Obviously and you missed the entire point. A PB is premium priced but fails miserably compared to a true premium class bullet and it does not even compare well to a bullet that is a fraction of the cost.

The simple fact is NOBODY would ever load that kind of soft HP bullet in full power 50 Beowulf or 500S&W for hunting deer or bear. Why in the world some people seem to think it is ok in a ML is beyond me. Muzzle velocity would be extremely close to those two centerfires.

Exactly my point. Why pay a premium price for a sub par bullet? Why use a bullet that you have to load down or it will blow up on shoulder contact? Why use a bullet that, if you have a healthy load, you have to stay off the shoulder? Why advertise a bullet, that is commonly known to fail, for a dangerous game animal? This is my opinion only here but, why flat out lie and say a bullet is tough when it is well known to be just the opposite? There is no such thing as a tough copper washed lead bullet. It just isn't so. I've been making my own bullets for a lot of years. Just over 3 decades to be exact. The lead used in those is a soft alloy. If they were a copper washed harder cast, I would have some more faith in them. But they are pretty close to pure lead on the index. Fine for whitetail, probably fine for elk if you stay off the shoulder, but absolutely not a bullet I would bet my life of for an adult boar bear. If you want to advertise for CVA and powerbelts, more power to you. But lets be a little more thoughtful about recommendations on bullets that will be used for a dangerous game animal. And yes, black bears are very dangerous. They are fast, incredibly powerful, and quite vicious when cornered, injured, or provoked.

i'll be hunting them with a round ball. They been killin 'em for HUNDREDS of years with them so far.

Seems strange that an individual would think a 338 grain lead projectile couldn't reliably kill black bear, knowing that 230 grain round ball have been killing black bear for centuries. They say history education is lacking in our schools; perhaps some are ignorant of the facts. The facts are 170g, and 230g prb have been killing black bear successfully, as you write, for HUNDREDS of years. Wouldn't a 338 grain lead bullet do better than a lighter weight round ball?














___

When did I say a 338gr powerbelt ( assuming? ) wouldnt kill a black bear? The 338 platinum is a beast of a bullet I recall saying.

Yes Ronlaughlin, PRB's have been killing Black Bear for hundreds of years. And I'm sure hundreds of men using PRB's have suffered as well from not penetrating and anchoring that animal. Shot choice is limited when using a weak bullet. That's all I'm saying. And when you are shooting at an animal that can turn around and rip your throat out or crush your scull without much effort at all, then I myself like using a bullet that I know will penetrate well and crush bone. I'm not saying that the 338plat wouldn't kill a Bear. I'm saying I wouldn't trust my life on it's poor record for penetration. It's fairly simple logic that I just don't understand why some on here can't seem to understand. Soft lead, copper washed that can't even be honestly called a jacket, hollow point. Just were in that combination do you see a beast of a bullet? I see a failure waiting to happen myself.

You don't seem to recognize; the 338 platinum has an good reputation for penetration. You are so biased against cva, you cannot accept it is a good penetrating bullet. This particular bullet works better than some others.

Believe what you wish. If you want to peddle misinformation....fly at it.












---------

I'm not biased ronlaughlin. I just do my research and go by the thousands of reports. Even our resident CVA and powerbelt advertiser, MountainDevil54, has many posts about the need to load down the 338 platinum. I ran across one of his reports under his Frontier Muzzleloader ID that stated that exact thing. Stay off bone and load 90gr or less for close up shots because of over expansion and poor penetration. I'll try to pull the quote and put it up here. Not 100% sure how to do that but I'll give it a swing.

That was a direct quote from him while in the same article he was saying they were fantastic penetrating bullets. Just how can it be a fantastic performing bullet if it penetrates poorly, you have to stay off heavy bone, and you need to load it down for closer range shots? That doesn't add up to a fantastic performing bullet in my book. Or anyone else's with even a small amount of experience. That ads up to a sub par, not even close to a premium bullet. Now if you want to continue arguing about their poor performance, go right ahead. I'll take the word of the thousands that have had bad experiences with them as well as what I have seen for my damn self.

seems that some are trying to re-word to put my words in the wrong order.

The 338gr platinum is a BEAST. I'd have no problem using it on an elk, bear or even a moose if I had any to hunt.

If you think you need a streamlined armor piercing bullet pushed by 120+ grains of blackhorn209, by golly, you folks go right ahead!

?????????????











_________

I have a ton of info regarding powerbelts in general. The 338gr Platinum is one I have always had a high recommendation on.

