INRecordBookBuck

I don't like the forum salesmen either but several of them have helped make the final product near perfect BY posting in the forums. The first version of the Lehigh conversion was ok but because those involved in its production were on the forum....The GenII was awesome.

The Western Kit was also just ok and because it was posted, the final version looks much better IMO. I even posted when i first saw it that it could use more meat to protect the shooter but still meet the requirements.

Looks like Lehigh/Knight listened to the members of the forum and made the changes me an others suggested. Dont be fooled, Knight, MMP and even Green Mountain Barrel have people on sites that seldom post and or only just read the threads.

If the "shills" that post lead to a better end product, i can tolerate it. When they are so biased they wont even push a cheaper product from the same sponsor but it performs just as well...then they make me sick too.

Ive yet to see that the 300gr Thor is worse than the 250gr and its cheaper...as one example. TB hyped Crushribs but barely paid any attention to the Smooths. So then he tells people to use Teflon tape to make them fit better and keep buying the more expensive Crushribs????

A REAL shill is easy to spot. ;)

mike, rationalize any way you like....and this advertisement scheme may be good for some....but, pesonally.....I do not like it!!! And your right, I dont have to read it, I can ignore it and usually do but still like to throw it out there on occasion...just as my public service announcement...to let people know there are reasons these guys are here taking the time to hype a product......Not Paid----free equipment=paid.

So i guess this will be our heated disagreement....I do not like shilling and no matter how it is spun....I never will!!!

As far as being a tester myself......I am, i see a product that i want to try...i save my money and go buy it and hope like hell the research i did for the product was good enough that i think to myself, i made a wise decision....

Like the lehigh's why someone would intentional buy a fragmenting bullet, blows my mind.....I mean in the day we would shoot bullets and judge them on the weight retention after the hit......and a good bullet was one that held together.....

Then why not just use pyro and place more limits on yourself in YOUR inlines. I see NO difference in the analogy if its load from the muzzle, its a muzzleloader. The barrels are made to much higher SAAMI standards and IMO so should all ML barrels that recommend 3 pellet loads. You didn't seem to mind mentioning smokeless conversion in your ad for your Rem700ml you sold??? Is it ok only if it benefits you?

I have one shot and carry 2 more in my pocket. Even a single shot CF takes less time to reload. CF now serves other purposes for me and very few involve hunting large game that require tags. Some state "firearms" seasons are slug gun or straight wall pistol type CFs ONLY but you can use a ML with any powder you want. Should they be restricted too with the quality of modern slug guns and the new slugs?

Trying to tell us something....Are you shooting out of the lock hole of your trunk???? do we need to get homeland involved???

that is because we are locked into our coventional thought process - i was too. But in europe thay have been using this type of bullet for years - it is a proven by other users - using much smaller caliber rifles than you or i would ever use to hunt big game with.

And if you only knew the other places this bullet were being used you might be amazed.

Sometime if you get a chance go look at the Lehigh Defense Web Site might give you some ideas who else is using this bullet because of its terminal performance.

I understand the performance you can get from specialized muzzleloaders, but they will always have one flaw. No quick 2nd shot. I don't mean for a 2nd shot on game, but on animal that's trying to kill me. I hunt high altitude timber alone. I accept the limitations of a muzzleloader. No 2nd shot being one of them.

Even though I have a lot of years with muzzleloaders. I have more with CF guns. I know which one is more effective.

Muzzleloaders are fun to hunt with, but for my timber hunting. A Marlin 336 lever in .308 is the perfect gun. If I come to a meadow and need a long shot. I might hesitate with a ML, but not the Marlin.

If I could change Colorado laws, i'd have a separate primitive ML season. Then stick the inlines in rifle season. It wouldn't be popular to anybody but real muzzleloader hunters.

My point is made by you comparing muzzleloaders to CF guns. They shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath, but are getting closer and closer. Soon, they'll be equal, and make no sense.

That is exactly what I was trying to say, I do not begrudge you for using real smokeless... heck if you like use it... I just do not like the ideal.

