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Originally Posted by Champlain Islander
(Post 4233596)
I look at that plastic skirt as functionally nothing more than a patch used as a wad with the exception of being semi attached to the bullet. They do fly well out of my 50 cal TC, load easily but at least IMO don't perform on game as well as a saboted Barnes which load really hard out of my 50 cal. My problem using them for hunting is the difficulty of reloading in the field if needed. If I foul a barrel then load for the hunt that 3rd load if necessary is hard.
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Haven't thought of that...interesting. That's the fun part about ML shooting. Improve one aspect and it impacts another. The ying and yang of it all. I wonder if there ever will be the "perfect fit" on any given gun. Probably so but at a cost of time and money. I am mainly a hunter not a shooter and I am not as dedicated or have the time to fine tune to the extent that many of the experts on this forum do. Fun to learn from your posts though.
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It's much easier to get a proper fit with a PRB, which is why it's my favorite load.
At my hunting range they work perfect. Simple pimple. |
CI, just a couple of additional thoughts. While my above statement is a nice option, hunt conditions definitely have an impact on application of the above. If the animal is down and requires a finisher, that's fine. If the animal takes the first shot and remains on it feet or is still able to move off, follow up shot distance becomes very important. In this case, the trajectory of the follow-up load must be known. Bullets of like SD don't always have similar flight characteristics. This is more critical with bullets of greater SD difference. If you hunt elk and whitetail w/your MZ, this is more important to consider. With whitetail, SD spread may not be as critical, but verify that trajectory is similar between bullet brands. It is a viable option, keeping in mind that first shot is most important.
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If someone is really concerned about a 2nd shot with a muzzleloader. They should use BH 209, and same bullet for both shots. Using different bullets adds too many problems.
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Yeah the follow up killing shot if necessary at close range wouldn't matter but a second shot if needed should be the same bullet/ load. I always used Pyrodex loose and pellets with both my 54 and 50. I never tried any other propellant and from what I understand the Pyrodex is one that leaves the most fouling. I just hate to switch since I have quite a bit of both forms. I understand the BH209 is cleaner. What are the pros and cons with respect to a comparison with Pyrodex.
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Originally Posted by Muley Hunter
(Post 4233608)
If someone is really concerned about a 2nd shot with a muzzleloader. They should use BH 209, and same bullet for both shots. Using different bullets adds too many problems.
One thing I can say about PB's is that loading them was easier. |
CI
BH is much more powerful than Pyrodex. Non corrosive, or very close to it. That's important if you hunt with a fouled bore. Doesn't absorb moisture. Very consistent accuracy. I'd say better than any other sub. No swabbing ever needed when shooting. Doesn't make breech plugs stick. On a CVA I run the BP bone dry. The only con is it's expensive. |
How much more is it and does it come with pellets? If more powerful does the amount change much from Pyrodex and how do you get a comparable load. I know many of the experienced guys like loose powder for consistency but a few of my hunting experiences with my 54 which I loaded with loose are laughable. Couple the excitement, cold hands and the sight picture of a shaking hunter standing in snow with a big black stain on the snow all around the gun is priceless. :biggrin:
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Originally Posted by Champlain Islander
(Post 4233611)
Yeah the follow up killing shot if necessary at close range wouldn't matter but a second shot if needed should be the same bullet/ load. I always used Pyrodex loose and pellets with both my 54 and 50. I never tried any other propellant and from what I understand the Pyrodex is one that leaves the most fouling. I just hate to switch since I have quite a bit of both forms. I understand the BH209 is cleaner. What are the pros and cons with respect to a comparison with Pyrodex.