Pushing them ( powerbelts ) with 80- 90gr or sometimes less, is recommended for the lighter weight powerbelts. Back in the day with folks were heavily on this forum and coming here to ask about them, I did a ton of testing with the most popular 245 and 295gr powerbelts.

I've shot the 245 and 295gr powerbelts with 150gr of pyrodex rs and have experienced very little expansion on a couple deer. These shots however were well over 120 yards.

In all the years of hunting, We've recovered 3 powerbelts from animals and that is it.

Each one of us choose what muzzleloader, powder, bullet, 209 primer or cap to shoot. We choose these things for a variety of reasons... availability (Wal-Mart) lol, recommendations, forums like this one, etc. I know when I bought my first Accura goose neck, I fell in love with everything about it. I also killed my first black powder deer with a CVA Hunterbolt and a Powerbelt bullet. I'm in no way advertising for CVA or Powerbelt bullets, It's just what works for me and It's what I trust... with good reason... I have put horns on the wall and venison in the freezer for many years using this combo. I would never lie to anyone about what I think works... It's a CVA goose neck Accura and a Powerbelt bullet of some variety for me... this year it will be the 270 grain Platinum. once again,,, I'll be sure and post my results this hunting season.

MountainDevil54, that quote was taken from one of your reports on the 338 platinum specifically. Not another powerbelt. The first part, you are stating that it is a tough bullet and stood up well in your torture tests, yet the very next paragraph, the one I posted, you tell folks to load it down and to stay off heavy bone. That just doesn't cut the mustard for me.

Every 338gr Platinum I've recovered was in perfect shape.

If you don't shoot them, that's your choice.

My 338 platinum with 110gr JSG was a great shooting load and dropped a buck where he stood and exited.

If folks want load info help, they come to me for it and I do my best to provide them to the best of my knowledge.

Just out of curiosity, exactly what's the total number of big game animals YOU have shot with the 338gr Platinum?

Not many, I have to change bullets often in order to test.

Boys lets get down to it! Get the hell over it already! Shoot what you shoot and leave everyone else alone. You people do this at least 5 times a year. We get that you don't like powerbelts. If you don't shoot them, you have no reason to bother folks that do. This forum is to dead to put up with this foolishness you boys bring up over and over again just to start irritating people. If you don't like them, don't shoot them. I've been using them off and on since 2002.

If you want to dress up in a $300 scentloc suite, wear your wee rubber boots, shoot your high powdered scope inline with streamlined bullets, go for it.

Here's what the OP asked. Plain and simple.


Without looking back over all the posts, recommendations were made. However when it comes to PB bullets, there will always be many negative responses. Very seasoned shooters and hunters avoid those bullets for the reasons others have mentioned. Matters not what web site you visit, you'll find the same responses.

See a pattern there?

This I will say, there are MANY very seasoned muzzleloader shooters and hunters responding, not just on this forum but all forums. Many of these shooters/hunters have harvested MANY big game animals and they understand bullets and bullet performances. That said and knowing it takes two to create an argument, if the seasoned hunters try to steer shooters away from it, don't argue the issue. Problem resolved.

visit bass pro, midway, cabelas and read the powerbelt reviews. Most of them are all positive.

I've actually USED them for more years than you have complained about them.

I know how they work, we've downed a lot of deer and elk with them since '02. I've shot other brands that I personally will not use again, but if I have to use a powerbelt for whatever reason, theres no doubt in the back of my head that I will come home with meat.

No bullet will make up for your crappy shooting.

So how about you answer to your flawed report. You yourself stated that one needs to stay off bone and to load it down because it is a lead conical and like all pure lead conicals it will expand to fast at higher speeds or on contact with heavy bone. Those were your words not mine. Now, just what is an adult black bears shoulder made of? Pretty damn heavy bone. Even the scapula on an adult male is pretty thick. Your experience with black bear must be with the little 160-200 pound little fellows. Mine is with the 400-500+ pound ones that can take your head off with a single swipe.
This argument got started by advising someone with little black bear hunting experience to use a proven poor penetrating bullet from a single shot muzzleloader. That borders on a serious safety issue in my book. I've had the audacity and pure stupidity to hunt them with round ball but even my round ball mixes come in to 8.5-9 BHN and they punch pretty well through bone. I certainly wouldn't recommend and inexperienced bear hunter to use them any more than I would recommend anyone to use any poor performing bullet. That is the main point. And any bullet that even the advertisers say you need to load down and stay off heavy bone is not a bullet I would recommend. It's just that simple.

