded. I myself want something that will bust through bone and hide and anchor that animal.

Sabotloader, I've only recovered a couple of XTP's over the years. Haven't really used them a whole lot either since I only own one smoker that will shoot a sabot. But the couple I have recovered held up nicely. No jacket separation and no blowing apart. But I didn't push them really hard either out of that renegade. 80-90gr Swiss FFG. 80gr with the 250gr and 90 with the 300gr. I know, seems backwards but that's the way that rifle likes it. The heavier 300 likes a little hotter load to tighten the group.

I would concur with your findings if you shoot them like a PB shouldn't have a problem.


These were shot with 100 grains of T7. And again it is an intermittent problem. It does not occur each time especially if you miss a big bone - but since I can not predict when they might come apart - I have passed on them and went with Gold Dots/Deep Curls at the time.


Gold Dots at the time Deep Curls today shot in the same medium as the Hornady's were

You make that sound like a bad thing. My experience killing animals with a muzzleloader has shown me the biggest problem with the bullets used, is they don't work i.e. they don't do anything, except make a hole. The only failures i have experienced is the bullets just punched small holes through lungs, and the animals ran for what seemed forever. Me, i welcome a bullet like the XTP, that will expand, and/or separate some. When a bullet does separate, the tissue of the animal is horribly damaged. This is a good thing. What is not to like?















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This isn't 'just' a water jug test. The carpet, and plywood cause all kind of problems for bullets, and many fail to work in these tests. The results of the bullets used on game, and tested, are very very similar. Bullets that worked good in this testing also worked good on game. Bullets that didn't work good on game, don't work good in these test.



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For me it is a non desired action.


It really depends on where the separation occurs and where you might find the bits of lead that come apart.


The copper is usually found between the skin and the bone and the lead broken apart some where else very little penetration. And then other times it will do it's job very well even with a complete exit.


But again as has been mention shot it like a pistol not a rifle bullet and it will work as promised.


Again for myself I prefer a bullet that I feel I can predict what it will do.

XTP Prediction
 

My prediction is the XTP will shoot right through a deer every time i pull the trigger, and my aim is true. The XTP will fly right through the deer, and in doing so, the bullet will get upset by the force exerted on it by the tissue of the animal. The force the tissue exerts reshaping the bullet, will cause life ending damage to the tissue, and the deer life will end.

The very worst thing that can happen to a hunter, is if the bullet can be refired, because the tissue didn't exert a force on it. A bullet that is reshaped the most, causes the most tissue damage, because it requires the most force, which comes from the tissue.

A non desired action is when the bullet is traveling slow enough, the tissue doesn't reshape the bullet.












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Good thing about this you can believe what you think!

ronlaughlin, that carpet and plywood doesn't even come close to the hide,thick fur, and heavy bone structure of a black bear. I would imagine it simulates whitetail quite well. Remember, the original poster specified both whitetail as well as bear and I am assuming he meant black bear. In my younger days when we still lived in Tennessee, I hunted black bear all over the smokey mountains and in both the Carolinas. Some in our family, not dad or me, loved bear meat and I loved hunting them. I can tell you with absolute certainty that a black bear is many times tougher than a whitetail. A big boar hit in the shoulder with anything other than a very strong bullet will not go down as easily as some seem to think. That heavy coat of fur has a cushioning effect and will absorb a lot of energy. Then you have some fairly massive shoulder hide and muscle and then you get to the bone. I've actually cut into a few boar bears that had somewhat of a shield not unlike that on a boar hog where they had been rubbing. I'm in now way saying they are bulletproof but anyone hunting them with a muzzleloader better damn well use a bullet they know will hold together and penetrate fully to anchor one. Anything else is just plain old foolery. I've foolishly taken a few with patched roundball using my harder cast bullets. Most I tucked in behind the shoulder and had excellent results. But there were a couple that I hit dead center shoulder and had a very upset bear to deal with.

Fellers these critters are invincible. Bears are not difficult to kill if you shoot them in the lungs. I have killed several bears in my lifetime. I used trad bows and compounds, muzzleloaders, pistols and rifles. The well placed shot is king. I would advise that if you have to hunt with a prb get a bigger gun. Otherwise, a bullet combo that shoots accurate and is capable of taking whitetail will work. I have killed a slew of hogs and I have never seen no armor. Yeah they got gristle but that ain't no armor and it's not grown as a protective measure against arrows or bullets. I don't shoot 338 plat PB's. Honestly they are too costly. I'm sure they would kill a bear but if you push them to hard you can get mixed results. Just my 2 cents, but why is it a penny for your thoughts?

Of course not. However, the tests are an indicator of bullet performance. If you look at the test results you will see that the 300g Deep Curl did not penetrate as deep as the 300g Power Belt, nor as deep as the 300g XTP. Opinions are opinions, data are real results. Data are data. Folk are certainly welcome to their opinion........

To me it seems one datum is worth more than a jillion opinions, but that is just my opinion. :D













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Well I for one would not hesitate to use a 300 gr XTP (either in .429" or .452") on a black bear. I've taken enough and at different angles to have to agree with Slowburn. Over the years I've come to the conclusion that whitetails are more tenacious at hanging on to life then a big old blackie. Especially on a solid lug shot. But again this is a forum and everyone has their own opinion.