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Originally Posted by Champlain Islander
(Post 4233618)
How much more is it and does it come with pellets? I know many of the experienced guys like loose powder for consistency but a few of my hunting experiences with my 54 which I loaded with loose are laughable. Couple the excitement, cold hands and the sight picture of a shaking hunter standing in snow with a big black stain on the snow all around the gun is priceless. :biggrin:
Cost around $34 for 10oz. Not quite as bad as it seems, because you can use less of it for similar fps of other powders. However, it still cost more than the rest. Personally, I feel it's overpriced, but no other powder has it's advantages. Another reason I like sidelocks. I have no temptation to use anything but real black powder. |
Originally Posted by Champlain Islander
(Post 4233618)
How much more is it and does it come with pellets? If more powerful does the amount change much from Pyrodex and how do you get a comparable load. I know many of the experienced guys like loose powder for consistency but a few of my hunting experiences with my 54 which I loaded with loose are laughable. Couple the excitement, cold hands and the sight picture of a shaking hunter standing in snow with a big black stain on the snow all around the gun is priceless. :biggrin:
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Maybe that's why he needs a 2nd shot?
Just a joke, so I don't get a warning. |
CI, BH 209 only comes in loose powder in 10 oz and 5lb. containers. The max. load by volume for bh is 120 gr. instead of 150 gr. bv for other subs. Pete summed up BH209 well.
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Hahahah bronco good one. The shaking hunter was an exaggeration but I have on occasion during my 50 yr some odd hunting career developed a serious case of the shakes. The 2014 bull elk at 35 yds with about 30 or so cows all around me really got me going. The hunting Gods smiled upon me and kept the wind perfect so I didn't get scented by any of the girls some of which were 20 yds away. I could hear the herd bull coming up the canyon for what seemed about a minute and figured I would either get scented or seen hiding along the log I had been sitting on. When he popped up over the edge as the last in the herd I was shaking pretty good. I did once spill the load with a speed loader in the snow as described but quickly dumped the half filled barrel and loaded another. After that I did switch to pellets and have used them with good success ever since here in Vt where legal.
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Originally Posted by Muley Hunter
(Post 4233627)
Maybe that's why he needs a 2nd shot?
Just a joke, so I don't get a warning. |
To be honest, I didn't notice you were a mod.
I posted it for Cal. :) |
CI, I just switched to BH209 this year. I USED to use T7 loose (still do in my Hawk when I run out of Swiss) and years past I used pyro. As was mentioned, Pete summed up BH pretty well. Although expensive, to me anyway, it is worth the cost. I still light mop the bore between shots at the range but that is more from habit than any need. My Pro Hunter barrel likes loads in the upper range of heat. Light powder loads and that barrel do not play well at all together. But where I would load up 110gr BV of T7 I can get the same accuracy with only 100gr BV of BH with little to no loss in speed. As far as pellets go, I've never been a fan of them. As I have said 100 times on here, you would be extremely surprised at what a 5 grain addition or subtraction to a load can do for accuracy. Many MLers out there have a very touchy "sweet spot". Some land right on that sweet spot with 50gr increment loads like the pellets but most would seriously benefit from a loose powder charge with minor grain adjustments. My old Hawk is one of those rifles. With a 300gr connie and 80gr Swiss2f it shoots around 1.5 to 2" group at 100. At 85gr that group shrinks to 1 inch as long as I clean well between loads. It's just like loading for your center fires really. Take into account your twist rate, barrel harmonics, lands contact, groove depth, bullet ogive, and the many other things when loading up for say your .243 for long range yote popping. Loading up for a MLer is no different other than you don't have a case and you don't have to worry about bullet jump. All those things are still a concern for precision. Give loose powder a real swing and you will probably thank yourself (and probably kick yourself for not trying it sooner) by getting better groups.