Well I have nothing else to do tonight so...........

Which is it? You, or others you're claiming? In one statement you say "not many"????

Bulk retail store reviews give nothing. The majority of those providing reviews, are happy to hit an 8" paper plate at 50yds. However when you have seasoned hunters providing negative responses on every web site known, well there's your sign. Google "problems with PB bullets". There's more negative reviews than you'll be able to read in a month.

Yeah there are some "crappy" shooters out there. Some of them are just PP shots, while others shoot PP bullets.

You asked me how many animals I have taken down. I said not many.

Now lets factor in the next part where I said WE have downed a lot of deer and elk with them since 2002.

WE, my dad and brother and I.

Since 2002.

Powerbelts in general.

Its like explaining things to children! :D

Just trolling me as usual though. I get it ;)

WAUGH! We'll make you a mountain man sooner or later with yarns like that! :party0005:

:D

Please correct me if i am wrong...........The posters in this thread that are bashing powerbelt bullets are posters that are going by what they have 'read'. These powerbelt bashers have never actually shot an animal using the bullet, yet they are vehemently bashing it.

This type of poster has been witnessed here for years now. This exact same behavior is going on currently by the folks in the minority.

For clarification purposes...... i should write, i have never hunted with a powerbelt bullet, nor will i, however i do know they actually work, and am not afraid to admit the truth.

:D

















________

I've never used Powerbelts either. Not on the range or for hunting. But only because I refuse to pay over a dollar a bullet for what they are. If I were going to lay out that kind of money for bullets it would be for a Barnes.

That said, I believe the game killing performance of a (non-HP) Powerbelt and the game killing performance of a .50 or .54 round ball would be pretty much the same out to 75/80 yards. Beyond that, the PB likely has the advantage due to weight and BC.

If I'm hunting where I expect shots over 75 yards or so I'll use a full bore soft lead conical or a jacketed bullet in a sabot. However, I do love round balls in the right situation. My longest RB kill was a frontal chest shot with a .535 ball at 145 lb. buck at 82 yards. He ran about 40 yards, laid down and died. Still, I hesitated to take the shot at that distance.

hesitated on a deer at 82 yards? WAUGH! Pilgrim, you wouldnt make it out here in the rockies.

Lung shots fellows. Head shots if they are within 40 yards or so. I hate that though, its messy.

Incorrect again ronlaughlin. I haven't used them but the old man gave a few of them a shot and I have witnessed for myself the horrible penetration of several powerbelt weights and models including the 338plat. I have also seen the horrible reports online about them. The simple and inarguable fact is, they are a pure lead conical bullet that has an extremely light jacket if you can even call it a jacket. Bullet making isn't rocket science people. Pure lead doesn't hold up at speed when confronted with bone. Just why do you think the copper jacket was invented? It surely wasn't to make the damn bullet pretty. Electroplating copper onto lead doesn't do much of anything to increase the strength or better control the opening.
ronlaughlin, you will find I am very much like my old man. I don't speak from just what others have said. If I am in a subject, you can bet it will be from personal experience on things I have either been directly involved in or personally witnessed for the most part. I may pad my experience with research just to make sure my ducks are in a row but you can bet I will have personal knowledge.
MountainDevil54, you trying to say I haven't taken 10 black bears weighing in over 400 pounds? And another 11 over 300? My very first black bear was taken in the Smokies in 1979 and weighed in at 342 pounds. Taken with a .30-30 Marlin at approximately 70 yards. I was a crusty old age of 12. Even back then I didn't shoot the little ones. The old man damn near made me pass on that one. I would have probably kicked him in the shin and shot it anyway but it was a close call. My largest was 508 pounds taken in almost the same area in 1989 with a .30-06 at 110 yards. Never insult my integrity MountainDevil54.

Those deer where you are must be bullet proof! I bet I could come out there and drop them all day long with those no killing powerbelts.

Im not a huge bear hunter. I kind of put it in the same class as turkey hunting. Boring. I prefer deer and elk hunting. Better meat and more options.

Now thank you for bringing up the 30-30... The kind of game crippling... Or so I read.

What you mean................i haven't been incorrect ever in this thread.


:D










___

Yes, because it was a frontal shot. I have limitations and so do round balls.