And there are other folks (traditionalists) on this and every other forum that feel the same way you do about me using T7 and especially in a side hammer or even in an inline or even using a inline. I understand their point also and they have valid concerns but since I am following the rules as you are... what can I say.

I did? I do not remember that at all... I have never used smokeless in anything other than CF. And I can not believe i would have said that to anyone to use smokeless (other than BH) in that conversion I created for the M700. It was nothing but a Canadian nipple and a regular Remington Breech plug.

And again Scott - i really do not care that you use a smokeless ML - I just see no advantage to me using one

The 300gr isn't cheaper. You only get 14 300gr, and 15 250gr.

I'm guessing it's because Terry uses the same package for both, and 15 300gr won't fit. The 250gr are actually cheaper.

Oh I am not questioning the killing or stopping power but more about breaking a tooth on a piece of brass, while enjoying a leg roast...

But that is one of the features... It would be very difficult for that to happen... the petals are so light they can not travel in a meat medium. If and that is a big IF, they were to come off in the meat they would remain in the wound channel. The way the bullet is desinged and the way the petal breakage occurs it has to be in a near liquid medium.

according to the State of south Dakota you have a bigger change of ingesting lead from a modern lead copper bullet thant you do of finding a petal in your meat. Will not say it couldn't happen but it would really be tough.

Even if you were to shoot an animal through the shoulder, bones and all, the petals will not come off until the bullet gets a liquid medium. They may open but for them to reach 40* they need velocity and liquid.

You mentioned in the ad that it would be a good platform for a SML conversion and i agree it would be. I think its better than a Savage myself....with the proper mods.

We are getting off topic though and things are coming across that may be interpreted as hostile. The buttflappers give us inline guys enough grief and my favorite ML is still my GMB54 and will be for years. Only the NULA comes close and only because its so light and well made.

Plus since its Chucks old gun its special to me. The Savage really doesn't trip my trigger unless i want to test my pain threshold. :p I will probably never hunt with it in its present form.

ATM im most interested in a faster twist 45cal sabotless rifle for use with BH209 or any sub that will work. Im not one of the "cowboys" as ive been called who push the limits into the 50K psi range with smokeless/sabotless. My loads are well within max sub pressures and just as safe when used with caution. Cleaning them when i want is a nice plus too.

Each powder i use serves a purpose just like any powder you put in a cartridge. I just feel we are getting screwed over by the IMR sub monopoly and the best way i can fight back is going smokeless when i can. I hope this new powder puts a dent in Westerns sales enough to get its cost down or sell it by the pound. I hope it works great in my 45s with sabots. If it is all its cracked up to be, BYE BYE BH209 except for special loads.

Correct I remember that now - many people were seaching out Remington 70's for smokeless conversion. I hope I never implied that the 700 I was selling was ready to shoot smokeless,

No intention of hostility here - two different people with different trains of thought... I think we can still do that here in America, but the way the Republicans are going in Idaho - we might loose that ability to if we do not like who they like for the next governor.

Politics - tht wuld be an interesting discussion!

I can not say the BYE-Bye bit I still use it for testing and comparison purposes...

Got some Super Duper powder you can have though...

To be honest. I don't see a huge difference in performance between BH and Swiss. Swiss is dirty, but patches are cheap.

I'm looking for a powder for all my muzzleloaders, and it's sitting right in front of me.

LOL i used up the pooper powder on the 4th. It made a nice cloud of smoke and removed most of a stump we wanted gone. :D

BH209 wont be completely gone but i have high hopes for BlackMZ in the 45s with sabots. That why i have 5lbs coming. I wont mind swabbing after 9 shots or so and T7 still leaves the ring in mine. Ive done all i can to make it go away.

I should have enough BH209 still on hand to last me a long time and i really want to see if i can duplicate Parkers load with the 250gr BEs.

Nope my CFs are setup mostly for possibly dangerous game that require a fast follow up just in case. I wouldn't hunt a Griz or 500lb Boar with a ML unless i had a backup plan. I do have a "bugout" but if that is ever needed the government will already be basically gone already and plain survival will be most important.

