New powder
 

http://www.alliantpowder.com/product...r/blackmz.aspx who=s gonna be first to try? :fighting0007:

I just sent them an email to see if this powder will have a reliable ignition in sidelocks with #11 percussion caps. I'll wait to see their response before and the price before I give it a try. It will have to be priced competively with Pyrodex.

Isn't it the same powder as Black Magic? That worked fine in sidelocks.

You know what happens when you assume Muley? I'll wait for their response.

Been discussions about this powder on other sites. the word was it would come in 12oz containers, i am pleased to see it will come in 1lb containers.hopefully it will as good as some of Alliants other powders.http://www.chuckhawks.com/black_mag3.htm.if it's as good as it was when tested the second time in this article, it will be another option and IMHO will drive the cost of 777& BH209 down.. that's a win win for us consumers..Ray

Old timer, i can't see a company like Alliant marketing a product that could possibly give there good name a black eye.let's hope it's even better than the 2 nd batch that was tested in the article i sited earlier in the thread.. that would be a definite win win situation for everyone using BP sub powders.and it comes in 1lb containers to boot.. :happy0001: Ray

I can't read the above article, but I assume they claim no swabbing between shots?

If they are smart marketers they will bring it out at a realatively low price and wait a year or two before they raise it. Only way I will try it.

We have not started shipping this new powder but will very soon. It
will be available to any dealer through their normal channels for
obtaining Alliant Powder. Thanks for your note and have a nice day.

Technical Service Manager
Alliant Powder Company

One step ahead of you guys. :wink:
My buddy is waiting for it to be released so he can get it through his distributer.

Up to 9 shots w/o swabbing is what I was told by Alliant. As long as I can reload in the field a few times if need be thats good enough for me.

Oh yeah and now its official 1 pound bottles!!!!! My local Grafs carries Alliant powders so i will be on them Monday about getting some.

Read the MDS too. It sounds a bit toxic. :p

I thought Black Magic was a great powder. I don't see a black eye. The only problem it had was hard to get it.

I listen to Hawkes as much as I do Toby and Russel.

I have never heard of Black Magic, only black Mag and Black Mag3. Same stuff?

Yes. I always thought it was short for magic. Maybe not.

LOL, Ok, I always figured Magnum...

I also realized why I could not bring up the link on the article on Black Mag3 listed above: have to remove the .if from the end of the link.

There was also a BlackDot in a 10oz bottle that never got to market and BlackMagXP.

It appears they more or less bought the name than the formula but i don't have the original MDS for a comparison. If its by the pound and cheaper than BH209, i really want to give it a try in the 45s.

according to the site, it is going to be sold in 1 lb jugs.also if it's $27.00, it's the same price i would pay here for 777..Ray

Ignition is 670 degrees. My brain has gone on strike, but isn't that higher than Pyro/T7?

Grafs has it listed at about $22lb but out of stock. If i place a nice sized order at my local Grafs they will get it for me.

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/...roductId/23435

Pyro MDS
http://www.wku.edu/msds/docs/Pyrodex.pdf

Looks like its easier to ignite by 70F.

777 MDS
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/T7-msds.pdf

About 100F less needed for ignition

It says under the description "water resistent". So I am assuming the ignition would be related to what is being used to protect the product from moisture.

Hygroscopic properties were my biggest complaint with T-7 powder. Those properties are why I swore off the T-7.

So IMO, the question about this new powder would be how is it treated(or what is it treated with) to give it a "water resistant" property??

Obviously "water resistant" is not "water proof". So I wonder what the trade off is??

And certainly this trade off is what is causing the inconsistency of ignition on most other powders?? So I wonder how this powder will differ in the ignition characteristics?? As noted by the ignition temperature in the above post??

So I wonder how the hygroscopic properties of this new powder stack up against the hygroscopic properties of T-7?? And against the hygroscopic properties of the BH-209 that so many of you speak so highly of?? VS plain old Black Powder?? Tom.

Ok. It should work a bit better in caplocks.

Probably not in flints though.:confused0024:

From Western powder:

Blackhorn 209 is virtually non-hygroscopic. Changes in temperature or humidity do not affect performance. Blackhorn 209 will not setup or degrade like some other propellants. Shelf life is essentially unlimited.

By looking at the data above-it shows that the ignition temperature is lower than the ignition temperature of T-7. So wouldn't that mean that the new powder would absorb moisture even more than T-7?? Since I am assuming it is the powder coating that is supplying the "water resistant" properties(I know what they say about assuming)?? And wouldn't that same "coating" be what governs the ignition temperature??

It has to be either that coating. Or the actual size of the powder kernels. However kernel size will increase powder burn rate if it is smaller in kernel size. But I do not believe kernel size has an effect on ignition temperature?? Tom.

Muley would you please show me a link to that statement. I would like to read more about that. I have never heard of any powder that is not effected by temperature or humidity. Including smokeless powders.

That would definitely change my mind about BH-209. But I would like to see more information on that. I am going to go to the "Western Powder" site and read some more. Thanks, Tom.

Muley it might work fine. I think real BP is around 500F but im not sure. I still think Swiss is hard to beat for that application if you can get it.

HEAD0001

Several smokeless powders are effected very little by temps. They are usually double based powders and a bit dirtier too. 5744 for instance is very easy to ignite but its filthy. Re7 is double based but its fairly clean.

