Real good, but it's not in stock yet. most likely on order.. Ray

will it clump up like BM?

I would like to give this powder a try. I wonder if any of my local retailers like Cabela's might handle it soon.

Ive got my 5lbs back ordered :D

virtually non-corrosive...


it either is or isn't there's no virtual about it...

Semantics.

As long as some are comparing Blackhorn and Black Mag I thought I might add my @ cents worth. Blackhorn is a specialized powder made with nitrocellulose base With a small amount of the components of pyrodex added it is a progressive burning powder, Black Mag is a sugar based powder with a different formula and a moisture deterrent coating it ignites at 345 degrees which is the lowest of the subs and only 45 degrees more than the black powder at 300 degrees.It is not progressive burning.
For those who do not understand the difference between progressive burning and not.
Progressive burn is when a powder increases its rate of burn in reaction to rising pressure more potential energy can be released in a more timely manner this way so the pressure peak can be longer and lower and still get more velocity.
I tried to put a graph on that show the pressure levels many different powders are at when using 150 gr including Blackhorn but I can not get the page here to take my graphs.

Still trying to get that graph up
Well it won't take it and I am sure that at least some would find it shocking. oh well sorry about that.

Lee, you need to turn your graph into a .jpg picture file.

I'm not sure where you get your ignition temps. It says 670 degrees here.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/downloa...s/Black_MZ.pdf

Muley that's Fahrenheit, sorry about that I should have marked it.

This one?


http://randywakeman.com/ArePelletsForDummies.htm

I did not have the same peak on 777 pellets but I did not do any thing out of the ordinary loading them either other than that it is very much the same.

The blue line shows a worse case broken 3 pellet load. Allegedly Lymann did this test.

The crazy thing is several SML loads make nearly the same curve as BH209 but can make about 10K more near the end which is the dangerous part if its not in an approved gun.

Brought this back up so Chet could read it... Ray

Thanks I missed this thread altogether.I ordered a case locally but didn't ask if it was in stock at their distributor.I will try to find out tomorrow.nothing worse than backorders. It sure sounds good for my sidelocks

i am hoping bass pro will carry it or someone semi local. i hate the hazmat fee. there's a bass pro near my buddies 40 miles from here and when he is down there he could pick it up. then i could drive over there and get it from him. this is what i do with BH 209 when needed. of course we will let you be the tester first, before buying any :popcorn: Ray

Cabelas should pick it up too since they stock Alliant powders. Then i can save the "black gold" for other things. Since my cheap/fun load is 80gr and a 180gr in the 45, im hoping it will get me at least the same fps for $5-7 less a bottle. :D

It should work well with the ACP and Variflame primer conversions too.

It sounds like it won't. Read what Grouse said in the other thread on this powder.

If it reacts like 777 does with lighter loads and the 180gr....it will...ive seen plenty of chrono data for 80-90gr of 777 vs the same amount of BH209. In the 45s, BH209 starts to pull ahead with a heavier bullet or top end powder charges. On the light loads 777 is just as fast and the last Backmag was right in the same ball park as T7. Im also curious to see how it compares in the older Knight NFPJ conversion. I have one and the rest are all Lehighs.

Toby did a bunch of tests on the modern powders. I can't seem to find it, but Black Mag3 was part of it. It held it's own with T7 and BH.

I seem to remember Toby was pretty impressed with BM3 with the only negative being it was hard to find.

Mulie that review i posted on this was pretty darn clear. the first batch he received was garbage. later he received another batch and clearly stated it trumped 777.it was equal or greater as far as 777 velocities and needed no swabbing after every shot.the Quality control on it during that time was obviously not good just like it's still not good where Shockeys/APP is concerned. let's hope Alliant learned there lessons from the previous owners mistakes and refined it to do what they indeed say it will.Alliant has a good reputation in the powder world.again let's just sit back and see. we all may be pleasingly surprised.. Ray

I hope they get it right from the beginning. First impressions are ever lasting.

(COUGH) :eek2:

Tickle in your throat?

Actually in the 52cal with a Powerstem plug the Blackmag TB tested gave the highest fps with a 375gr bullet and less powder than T7. BH209 still beat it with a normal plug. One of the Randys on Hawks site had a similar result. The first bottle was garbage and the next was fine with FPS as good as T7. A while later Wakeman ranted and raved about it because the Savage shooting team did well with it at Friendship.

Oops that reminds me, i have a powerstem type vent i can try too. :D

Kinda got to sort through the BS and see if it works for you and the application.

Remember i did not shoot it over a Chrono. These guy's were spot on with the other super powder they tested. The velocities were pretty consistent but lower then BH209 with 250grn bullets. If someone else shoots it thru a chrono and has better results then BH209 or equal i will buy some or get some from Sportsman supply. Till then i have no reason to buy any right now. No ignition problems at all with 410 primers and 777 primers in the long Endeavor plug.

I dont want to completely replace BH209 since in some applications it is really hard to beat. I found some more testing Parker did with Bh209 sabotless and got very good results with just 110gr. I like shooting smokeless for top sabot fps but im wary of it in sabotless. Pressures can get really high under those conditions but BH209 is fine from the few traces ive seen.

I betting if its good though and better than T7, Western will rethink the 10oz dealo at the least.

I have an open mind about it. I don't shoot my inline much because of the cost.

I wouldn't mind using a powder that will work in my inline and sidelocks. There's noting cheap about BH and Swiss that I use now.

Buying Black MZ in bulk, and using it in both guns appeals to me.

Its going to be really hard for me to get away from BH209. Honestly I don't know what it would take if anything at all to get away from the powder.

nope, just a shill....cant speak for builder but......

You made me look that one up!!

Shill = An insider posing as a satisfied customer.
Shill = A hobbyist who writes unwarranted positive reviews in exchange for discounts or special favors from an agency or provider

dont get me wrong....i believe all on this board are avid outdoorsman but i question someones reviews and thoughts on products...when they are supplied to some for free to come on this board and keep the hype of the item up....

how do you think some average joe or supposed to be average joe can make a statement like..... If i have anything to do with it they will..... when it comes to lehigh and knight.....fine products but the insider is here pushing them along and getting the word out. who was that, that had a prototype mountaineer??? to write a review and get the pics out to us and tell us what a fine piece of equipment it was.... i am sure it is but, cant stand this kind of advertising!!

I was once told, that is the reason this poster is not on the MM forum anymore....

All it takes is shooting a book load of N110 in a 50cal SML and you will hate BH209. :p Its 5 times cleaner, cheaper, easy to ignite and only takes half the amount to make way more fps. :D

After trying it, i see what a rip off BH209 really is if you want top performance with sabots. It sure as hell isn't harder to make. ;)

To bad it can't be used in Colorado ML season, or I would have got a Savage when they came out. It doesn't make sense to shoot it during rifle season when a CF is a better deal.

That is exactly why free samples are provided by many different companies. You in effect become a cheap source of testing, information and advertising for a product. i would say that most sources of samples want honest feedback from the tester, while they also run the risk that you may not like the product and would say that also.

Actually you can do the same thing, especially for those two companies. Just email them your thoughts as a lot of other folks do.

A case in point... In the Pacific Northwest we can not use 209 primers for ML hunting. Knight made a conversion kit for the Extreme called a Western Kit...

This was Knight's original thought for the Western Kit...



If you look at the bolt you will see that is open all the way around. I believed that to be a bit un-safe in the fact that flying pieces of the caps could be lunched.

I wrote them an email, both Knight and Lehigh, and suggested a modification that i felt would make the gun safer, but yet meet the rules of the 3 states in the Pacific North West. They actually listened to a regular old consumer and produced a change that I feel is much better.

The bottom bolt in this picture was produced and is much of what i envisioned.



Now the bolt closes arounf the nipple and cap and offers some protection from flying parts, yet meets the rules of each state...



Yep! Knight sent me a bolt - free - and yes I have a stake in the production and information about this product. And yes! I did have something to do with the product design.

You can make a difference!

Have you been to other forums that are sponsored by manufactures... All of this in the normal everyday daily business.

All of us get the information and get a chance to make our own judgements.

Before today, did you know there was a Western Kit for the Knight DISC Extreme and did you know there was user created modification?

IRB, just so you know this (the shill thing) had nothing to do with the reason Grouse is not on MM. It was completly a different matter altogether.

Further, we all have favorites including myself - I push and I like Lehigh bullets, and I am also a big fan of Knight rifles - they are good ones and I have no problem saying so or even trying to show others that they are.

I really dislike BH because i believe they are taking you to the cleaners on the price - I do like T7 and push it as a decent powder also - the best for me. I really do prefer MMP sabots to Harvesters and I believe that the Bushnell elite scopes are one fine product and do not mind telling you so. I also think the Leupold U-slam scope is a good one a bit busy in the reticule but a good scope. Bull Shop conicals are awesome and if you are shooting conicals they are the ones to go to. Oh! and those concicals, were built and pushed with thoughts from average Joe shooters on DWB's forum. If you are shooting productlion lead copper bullets Go Speer Deep curls... really decent bullets.

According to the definition(s)

Shill = An insider posing as a satisfied customer.

He and many others on this and a lot of other forums get samples from many different companies... Just call havester they will send you all kinds of samples and realy do hope that you will talk about them. Many other large and small companies do the same thing... now does that mean you are an 'insider' - i am not sure but a lot of us have a stake in success of a product, but i can tell you Tom does not get a monetary payment from Knight or Lehigh, and I can guarantee you he is not posing.


Shill = A hobbyist who writes unwarranted positive reviews in exchange for discounts or special favors from an agency or provider.

I think I could also tell you that he and I know I would not write a positive reivew if the product did not deserve that positive review. I probably would not write anything if it were real negative in Tom's case he would tell you flat out or the product sponsor the negatives straight out...

If you do not want to here or see reviews of products by a certain individual(s) - do as I do ignore them do not read them.

As already said we all have our favorites and usually that is what we emphasize in our ramblings - I think it is your job to evalute the writing and make a decision to discard or check further.

sorry for the length...

And you cant use BH209 in some PacNW states because of the open primer regs and bad performance with that primer design...your point is????

Change the laws if you dont like them. ;) Missouri did years ago :p

BTW a good SML will match MANY CFs in deer hunting ability out to 200 yards easily.....you just got to be willing to pay the price. :D Even my Savage with a 325gr FTX and not even a max load is easily good enough to 300 yards but im not. That blows 45/70 out of the water and can match 404 Jeffrey knock down with a 400gr from a $600 gun. Customs built for sabotless have made the sky the limit if you got deep pockets. 500 yard kills is well within being a reality with several of them.

I guess I still don't see the point in a smokeless muzzleloader. If your going to go that route why don't you just buy a Ruger No 1. Its a single shot and a really nice gun and a whole lot of different cals. I'll admit, even wonder if BH209 is pushing the limits too far on muzzleloading. Muzzleloading use to be a throw back gun era and now its just as hight tech and expensive as centerfires. So I don't know. Just stick with my BH209 and see what happens.

amen!!! I pretty much agree...

also I have no problem wit those that choose to shoot real smokeless, but it holds no interest for me.

If i wanted to hunt with smokeless - i would just bring my 300 win back out of retirement.

I really do prefer to hunt with a ML... yet others would say tyo me get rid of the inlines and the all different powder subs and just use real black, percusssion caps, or a flinter...

"Can not please all the people all the time"

So why even go that route - just get your CF out and go do the deed