good way buy friendship lol

If I owe you money, I totally forgot. Ill send that today and I don't even remember what I tested. Atleast let me know what I tested and ill get it out today. If its something private send me a PM. Ive forgotten to pay a couple people I hate that.

No, I truly believe he doesn't have much money to buy extra guns. Plus I sent him a gun one time and he sent it back. Pretty stand up guy when it comes to stuff like that but maybe im Nieve.

No, you're not nieve. I appreciated the gun you sent me, but I tried to buy it from you more than once, and you wouldn't sell it to me. I felt too funny to just keep it, so I sent it back. I actually liked that gun a lot, and I didn't want to give it back.

My memory is so bad I don't remember what it was. But I would do it again if I had something you needed and nobody would no on these forums. I don't need to buy friends, but I like to help anyone out who appreciates it like you.

But you still drive me crazy sometimes lol:s4:

As do you for me, but that's why it's so fun. :p

Let me also say having money for extra guns is out of the question. I have a hard enough time coming up with the money for just one gun. I don't have any at the moment.
__________________

I'll repeat it... I think the Accura MR in SS/black is probably the best rifle on the market for the money. I would now go beyond that and state that I would prefer it to anything TC or Knight has to offer.

I can't argue with that. I've had a few MR's, and they are solid good shooting guns. Very light too.

You sure are an insistent old goat. Just because it carries well whilst hunting, is accurate, is reliable, has a sweet trigger, comes with a sling? What did i leave out?


Oops, not you Muley.

I accept the old goat part. :p

Grouse's claim about being able to work accuracy magic on some of the TC barrels is also complete nonsense, in spite of his overly generous opinion of his own talents. I had such a barrel and there is no way on earth he could have developed a load using conicals that would have been satisfactory to anyone. It was as a washboard throughout the rifled section and QLA was badly misaligned. It was too much to ask that it keep groups inside a wash tub opening at 50 yards.

But Grouse states his "facts" as if he is THE ANSWER... even when he is dead wrong. He cites me as being a positive influence in his learning process. He obviously missed some of the more important lessons.

Thanks Ron. ;) Want to see my eye?

Wow! Me, i was just kidding; not realizing you really are an old goat.

Well Underclock, I don't have a reason in the world not to believe you. I also believe any manufacture can make a bad barrel. Ive been pretty fortunate to have accurate barrels with all manufactures including CVA. And even pre Bergara barrels.

I've owned at least 5 Encores, at least 4 Triumphs, and have shot two Omegas that I don't own with bore size bullets. And all shot pretty darn good at 100 yards with bore size bullets. So what you are saying is im just lucky I guess? Haha, I guess that's possible but unlikely.

I take this stuff a little more serious then most. I don't like to joke around or even play games until someone else eggs it on. But its Christmas time and I wanna be nice to someone.

You and Flounder33 are coming after me and making some comments that are really not even necessary at all. So im willing to order a new T/C Triumph and shoot bore size bullets out of it. If the Triumph doesn't shoot bore size bullets well out to 100 yards i'll give the muzzleloader to someone on this forum as a gift. But if it does shoot conicals well, you two pay for the ML and I own it. And then im still gonna give the gun away either way. If the Gun does shoot bore size bullets well, ill send the bullet I use and gun to sabotloader to do a test of his own to confirm what I say. All I need is Underclocks word he will pay and ill order one today.

:party0005:

If a neutral third party is needed in the selection process if it gets that far
I volunteer and am willing to help.
I will step out and not be eligible for anything. On that same token I will not be representing HNI either as I can't nor is it allowed.
It will be just my ethics.

Dave. JW

Ill gladly send it to you to verify. Sabotloaders always doing something for me anyway.:s4: And ill also include shipping money to ship it to a member on this forum when your done to keep. I Love Christmas time!!!

I know quite a few others whose opinions I respect have figured it was the qla that prevented many tcs from shooting conicals accurately. Others I respect like Lee have said they have not encountered that problem.
I never cut the qla off my tc guns to see if that would solve the problem but here is a thread by Ron that convinced me it was the off centered qla that caused the inaccuracy.
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/blac...t-casting.html
I know of others on another forum that have cut the end of the barrel off with the same result. From these results, second hand as they may be, I have deduced that an off center qla is what caused the problems. A qla that is not centered on the bore but is machined to be centered on the outside of the barrel.
I know doc white says that sabots will make up for barrels that are not completely up to his standards, making barrels that are not quite perfect still shoot well.
It is entirely possible that a barrel could have a bore that is centered and thus a qla that is centered and then it might shoot conicals with acceptable accuracy. Maybe TC has changed their manufacturing process in their new guns, I have no way of knowing, I only know about the rifles that I and others have owned. It is my opinion that with other barrel manufacturers you would have a sure thing at shooting conicals and with tc it is like playing Russian Roulette, a game I will not play.

