Shockey's Gold Super Powder on the range
10-10-2015, 04:04 PM
#31
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,922
My experience with APP 3F was it's powder attracting moisture while loaded in the barrel. Had to shoot the ML twice a day as a safeguard.
I recall the large clumps in the jug. If I remember correctly, those clumps were not velocity-recoverable. If you were to separate enough of the clumped powder to register the 100 grains you were normally shooting,. you wouldn't even hit target paper at 50 yards.
I recall the large clumps in the jug. If I remember correctly, those clumps were not velocity-recoverable. If you were to separate enough of the clumped powder to register the 100 grains you were normally shooting,. you wouldn't even hit target paper at 50 yards.
10-10-2015, 04:57 PM
#32
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Comance county, OK
Posts: 11,408
The APP website says their production facility is located in CO:
http://www.americanpioneerpowder.com/contact.html
http://www.americanpioneerpowder.com/contact.html
10-10-2015, 05:00 PM
#33
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Boncarbo,Colorado
Posts: 9,186
Alright, 80gr JSP SP and the .020" patch this time around. Just 50 yards for testing.
It looks like swabbing VS no swabbing did not change the accuracy much at all. At the end and not pictured, I took 3 shots with 100gr and the first shot actually made me slobber as the kick was pretty darn stiff.
Cayugad, Im also waiting for the rifle to set up and see if theres any of that white fouling the first 5" or so of the muzzle. I remember getting it mostly with conicals and not so much patched balls.
Right now its decent accuracy for open sights and shorter distance shots probably out to 75 yards.
Lots to change in the mix but I feel like running it through the Chrony first.
It looks like swabbing VS no swabbing did not change the accuracy much at all. At the end and not pictured, I took 3 shots with 100gr and the first shot actually made me slobber as the kick was pretty darn stiff.
Cayugad, Im also waiting for the rifle to set up and see if theres any of that white fouling the first 5" or so of the muzzle. I remember getting it mostly with conicals and not so much patched balls.
Right now its decent accuracy for open sights and shorter distance shots probably out to 75 yards.
Lots to change in the mix but I feel like running it through the Chrony first.
10-10-2015, 05:39 PM
#34
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Comance county, OK
Posts: 11,408
Yep, according to the Triple Seven and BH 209 advocates none of the APP powders are any good. Every time someone says something good about a gun, bullet or powder some others just have to chime in and say the product is no good.
After firing at least fifteen pounds each of JSG, Goex Pinnacle (2F and 3F) and Black MZ, i like them all. My three longest muzzleloader shots on deer and hogs were made using JSG. Longest shot was a hog at a measured 226 yards.
i don't care what your test "results" were or whether or not you like the APP powders. i like the stuff. Sorry you could not make it work. You use whatever you want to use and i'll do the same.
This forum has gotten very hateful in the past several years, too many people get butt hurt too easily. i don't come here much anymore.
These folks tested Black MZ powder. No mention of clumping or moisture.
http://www.namlhunt.com/mlpowders2.html
After firing at least fifteen pounds each of JSG, Goex Pinnacle (2F and 3F) and Black MZ, i like them all. My three longest muzzleloader shots on deer and hogs were made using JSG. Longest shot was a hog at a measured 226 yards.
i don't care what your test "results" were or whether or not you like the APP powders. i like the stuff. Sorry you could not make it work. You use whatever you want to use and i'll do the same.
This forum has gotten very hateful in the past several years, too many people get butt hurt too easily. i don't come here much anymore.
These folks tested Black MZ powder. No mention of clumping or moisture.
http://www.namlhunt.com/mlpowders2.html
Last edited by falcon; 10-10-2015 at 05:43 PM.
10-10-2015, 06:25 PM
#35
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
Yep, according to the Triple Seven and BH 209 advocates none of the APP powders are any good. Every time someone says something good about a gun, bullet or powder some others just have to chime in and say the product is no good.
After firing at least fifteen pounds each of JSG, Goex Pinnacle (2F and 3F) and Black MZ, i like them all. My three longest muzzleloader shots on deer and hogs were made using JSG. Longest shot was a hog at a measured 226 yards.
i don't care what your test "results" were or whether or not you like the APP powders. i like the stuff. Sorry you could not make it work. You use whatever you want to use and i'll do the same.
This forum has gotten very hateful in the past several years, too many people get butt hurt too easily. i don't come here much anymore.
These folks tested Black MZ powder. No mention of clumping or moisture.
http://www.namlhunt.com/mlpowders2.html
After firing at least fifteen pounds each of JSG, Goex Pinnacle (2F and 3F) and Black MZ, i like them all. My three longest muzzleloader shots on deer and hogs were made using JSG. Longest shot was a hog at a measured 226 yards.
i don't care what your test "results" were or whether or not you like the APP powders. i like the stuff. Sorry you could not make it work. You use whatever you want to use and i'll do the same.
This forum has gotten very hateful in the past several years, too many people get butt hurt too easily. i don't come here much anymore.