I use BenchMark and Varget in my varmint rifles. I use them because those powders are not as temperature sensitive as other powders. I just have never heard of any powders that are not effected at all by temperature and humidity. This is the first I have ever heard of such a powder.

If the BH-209 is capable of that then it truly is worth the price it demands. That is what I was trying to get at. I understand powder burn rates. And how mositure, humidity, and even elevation effect the burn rate of powder. So that is why I am interested in a powder that is not effected by two of those variables??

As I have stated before. I swore off T-7 because of it's moisture problems. If BH-209 has none of those problems then it might be worth a try. Tom.

Here.


http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/advantages/

Thanks Muley. I think I am going to have to give that BH-209 a try.

I know you guys have been talking it up. But I have been skeptical all along about the powder.

But according to the information in the link you provided it looks like it really could be worth the price they sel it for. So I am definintely going to give it a try.

Thanks Again, Tom.

Well I will vouch the Bh209 has an unlimited shelf life. Its been over a year since I bought I case of it from Western Powders. I hated having all the bottles and since they were half full I just opened them all up and combined two bottles into one. I have had no issues with hang ups or a lack of performance with it. Plus last year hunting I had the same powder flask through out the season. From 60 for antelope to below zero with elk and no issues. By far I truly believe the powder is worth the 27-32 dollars. Just wish it would come in bigger volume like a pound or a 5 pound keg. This new powder might be good for all of us. If it is truly as good as BH209 and cheaper maybe Western Powders will drop the price or for the same price give us a pound.

I'm sure you'll like it. It's a very consistent powder, which makes it very accurate.

I think i'm most impressed that it has no crud ring. I hate those with a passion.

I liked black mag3. Worked fine in my mk85 and was easy as could be to clean up. That and nosler 260's made for an accurate load and the buck I shot and dropped in his tracked was pretty disappointed that it worked so well too. My brother did'nt like black mag at all in his long range hunter so I swapped him my stash of blackhorn for his black mag.

Muley Hunter

We actually do have some "common ground". BH209 (sofar) is the least effected by mother nature. Cold yes but its very non hygroscopic because of a coating. It is very consistent under the most conditions in the right guns. I quit using T7 too for the same reason. My crud rings were HORRIBLE but some of that could have been my fault.

My only complaint with BH209 has been the cost and 10oz bottles since i don't shoot side locks. That is why i started going smokeless last year. Its cheaper for a pound and i only need half as much. Plus its just as easy to ignite with the right powder.

HEAD001

See if you have load data for Reloader 7. Its between Benchmark and Varget in many applications and its double based. Varget though is REALLY popular.

I hate the price of BH too. That's why i'm not a range rat with it. I get a load to work for hunting, and then just hunt with it. I've been working on the same bottle for a long time, and I have plenty left for the rest of the year . I consider it just a hunting powder.

BH 209 and Thors is not a range load. It's only purpose is death and a full freezer.:happy0001:


I shoot my other guns for 1/10th the price.

I just bought two 8#'s of BenchMark. :D So I will be shooting it for awhile??

The price of BH-209 is not what really turned me off. What turned me off was the fear of another moisture problem like I had with T-7. That is the main reason why I did not buy it.

But if it does as you and Muley say then I am going to give it a try.

I would shoot it in my Knight LRH. That is my long distance MZ. I do not shoot it as much as my fun rifles. And every practice shot from the LRH is for serious shooting, and further load testing, as well as just learning exactly what the rifle is doing. I rarely shoot it more than 5 or 6 times per range session. So cost wil not limit my purchassing it. Tom.

Think of BH as being closer to smokeless than BP.

All these substitutes are great. But there ain't nothing like the smell of good ol BP smoke and the way it fills the air.
Oh yeah, and don't forget the pleasant odor it has in ur truck on the way home.

Well maybe we will get lucky and the new BlackMZ will help get the costs down a little more. If it is even close to BH209, then Western will either have to lower their cost or sell it by the pound to compete as effectively. Most people wont mind swabbing around 10 shots if the price/performance is right IMO.

I want BlackMZ mostly for my Knight 45s shooting 180gr bullets in sabots and possibly conicals. The 180s are my "fun" loads and i can keep 6 shots in under 1.5" consistently. Bullets are cheap, the sabots are cheap but 80gr-90gr of BH209 isnt for a fun load.

I will stick with BH209 in my GMB54. It just shoots too well and nearly all my loads are for 300gr bullets or heavier. Its my main hunter and less of a range queen although its deadly accurate.

My NULAs fun load is a 225gr FTX ($28/100) in a 10 cent sabot and only 41-44gr of powder at over 2300fps. Recoil is mild and i can swap out to the Barnes 45-225gr for hunting since i know its a good SUB MOA shooter in this one. The huge reduction in powder weight reduces recoil more than you would imagine. I will post some shooting vids when i get around to editing the videos.

I hardly shoot the Savage but IT will easily kill any NA non dangerous game humanely out to 300 yards with a 36 cent bullet. Its a pig though and i don't care to hunt with it atm.

I only shoot MLs during all deer seasons so costs are more important to me and until this year i spent many hours at the range or shooting them just for fun.

wheres mike? i figured he be all over this powder.. after all he test drove the super powder for us all! come on Mike!

What you're smelling is the sulfur. Pyrodex has the same smell.

Grafs already has it listed at $22 ! That sounds pretty good!