You were incorrect and asked to be corrected when you stated I and others had no personal experience with powerbelts. And you were incorrect when you stated that the powerbelts were good penetrating bullets when it has been proven time and time again that they aren't. A good penetrating bullet doesn't have to be shied away from bone impact. That's just plain ridiculous to claim otherwise.
No MountainDevil54 the deer here aren't bullet proof. Nor are they anywhere else in the world I'd imagine. But we weren't talking deer now were we? We were talking black bear. I know you like to change the subject when you are getting proven wrong over and over and over again. But the simple fact is, black bear, especially when it comes to shoulder shots, are a damn site tougher than whitetails. So you say, stay off the shoulder. Sure, take away 45% of your target area because you want to use an ill performing bullet. Makes sense huh? Again, ridiculous.

im from colorado, a conical only state. I've bagged more game with POWERBELTS than you've witnessed in the field.

Why hit the shoulder? theres tons of good meat to ruin. Especially on an elk.

BTW: I'll be setting my dad up this year with 80gr BH209 and a 300gr Powerbelt PLATINUM :)

My brothers 54 and my 50 are all set and ready for round balls after this evening, so its just a waiting game now.

powerbelt















_____

that'll do.

I would consider using the 45cal 300gr Plat for deer (since i have some) if they would fit in my bores. Ed's 350gr bullet does fit and performs just as well though for a fraction of the price.

A 300gr 45cal bullet has a similar sectional density as a 375gr 50cal. I only shoot the 350gr hp bullet to around 1300-1400fps tops though to prevent leading the bore. It just happens to be the sweet spot for its construction too.

Personally i think its kind of a shame PB does not make a slightly heavier 50cal Plat that is tougher. The Rainier 335gr is dirt cheap and holds together rather well for its weight. The Speer 325gr does also but it is a tad more fragile. Both are plain nasty in my 54-120 or 50 Beowulf at around 1800fps.

The 350gr 50cal Federal bullet comes to mind when we include game that can eat you and its cheaper than a PB Plat.

Bagged more game with powerbelts than I've witnessed in the field? Now didn't you just say a couple of posts back that you haven't downed much game with them? Get your story straight son. And I elk hunt near every year and have for over 30 years. I whitetail hunt in 5 different states every year. So I highly doubt your statement. In fact, your statement is absurd in it's generality. The old man had us in the woods about as soon as we could walk. Just because you dress up in goofy hats and funny looking old shirts from the past doesn't make you some sort of expert boy.

Fellers I know these hot dog days of summer makes a feller a little grumpy but dang. Now I ain't got no dog in this fight but I think y'all got a little off topic. However, it's just my opinion after all. Lol....

My apologies Slowburn. It just gets my Irish up when a kid not only insults my integrity but then turns around and and contradicts himself time and time again. Figure out your story Mountaindevil54. You have either taken hundreds upon hundreds of game animals, which would need to be in the thousands to equal what I have seen in the field, or only a few with powerbelts. The bullet is either tough or you have to load it down and stay off bone for it to be worth a damn. You can't have it both ways. No matter how you dress up to look the part.

And ronlaughlin, no offence intended here, but when it comes to that water jug test vs. the results I have personally seen on game animals, I think I'll go with what I have personally witnessed on game animals. Those water jug tests can be and are quite useful to do a comparison test and give one a general idea on bullet performances. But real world on live game performance it is not sir. Angles, bone density, fur and hide density, just too many things to list that make it an inefficient test to prove on game performance.

These tests were not intended to "prove on game performance." However, interestingly they ended up doing just that. Every bullet that has been run through these tests went through the exact same parameters. That is why the tests were done the way they were done. All the parameters were controlled so all bullets saw the same. They tests were conducted so all bullets endured the same interaction.

The tests done the way they were, allow one to compare bullets in a repeatable, reliable way.

What is weird, is the tests agree with performance on live animals whenever the same bullets were observed. This agreement with killing was a surprise, albeit, a pleasant surprise.















_________

Platinum Powerbelt Beats Thor
 

One surprise learned by doing these tests is the 300 grain Platinum Powerbelt, ran right by the 300 grain Thor. The Powerbelt went through the carpet, plywood, and four jugs. The 300 grain Thor went through the carpet, plywood, and three jugs.

Me, i have learned from several examples, the performance of a bullet in these tests equates to the bullets performance on animals. However, in this case, which is surprising, one is left with doubt, and with seemingly unanswered questions.

:D


One thing is sure, the Platinum Powerbelt does have ablity to penetrate; does not blow up on the near side hide.













_______