These folks tested Black MZ powder. No mention of clumping or moisture.
http://www.namlhunt.com/mlpowders2.html
And you are correct on another item - you should very well use what you have confidence in - that is the right thing to do. And in my case I have never been able to get APP powder to perform as well as T7 either using caps or 209 ignition.
Do not get me wrong either - I am not saying it is a bad powder it just does not give me the performance that I want. I believe GOEX is certainly a better performing powder and I think Swiss out performs any other true BP. Oh one last thought - I really do think I might use APP versus any of the Pyro's.
10-10-2015, 06:33 PM
#36
Guest
Posts: n/a
You cant get something to perform no matter what you do, if the performance isnt there to begin with . and with APP performance definitely is lacking along with consistency and reliability
10-10-2015, 06:49 PM
#37
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
I am not sure how you can get consistency and reliability with the APP powder granuales the size they are. Plus the non-uniformity of the powder granuales that you might find in each load. I am not sure how each load could be uniform from load to load even if you weighed it. The finer granuales are going to burn faster than the larger ones. And i see no way to get a uniform load from load to load. The good thing is that with BP or BP's subs other than BH a load can easily vary 5-7 grains and the normal hunter shooter will not see the difference. And the difference for the sake of hunting might be minimal unless shooting at the longer ranges.
10-10-2015, 07:56 PM
#38
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Boncarbo,Colorado
Posts: 9,186
I had really good results back in the day with the chunky APP and their pellets. Its a learning process indeed but that's with everything in life. My 58 shoots RS and Select well, but not as good as Olde Eynsford.
10-10-2015, 09:20 PM
#39
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Irvine, KY
Posts: 157
I am kind of curious about the deviation in velocity from shot to shot for consistency. Both of my .58's perform very well with my current loadings of Schutzen 3F as well as Pyrodex RS. I like using real BP but it's a hassle trying to find it locally and the hazmat fee makes it more expensive. I would use the JSG if I can get consistent performance at a lower price and that's the bottom line for me.
10-11-2015, 04:18 AM
#40
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Comance county, OK
Posts: 11,408
The folks who run APP have not been helpful at all. For years APP told shooters to seat the bullet/sabot hard on the powder.
IME: All the APP powders require compression to work well. If you do not heavily compress the powder the sd will rise and accuracy will go to pot. For best accuracy it is necessary to seat a tight fitting ball or sabot very hard on the powder. Place a drilled golf ball or furniture knob on the ramrod and compress the powder. i also whang the bullet once with the heavy ramrod.
An old ballistician and myself used his very sophisticated and expensive equipment to test JSG, Pinnacle and Black MZ powder. One session with Black MZ powder gave an sd pf 17 fps. Highest sd was about 40 fps.
The lawyer/s at APP grew concerned that someone would get hurt while loading. They tolds folks to not compress the powder. Then they "warn" folks not to use bullets over 250 grains when firing their JSG Super Powder; go figure.
The folks at Alliant Powder tell shooters to heavily compress Black MZ powder.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/product...r/blackmz.aspx
i'm not concerned with the larger granules of the APP powders. JSG, Pinnacle and Black MZ work very well in conventional muzzleloaders that are properly maintained and loaded. After the powder is poured lean the gun with the lock side down and give the stock a whack or two with the hand. That will allow powder to enter the flame channel or bolster.
All the APP powders are ascorbic acid based: So was Black Mag 3. Ascorbic acid based powders will deteriorate over time. i had a few cans of Goex Pinnacle go bad. The stuff fired every time but the puissance was not there.
IME: All the APP powders require compression to work well. If you do not heavily compress the powder the sd will rise and accuracy will go to pot. For best accuracy it is necessary to seat a tight fitting ball or sabot very hard on the powder. Place a drilled golf ball or furniture knob on the ramrod and compress the powder. i also whang the bullet once with the heavy ramrod.
An old ballistician and myself used his very sophisticated and expensive equipment to test JSG, Pinnacle and Black MZ powder. One session with Black MZ powder gave an sd pf 17 fps. Highest sd was about 40 fps.
The lawyer/s at APP grew concerned that someone would get hurt while loading. They tolds folks to not compress the powder. Then they "warn" folks not to use bullets over 250 grains when firing their JSG Super Powder; go figure.
The folks at Alliant Powder tell shooters to heavily compress Black MZ powder.
Black MZ functions best when heavily compressed by the seated sabot.
i'm not concerned with the larger granules of the APP powders. JSG, Pinnacle and Black MZ work very well in conventional muzzleloaders that are properly maintained and loaded. After the powder is poured lean the gun with the lock side down and give the stock a whack or two with the hand. That will allow powder to enter the flame channel or bolster.
All the APP powders are ascorbic acid based: So was Black Mag 3. Ascorbic acid based powders will deteriorate over time. i had a few cans of Goex Pinnacle go bad. The stuff fired every time but the puissance was not there.
Last edited by falcon; 10-11-2015 at 10:10 AM.