Bump because its such a good read and all results are easier to search through.

Thanks again Ron.

The construction of the bullet along with the weight and a good velocity with all that.
I would recommend the 275 grain Bloodline [Lehigh] as the best all around bullet with a velocity of from 1900 FPS to what ever the max load in your gun with your powder will push it. Remembering accurate placement of the shot is the single most important thing of all.

i used to be skeptical or Ron's bullet tests. Now i'm an advocate. The carpet and plywood are a very good simulation of a boar hog covered with 1/2" of dried mud. That dried mud can cause a bullet to come apart right now.


i like all three of the 300 grain XTP bullets. The .430 300 grain XTP has killed a lot of hogs for me. If a really durable bullet is desired then go to the .452 300 grain XTP magnum bullet. Driven by 140 grains of 777 in my Encore, the bullet penetrates both shoulders of a 350 pound boar hog.

Do you personally have an experience with this bullet... because I do. They are big and tough even when shot with a magnum load. They will kill, very easily, any black bear walking.

If I were tackling a big brown bear, I would probably opt for the 405 Areotip Powerbelt.

The 338gr Platinum is a beast of a bullet. Deer & bear are not hard to kill folks.

Good grief, some like to make things hard! How ever did they hunt anything before the invention of the bullet they are using now?

I had given up recommending Speer DeepCurl bullets because they were so scarce. At least for now, that does not seem to be the case, Grafs has every one you could want and some of the other online sites have them pretty regularly of late. Knock on wood, but perhaps the drought is over.


They shoot almost identically to the Hornady XTPs, are only a few $$ more per box of 50 (or 100) and, IMO, are significantly superior in holding together. The 300gr in either hollow point or soft point should do the job on whitetails and black bears.


https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog...roductId/17309


https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog...roductId/17367

Come on Jon. Don't you know that today's deer and black bear have evolved and now have a kevlar type tissue between their hide and vitals. You most definitely need a premium bonded bullet traveling at hyper speeds to penetrate it!
Any thing less, or God forbid, a round ball is used it will just bounce off and you will never recover your animal and it will just walk away unharmed.

Flint Head, personal experience? No not with the Plats. Seen the results from them? Absolutely yes and I was about as far from impressed as one can be. Extremely poor penetration and it had blown apart on the shoulder of a deer. You call that bullet tough? It's copper washed lead. And not even a tough lead alloy. There is nothing tough about any powerbelt bullet.
Mountain Devil, have you ever taken an adult boar black bear? I've taken many over the years. They are a hell of a lot tougher than you seem to imagine they are. I'm not talking about the 2.5-3 year old average boar taken. I'm talking about 5 year old and above. With bowling ball heads and some serious mass about the shoulders. No they aren't bullet proof and I've taken quite a few with patched rb but you have to be extremely picky about your shot choice and stay off those massive shoulders with them.
If one is asking about a bullet choice for both whitetail deer and black bear, those of us who actually have experience with black bear hunting should be recommending good tough bullets for that just in case moment when the only shot a person has is a shoulder shot. You don't recommend a sub par bullet for an animal that can kill you.

Yes, along with my brother in law.

Shot a deer with 110gr JSG and the 338gr platinum. blew right through the shoulders and that deer dropped on the spot.

I shot a deer with a Ruger Blackhawk using a .22 short and it dropped on the spot. Doesn't mean it was the right bullet............

.22s are illegal to hunt with in the states I hunt.

I can use a spear here....somehow i dont think its as good as using bow or a crossbow with a good broadhead though. I can legally use a 22 Hornet or even a 17cal CF also...Oddly neither one seems like a good idea.

You mean like the premium priced plated PB Plats or sub 50cent 300gr Unicor soft points?
$1.67 each https://www.midwayusa.com/product/24...tip-pack-of-15

37 cents each plus the cost of a sabot https://www.midwayusa.com/product/55...oint-box-of-50

Too Funny

If the bullet doesn't work on Rons testing, it's sure not gonna work on game. And that doesn't matter if the animal is hard to kill or not.

Keep up the good work Ron!

29 cents per bullet. Scorpion PT Gold....

Got a link to that pricing? Carlos was around $20/50. Ive never seen the PT Golds for $14.50/50

last time i bought em was a couple years ago. Still shooting off that supply. Heck of a bullet for such a low price.

That is what i thought, not an actual price available to anyone. Ive never even seen larger bulk packs of Rainiers that cheap.

Its a shame they are not priced closer to a Rainier since that is who makes the Harvester bullets. You can get 100 50cal 335gr Rainier HPs for about $23. Hard to imagine the tip is worth roughly doubling the price.

That Speer 300gr JSP i posted is one heckuva a tough bullet. Maybe a bit too tough for deer but not bad at all for bear and its a bargain available to anyone.

They are even cheaper at Grafs and they normally have great pricing on sabots too
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog...roductId/17367

300gr DeepCurls
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog...roductId/17309

$6-$7 for 50 sabots
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog...productId/5480

GM I hope you know I was only being sarcastic when I posted this:
Quote:
You most definitely need a premium bonded bullet traveling at hyper speeds to penetrate it!