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Point well taken SH-54. Only after reading the posts on this forum did I hear that there could be that much variation with the pellets. I never realized it and since I am a hunter rather than a dedicated range shooter the subtle differences weren't apparent to me. I sight in and recreational shoot both my smokers often but certainly not to the extent that many of you guys do. I am sure some of this group strives for connecting holes on target which is something I didn't think was reasonable with a muzzy. Like everything practice and innovation can bring better results. I have a whole bunch of Pyrodex as well as a bunch of different bullets I have tried throughout the years. Probably need to add to the collection:biggrin:
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Originally Posted by Champlain Islander
(Post 4233675)
Point well taken SH-54. Only after reading the posts on this forum did I hear that there could be that much variation with the pellets. I never realized it and since I am a hunter rather than a dedicated range shooter the subtle differences weren't apparent to me. I sight in and recreational shoot both my smokers often but certainly not to the extent that many of you guys do. I am sure some of this group strives for connecting holes on target which is something I didn't think was reasonable with a muzzy. Like everything practice and innovation can bring better results. I have a whole bunch of Pyrodex as well as a bunch of different bullets I have tried throughout the years. Probably need to add to the collection:biggrin:
 400 yards............  First 500 YARD 3-shot group using pellets.........  |
I would say that one is dialed in. Nice.....
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Originally Posted by Champlain Islander
(Post 4233675)
Point well taken SH-54. Only after reading the posts on this forum did I hear that there could be that much variation with the pellets. I never realized it and since I am a hunter rather than a dedicated range shooter the subtle differences weren't apparent to me. I sight in and recreational shoot both my smokers often but certainly not to the extent that many of you guys do. I am sure some of this group strives for connecting holes on target which is something I didn't think was reasonable with a muzzy. Like everything practice and innovation can bring better results. I have a whole bunch of Pyrodex as well as a bunch of different bullets I have tried throughout the years. Probably need to add to the collection:biggrin:
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Originally Posted by super_hunt54
(Post 4233721)
pyro and T7 pellets are pretty stable nowadays in consistency. What I was talking about is being able to adjust in smaller grain adjustments than you can with pellets. with them you have 50gr adjustments and that's it. Some barrels just have a sweet spot that is well in between that adjustment range. Barns's UF BP Express likes a maximum charge with that particular bullet but there are more than likely other bullets that it would shoot just as well with the adjustability of a loose powder and dialing it in. It's all part of the fun to me. Finding that sweet spot can be rewarding as well as frustrating as hell sometimes.
But........... that thing will shoot that bullet with pellets very accurately :) |
Originally Posted by BarnesAddict
(Post 4233724)
The Good Lord knows I tried. Spent the entire summer a year ago trying. Even sending a couple bottles of BH through it, weighed of course and ended up gas cutting the breech plug using it. Mostly my fault, over priming the brass primer carriers. Tried until after the "cows came home" to get it to shoot the 290gr Barnes and couldn't make it happen. This next summer I'll be trying some Swiss and see if I can get those Barnes to group at long range, along with the 275gr BE.
But........... that thing will shoot that bullet with pellets very accurately :) |
no kidding, open box exposed to air, pellet powder that sucks up moisture, is never a good thing. My last batch of t7 pellets went bad after only a year and they were still unopened but had taken up a crumbling dried out look. The pyrodex pellets lasted quite a bit longer.
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Originally Posted by MountainDevil54
(Post 4233735)
no kidding, open box exposed to air, pellet powder that sucks up moisture, is never a good thing. My last batch of t7 pellets went bad after only a year and they were still unopened but had taken up a crumbling dried out look. The pyrodex pellets lasted quite a bit longer.
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pellet shooters normally are known to sight in, hunt and then put those same pellets back on the shelf to use next year.
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Originally Posted by MountainDevil54
(Post 4233739)
pellet shooters normally are known to sight in, hunt and then put those same pellets back on the shelf to use next year.
I just shoot to much for anything to stay on the bench long. Store them properly and they last. At least until you get to the range....  |
I'm not talking about years, I'm talking about days. Open up your new box of pellets the day before hunting season and shoot a fowling shot thru your Chrono. Go hunting and keep gun loaded for two days. On the third day shoot it thru the Chrono. Then when your shocked at what you see, do the same test on paper at 200 yards. You will never use them again. I can't believe as much as you shoot, your not using a Chrono for many different reasons. I shoot at the most 10lbs of BH209 a year. That's when I'm testing new bullets. When I got nothing to test I'll shoot 1/2 that amount. I don't care how much money you have or don't have, I would switch to Smokeless powder for sure. And obviously by a NULA or something else rated for Smokeless.