Actually i think you brought up CF comparison first in this thread. ;)

Not me. Mine was merely a rebuttal and not all states allow the same CFs. Quite a few have heavy restrictions and love PETA. :p

Not Colorado. I could kill an elk with a cannon here. :D

Most of the states or locally contolled areas that do not allow CF do so because they are open to short range weapons like ML's and Shotguns... With something like a smokeless ML in which you can extend that range so drasitcally for a lot of folks, might not that cause a reconsideration of those rules?

Remembering in past history these were slug shotguns only and only in recent history opened to ML's.

That's why you should not believe everything your told. That's very far from the truth. As you grow up you will learn that, usually the hard way. And don't believe everything you read on the internet either.

Not even close,wind drift is horrible out at two hundred yards. The problem with the 45 SML shooters is they only have two bullets. 195 Barnes and 200grn SST, which ones worse? Both the bullets are horrible and i have shot many Deer with both to say that. The 45's need a good high BC bullet like 240grn or larger. Cecils 260grn DC is great at 2000fps. But 2500 or faster forget it.

Gm54-120,
I forgot to mention i can do 2500fps with my Knight 45 and a 200grn bullet safely and accurately with Bh209. Does it cost a little more...YEP.:s4:

Guess this guy just got lucky and got one good bullet out of all them bad ones you shot. 100 gr load of bh209 and a barnes .195 expander and a complete pass through DRT.

http://frontiermuzzleloadin.powergui...-questions:s3:

Oh, forgot to mention 190 yds lol..

Lol...I shot a Deer 12 years ago with a 22 Hornet. Complete pass thru and the Doe went only 25yds. Distance was about 90yds. No such thing as DRT, but pretty close to that.

What this all means..........absolutely nothing. Lol

Im 100% sure i said MANY CFs and that includes 45/70 ect and numerous Mag pistol rounds that are required in some states. 50 Alaskan would come to mind but it shoots almost entirely huge slugs at less fps. 50 Beowulf, 458 SOCOM and the 35Rem is probably no better and many 30-30s arent exactly 200 yard tack drivers. :D

Many is much different than ALL and a Savage will easily match a 450 Marlin too in ballistics. Swinglocks new sabotlesss MLs are using bullets with over .300 BC and doing very well if you want to take it to the next level with his 416 or 6.5 guns



Like i said, it takes some deep pockets if you really want to play but i draw the line at sabotless with smokeless. The PSI is just getting too high for my tastes.

Grouse the fact is your bad mouthing a barnes 195 gr bullet.from reading posts that you were involved in you clearly stated they were the knight red hots. yes made by Barnes. problem is they were made with the little tiny hollow point that indeed did not expand. the .195 expander MZ has a hollow point the same size as a .200 gr Lehigh. your bad mouthing the wrong bullet. i have tried to tell you this in the past, but as usual you ignore that fact completely, why? because you want to toot your lil horn about the Lehighs.a 200 sst,xtp no contest next to a .195 gr expander bullet. not even in the same league.SCHILL Away just do it elsewhere!!

The 195gr Expander has a .20-.22 HP? Mine don't but my Lehighs are pretty close to that. I can take out a allen wrench and get a better measurement if you want. :p

The 40cal Expander looks like it has a much smaller hp to me?


The Lehigh 275gr's HP were just over 5mm across the flats. :D

Gm, your absolutely correct,i was thinking of the other expander bullets, although it doesn't really matter where the Schill is concerned, since he bad mouths all of the Banes bullets on a regular basis. the .195 barnes is still a excellent bullet regardless.i have just about has enough of Schills like him only posting when he wants to advertise his wares. or when someone else makes a comment about his pet products, regardless if the comments are good or bad.the facts are the expander MZ line are terminal terrorists in the bullet world and the TEZ Also.ego maniacs like him push people from trying products..nuff said

Oh,one last thing, this Schill will go as far as to want to use a .45 cal 200 gr bullet on a ELK! with a load of BH well over what is considered max. to try and prove a point about his pet bullet. i find this disturbing and highly unethical..to even consider trying it! Ray

Like most, I never believe a salesman...... and you sir are a salesman, shill whatever you want to call yourself.. but, please do not call yourself an outdoorsman... you are very far from one, and take away from those of us that are..... it is people like you that has ruined my thoughts of many companies!