I think the only way to solve this is to find a TC with an off center QLA, and see if an accurate load can be worked up.

If I wasn't confident in what im saying, or know any facts I wouldn't make the comments. And if I thought my answers and results could be all over the place like playing Russian Roulette. I would avoid the answer and not supply any information until I new the facts.

I would say find two or three. But they gotta be able to shoot 1" groups with a sabot at 100 yards first. Remember, the claim is shoot sabots excellent but Bore size bullets awfull because of the QLA.

One big giant FAIL is all I can say to your response.

That's the difference between you and me. But ok

txhunter58 is another quality member that will also verify the TC QLA problem and I dont think many of us on here would call him a liar like grouse is basically doing on this subject.

Well I was going to say it, grouse some of the stuff you say sure makes you sound arrogant

That said, maybe I am lucky but my tc X7 shoots conical s such as fpb,bull shops and no excuses very accurate .. Seems you got enough money to buy one,why not just do it rather then call out UC and flounder.

I've owned a bunch of them. Don't have money to waste on nothing. I know what they will do, don't need to prove anything to myself. But I'll happily stick to what I said, and if that's arrogance I'm ok with it. Everyone makes mistakes, nobodies perfect. I will gladly pay for mine if I'm wrong.

Have him get a hold of me with his T/C that shoots Moa with sabots, but shoots bore size bullets terrible. I'll gladly make it worth his while. And not sure why someone who can't achieve something would be called a liar.

You posted this once already. I never new you to be like this, but I don't really see you post much anymore. Glad you shoot what makes you happy. That's all I do as well.

txhunter's problem has been solved. He cut his QLA off. And you can see the reason and the need!

If you look at the pictures you will see why. I happens in the method that TC choose to cut their bores. The QLA hides the off-center bore.
His was not off that far but if you look closely you will be able to see it.

That aint the finished work I would hope?

Sabotloader,
Nice pics and good information. I'm sure that happens on some T/C barrels for whatever reason. I can also see where that would possibly create issues with lead conicals. Lead bullets deform very easy. Some people deform them loading them not knowing it and get horrible accuracy. If someone finds me a QLA miss lined that shoots Moa with sabots I'll show them I will shoot bore size bullets accurately. Your not going to deform thors, powerbelts, Lehighs, or the Parker bore size bullets I have for example.

It needs crowned by looking at the pic.

My impression is that we were talking about lead conical bullets, not: "thors, powerbelts, Lehighs, or the Parker bore size bullets I have for example." Your understanding may have been different.

I thought we were talking about all conicals?

Well I guess that's how misunderstandings happen. I more or less assumed lead conicals. Maybe its because they are what I shoot, maybe because they are the ones I and other shooters I know have had problems with in TC rifles with a misaligned qla.

I always think of lead conicals used more in sidelocks, and more modern bullets in inlines. We all think about it different though.

I would think a gun should shoot all conicals within reason. Meaning a proper length conical for the twist of the barrel.

I always thought of conical bullets as pointed or rounded full bore bullets such as buffalo bullets or maxi bullets made of lead. Sabots being a different class and smaller diameter than the bore which are not allowed in places like Colorado. I view the power belt as another form of conical and believe they are legal in Colorado.

Interesting point Muley. I know that one of TC's pat answers for why their rifles didn't shoot the conicals well was because their inlines had too fast a twist. This goes against what I have learned about shooting them. For example, I have had good accuracy shooting 50 caliber lead conicals in twists from 1 in 24, 1 in 28, and one in 32 inch twists. These bullets have a length that is anywhere from .900 up to 1.005

I think of the powerbelt as kind of unique because of the plastic skirt, the copper wash coat, and the fact that the bullet itself doesn't engrave the rifling when loading. Yes, it is legal in Colorado and I have heard they shoot acceptably in some of the TC rifles that won't shoot regular lead conicals well. I think this is due to the plastic skirt.

I look at that plastic skirt as functionally nothing more than a patch used as a wad with the exception of being semi attached to the bullet. They do fly well out of my 50 cal TC, load easily but at least IMO don't perform on game as well as a saboted Barnes which load really hard out of my 50 cal. My problem using them for hunting is the difficulty of reloading in the field if needed. If I foul a barrel then load for the hunt that 3rd load if necessary is hard.