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I do not want a smokeless muzzleloader. Smokeless propellant from a muzzleloader isn't legal to hunt with in the state, short of during the regular firearms season and the CF rifle zones. It can't be used during the muzzleloading deer seasons in any part of the state. Quite frankly it never will be legal here according to the State's DNR, who is dead set against smokeless propellant in muzzleloaders.
I have no problems on paper at 200yds, rather its fouled and then loaded for a week. POI will be at POA. I have the following on the list: http://www.mylabradar.com/ I have this on the list: http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/...spotting-scope I have 2 more cases of propellant on the list, 1,000 more bullets and sabots, I just lucked out and found another case of match primers yesterday so that got checked off. I need the dozer back on the property to widen a food plot and remove a few apple trees from the orchard, then level two spots for elevated stands, then push over a dozen trees around the house that cause a threat. Then I need to make time to shoot with a shooting coach, which I have lined up, just need the time. In my household, it has a "CFO"... Chief Financial Officer. SHE controls what's spent for on the list. Question answered? LOL |
Originally Posted by Grouse45
(Post 4233746)
I'm not talking about years, I'm talking about days. Open up your new box of pellets the day before hunting season and shoot a fowling shot thru your Chrono. Go hunting and keep gun loaded for two days. On the third day shoot it thru the Chrono. Then when your shocked at what you see, do the same test on paper at 200 yards. You will never use them again. I can't believe as much as you shoot, your not using a Chrono for many different reasons. I shoot at the most 10lbs of BH209 a year. That's when I'm testing new bullets. When I got nothing to test I'll shoot 1/2 that amount. I don't care how much money you have or don't have, I would switch to Smokeless powder for sure. And obviously by a NULA or something else rated for Smokeless.
I believe he already tried BH and froze the BP in place or something like that. The Johnson Ultimate Arms is designed to shoot up to 4 Pyro pellets and it may not allow him to shoot loose powder. This link will take you to the particulars of the rifle. http://ultimatefirearms.com/ |
Going to have to explain that one to me Sabot. How can a rifle rated for 4 pellets get a stuck BP from shooting BH? From what I just read on the site it tries to say since it is machined with such close tolerances that there is no blowback on the threads so that shouldn't be why. If he only loaded say 120gr BH it shouldn't at all be a pressure issue. Hell, they say they tested it to 125,000 PSI which would take a pretty good handfull of BH to accomplish that much pressure. I'm sure he didn't screw up and load up that much BH. With the .45 pistol case surrounding the nipple and closed off with the bolt that should seal things up pretty well so that shouldn't be the problem. Just trying to wrap my brain around that one is why I am asking.
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This is the first I've really looked at this ML. Even if it is as good as he claims. Why in the world would you build it around 4 pellets?? He clearly in my opinion can't have much experience in muzzleloading. Or this is an old design back when pyrodex was very popular??? Here again I don't know just thinking. Those few that I looked at seemed really pricy as well. I would bet you could safely shoot 4 pellets out of a green mountain barrel if you checked with them. But I wouldn't think to many people would be interested in 4pellets. The guy points out his ML is better then some pretty good ones. That catches my eye, but the 4 pellets is a real turn off to me. Least he knows not to even mention a CVA. I wanna learn some more about this ML. So many new ML'S around I don't even try to keep up.
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After reading more, it showed its been in production since 2001. That clearly explains the pellets. I'm surprised he has not built a more modern ML in the past couple years. He could achieve so much more with 300grn bullets and BH209. Or more importantly a 1/20 45 for long range shooting.
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I don't completely understand his rifle either, and why only pellets...but I will say, that sucker shoots. Him and his rifle :D
I'd be happy shooting groups at 200 that he can at 400. And yes, he did try BH209 and dang near ruined his rifle he said. I can't remember the specifics, he'll probably chime in. |
An HNI Editorial.
To our Members. There have been a few complaints filed about "Brand Bashing". There are several ways one can read and analyze what has been written by one author or by all. While there are some comparisons of products -so far it has been viewed as one person's opinion. Nothing more nothing less. Just a short note stating Yellow Triangle Reports do get looked at. Dave.....JW |
Originally Posted by JW
(Post 4233798)
An HNI Editorial.
To our Members. There have been a few complaints filed about "Brand Bashing". There are several ways one can read and analyze what has been written by one author or by all. While there are some comparisons of products -so far it has been viewed as one person's opinion. Nothing more nothing less. Just a short note stating Yellow Triangle Reports do get looked at. Dave.....JW |
Originally Posted by WV Hunter
(Post 4233794)
I don't completely understand his rifle either, and why only pellets...but I will say, that sucker shoots. Him and his rifle :D
I'd be happy shooting groups at 200 that he can at 400. And yes, he did try BH209 and dang near ruined his rifle he said. I can't remember the specifics, he'll probably chime in. Yeah right.... It gas cut the breech plug so bad and after a couple bottles of BH, it was blowing out the gas ports. The action had to be removed, the barrel put in a lathe and the center drilled out of the breech plug. Then a very large ez-out was used to remove the remaining threads. I stood there watching expecting to pony up and buy a new barrel. The entire action and barrel were inspected by Ken Johnston and there was no damage, a new breech plug was installed and the rifle re-assembled. Ken explained that it was rare to have to replace a breech plug in his rifles, yet when shooters shot BH from the rifle, the number of breech plug replacements sky rocketed. Mine just being one of them. I also believe I understand how I contributed to gas cutting the plug, which may have been related to how many times I primed the brass.
Originally Posted by Grouse45
(Post 4233782)
After reading more, it showed its been in production since 2001. That clearly explains the pellets. I'm surprised he has not built a more modern ML in the past couple years. He could achieve so much more with 300grn bullets and BH209. Or more importantly a 1/20 45 for long range shooting.
What needs to be understood is, the entire rifle and breech plug system was designed exclusively to shoot pellets and not loose propellant. That's what most have a problem wrapping their heads around, including myself in the beginning. It ignites pellets so instantly, its completely burned in the breech area and first 9" after in the barrel. That does not mean that T7 still doesn't create a crud ring, its just not nearly as bad as in production rifles. A single patch, ever so slightly damp with Butch's Black Powder Bore Shine used after each shot, will keep you shooting accurately all day long, to any range distance you shoot. Its an entirely different design than most are used to or fully understand. Ken Johnston is a master gunsmith. He holds many patents, including mathematical patents. He's still building and selling rifles even at, IIRC, 76 years young. Because of some of the new straight wall cartridge laws in some states, he's now building a bolt action CF on the .450 platform (Bushmaster), that shoots a single hole at 100 and inch groups at 300yds. Remington didn't invest a ton of money and research into their new Remington Ultimate rifle because the breech system didn't work, and regardless, there are still more hunters shooting pellets than most want to believe. Although some are shooting BH from the RU, Western nor Remington has released load data for it and, as I still understand it, Remington still doesn't list BH in the rifle's manual. Ken Johnston will tell you himself that Remington improved the system, most notably with a much harder breech plug. IMO Remington's only issue is solely related to their barrel, but that's a whole different story. I have discussed building .45's and also building to use BH209. Its not well received. Not so much the .45, but BH is another story. Ken Johnston doesn't care for the nitro nucleus properties. Although the rifle platform isn't for everyone, the ignition system and rifles are exceptionally accurate. |
Originally Posted by BarnesAddict
(Post 4233811)
When I purchased the BP Xpress, I like everyone else, even those currently, wondered why that rifle wouldn't shoot BH so I shot it from the rifle. It ignited and it would also shoot great groups. So I figured I'd just mastered the rifle shooting BH.
Yeah right.... It gas cut the breech plug so bad and after a couple bottles of BH, it was blowing out the gas ports. The action had to be removed, the barrel put in a lathe and the center drilled out of the breech plug. Then a very large ez-out was used to remove the remaining threads. I stood there watching expecting to pony up and buy a new barrel. The entire action and barrel were inspected by Ken Johnston and there was no damage, a new breech plug was installed and the rifle re-assembled. Ken explained that it was rare to have to replace a breech plug in his rifles, yet when shooters shot BH from the rifle, the number of breech plug replacements sky rocketed. Mine just being one of them. I also believe I understand how I contributed to gas cutting the plug, which may have been related to how many times I primed the brass. You are correct, the rifle was designed prior to BH. Although some may have known about the Ultimate rifle in the earlier years, most did not. It appears that even today some are just learning more about the rifle. There are very few posts or articles about the rifle, short of a couple writers that couldn't get a rifle for free then come out bashing it... What needs to be understood is, the entire rifle and breech plug system was designed exclusively to shoot pellets and not loose propellant. That's what most have a problem wrapping their heads around, including myself in the beginning. It ignites pellets so instantly, its completely burned in the breech area and first 9" after in the barrel. That does not mean that T7 still doesn't create a crud ring, its just not nearly as bad as in production rifles. A single patch, ever so slightly damp with Butch's Black Powder Bore Shine used after each shot, will keep you shooting accurately all day long, to any range distance you shoot. Its an entirely different design than most are used to or fully understand. Ken Johnston is a master gunsmith. He holds many patents, including mathematical patents. He's still building and selling rifles even at, IIRC, 76 years young. Because of some of the new straight wall cartridge laws in some states, he's now building a bolt action CF on the .450 platform (Bushmaster), that shoots a single hole at 100 and inch groups at 300yds. Remington didn't invest a ton of money and research into their new Remington Ultimate rifle because the breech system didn't work, and regardless, there are still more hunters shooting pellets than most want to believe. Although some are shooting BH from the RU, Western nor Remington has released load data for it and, as I still understand it, Remington still doesn't list BH in the rifle's manual. Ken Johnston will tell you himself that Remington improved the system, most notably with a much harder breech plug. IMO Remington's only issue is solely related to their barrel, but that's a whole different story. I have discussed building .45's and also building to use BH209. Its not well received. Not so much the .45, but BH is another story. Ken Johnston doesn't care for the nitro nucleus properties. Although the rifle platform isn't for everyone, the ignition system and rifles are exceptionally accurate. I'm not a big fan of heavy over built Muzzleloaders. I think that's why I know longer own a Savage or care for a Mountaineer. But Knight really is the only manufacture in business that could try to compare to this. And the Mountaineer would be the gun. After hunting season I might see if we can get the Mountaineer in the same league with this gun. I hate shooting pellets but it will be something to do in the off season. Im thinking 4 pellets and 300grn bullets gotta be a real eye opener on the shoulder but maybe not. But im almost positive four Pyrodex pellets wont get the velocity 150grns of BH or 777 by volume would. I would assume the pellets would be less pressure as well. Should not be any safety issues but ill check with Green Mountain as well. |
4 pellets will be noticed when they're ignited. I do not shoot 4 pellets in mine, rather 3 T7M at 180grs. I use a PAST recoil pad and the muzzle brake certainly helps. However its not as bad as one thinks, unless one is recoil shy.
NOTE: The charges being discussed are ONLY to be used in custom rifles, proofed for those charges. These charges should never be used in production rifles or rifles who's manufacturer doesn't list them as an exceptable charge. Read your owners manual and follow all safety warnings. |
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