But, we have had this talk before. And no matter the reason they had one. so, must have been a good reason, why would anyone want to listen to a guy that was such a problem, he was removed from a board, we all visit.

And again i think we have had this conversation before also, I grew up along time ago so if you are the one to teach a ole dog new tricks and are wanting to teach me the hard way. next time your close to Indianapolis, PM me we can meet up for a drink and discuss our differences....

Got that right, he is why i will not shoot a knight or lehigh bullets...

Well and the fact that dead is dead and as long as hornady is around, I do not have to pay a $1 a bullet for a lehigh... when after 15+ deer has never made more than two steps with a $.48 SST..

But in a shill's world the lehigh is a superior bullet, Why? the deer is no more dead, do they advertise that with the seperating petals they are better on a marginal shot......I don't know about you guys but i consider myself an outdoorsman and as one I practice to hit where i aim and do not take marginal shots....

But this is the same reason i don't watch hunting shows. its all about pushing the product and usually at a higher price because some shill uses it or has his name on it!!!!!

Wow ......same old stuff.... another thread hijacked... Take your Schill stuff and start another thread. I only care about a possible new powder that can compete against BH. Cant wait for the testing results.

Not sure why we're all shooting such big bullets?

According to Grouse. All we need is a .22.

Well sit back and wait for a shill to tell you but, it may be a couple of weeks yet...so, we are talking about the shills...

Well if there are any alliant reps out there.....if you send me some for free.....

No, all kidding aside send a case to grouse, he will forget about the western powder junk and you will be golden.......

Like i said on this before on this forum. You have nothing to offer but this. You obviously have no one in life that listens to you so you try the internet.

My Knight manual shows load data up to 150grns of 777 powder by volume. You do a little home work you will see that an equal charge of BH209 has less pressure. So my 140grn charge by volume is under what the gun manufacture recommends.

The powder manufacture needs to keep maximum charge low because not all muzzleloaders are made the same. I do know you would not understand that. That's why they do it.

Deflection as usual, Bh209 clearly states on the product 120 gr.please remember we have a lot of people on this board that are novices.we don't need schills like you promoting it's "ok" to exceed those warnings and someone saying to themselves well heck, (the experienced person on my board uses 140 gr Bh209. heck if he can do that i am sure i can use 150.)this isn't about how well built your knight is you ego maniac! i will no longer air my total disgust for your actions on this board. i will take the fight behind the scenes and gather others from this board (lots of them) who feel exactly as i do about your actions and take it directly to the people you Schill for.i promise you they will not appreciate your actions. Ray

Please do so as soon as possible. Back up your words for a change.

builder459

Ive shot them all in the 45 and IMO they all have value depending on the game and distance. So far i haven't got the best consistent accuracy with the Lehighs but they are quite acceptable for hunting. Actually one of my best 200 yard groups was with the 185gr Lehigh but i struggle to get the 200gr to shoot nearly as well. My Original DISC might do better but my stock of 200s is about gone.

If Lehigh will change the base to resemble the Bloodlines, i will buy more and continue testing them. Just a slight change in a monolithic bullet can make a huge improvement and i think the change in the Bloodlines base proves my point is valid. I also know revised versions are being sent to some SML guys for further testing and when Barnes made a small change to their 40s it had a huge impact on accuracy and sabots drilling. Barnes has since changed the bulk 40s back to the old design thanks to several of the guys on Dougs.

Some Barnes also are not the easiest to get to group well consistently but once you find the right combo they shoot great. I avoid the tiny HP versions usually but the 175 and 195gr seem ok. The 285gr SpitFires have a terrible record IMO to fail to expand. I would love to see them offer a 220gr 40cal with a bigger HP.

If you want a cheaper Barnes option, try the 458-300gr SOCOM. It plain works and is my best shooter with 120gr of BH209. The .236 BC isnt bad either. $45/50 or less on sale. Me and Omega have put this bullet through a variety of loads/sabots and it works for us.

SSTs and FTXs usually shoot great but i avoid the 250gr SST for hunting, IMO there are far better and even cheaper SST/FTXs such as the 458-325gr FTX. It flat out hammers and even Knight uses them in some 52cal sabots/bullets.......IMO its the best 36 cent (at the gunshows) bullet you can buy and it doesn't take a ton of fps to perform. I shoot them in the Savage at upto 2300fps but i can go faster. I just don't care for any more recoil and personally it doesn't even need that much velocity but it can handle it.

Parker BEs are insanely accurate and were the "pet" bullet for many on the old MM smokeless section. They are awesome in sabotless applications too. Ive got over 100 of the 275gr BEs and some 250s coming for WAY under Parkers pricing. Im hoping to get them shooting sabotless with Bh209. It only makes about 28K psi under the heaviest conditions from my research. During that same time period, the NULA and SMIs were the darlings of many on that section too. ...Hmmmm i wonder what changed? If you ever handle one, you would see why and why IMO its worth the $1300. I would gladly pay that for a 45cal version but Mel wont make any more. Priming them though can be a PITA. The Lehigh conversion is much easier to prime/reload and IMO even easier than the Savage.

I pretty much own a variety of guns, sabots and use a variety of powders and i will tell you flat out how i feel about each of them. Not a single one is perfect but some come close. I take a little flak on Dougs board because im not a huge Savage fan and prefer the NULA. Plus i haven't given up on a Lehigh for 50cal SML use. The 275gr 458 in the past shot good for me with subs but i want to take it to the next level and gain another 200fps. SMLs quite often recoil less since they use less powder to achieve the same fps as 150gr of BH209. Try any recoil calculator and its fairly obvious plus when i shot the PT Gold 260gr near 2300fps it was VERY obvious. 43gr of smokeless kicked less than 120gr of BH209 in rifles of similar weight.

I don't post or recommend load data for BH209 above 120gr in the forum but according to the traces it is safe in a 50cal and should be in a 52cal too. I only share that data in PMs with a warning that it exceeds Westerns recommendations. USE AT YOU OWN RISK. Ive seen others do it but that is them and its not for me to scold them about it. Mods should deal with that however they see fit. Let them know in a PM if you feel it is dangerous.

When the GUN manufacturer offers that 120gr+ BH209 load data my opinion will change. Knight hasn't done it yet so....Even Savage does not recommend over 120gr and their barrels are tested to well over 100K psi. Green Mountain told me their ML barrels are tested to roughly 52K psi, CVAs are tested to about 28K psi according to their "shill" or whatever term you prefer.....so you be the judge on what is safe. Debating it here wont convince anyone that wants to try it.

Well this thread has been totally derailed and im just as much to blame. Lets all just hope the new powder is as good as they claim and it gives us all more options at a lower cost. Ive got 5lbs coming (i paid for) to decide for myself if it will do what i want and in the guns i want to use it in.

What do you have to offer Louse??? the only time you chime in on the board is to peddle your pet products.... Someone ask a question and you answer with how that can be avoided or there groups will be better is only they would use the products you are pushing....

Like any good shill you are great at your job ie.. knowing charges, trajectory, energy and speed.... but, you are paid to know it....

So, please do not jump on here and act like you are an everyday outdoorsman, like the rest of us. YOU ARE NOT!!! you are here to pull the wool over the sheeples eyes!!!

Sheeple

A individual that forfits their right to choose in favor of inclusion in groupthink and what is viewed as popular or elete group. Allowing the influences of different forms of media and group members to hold great sway in the formation of attitudes, behavoir and opinion.
To accept the group mentaility and opinion as fact.

I went ahead and put the defination in for Omega so, he wouldn't have to look that up....lol

Personally, I don't listen to someone who gets what they're pushing for free. Too biased of an opinion.

:barmy: AMEN :barmy: