Will There be more bolt actions ML's in the future?
 

I love my Kinght rifles for several reasons:
1) I appreciate the incredible accuracy I have realized with both rifles.
2) The double safety gives me peice of mind.
3) The fit finish and handling is like that of a quality centerfire rifle.

If there is a downside to my Knights, it is that they require more attention and time when cleaning. In fact I believe that it is this cleaning time factor that has lead to the popularity of break-open designs.

Now that Knight is back in the market with bolt actions (hopefully with sucess) do you think we will start to see other companies introduce new bolt action designs?

Actually there are more reasons than the one you mentioned. Some of us who have shoot and like bolt cartridge guns do not see any logic in a bolt muzzle loader the bolt takes up space that could be well used by a longer barrel and adds weight to no purpose. I have had Knights and they are a fine accurate rifle but they do not shoot any better than several other high quality rifles in the same price range, just as good but no better. I have been shooting an Omega and a Triumph ever since they have been on the market, like all the other guns that I have had I did a bit of tuning on them. They have had many cases of powder through them and shoot just as good as the did after break in and tuning. All guns shoot some loads better than others including the Knights and I did a bit of tuning on the Knights to so the differences as far as as the good points go just are not there. I think the bolt guns will be around a long time because some people will always prefer them and that's their right but I think the majority of shooters are looking in other directions.

Dutch

I would certainly hope so... although at my age probably would not make a lot of difference. I much prefer a bolt for many reasons over a break open. I even prefer a drop action like an Omega over a break open.

I really do not find any difference in cleaning between Knight with a Lehigh conversion and a break open.

Guess I just prefer the durability of a single one piece stock with with a solid barreled action.

Just my 2 cents, and I know I am probably in the minority...

I myself prefer the bolt type such as the KNIGHT over the break actions, but thats my oppion.

I also prefer a crisp, adjustable trigger and like the Disc system...It sure makes it easier to drop a disc with a primer in the bolt and close it than to mess with those small 209 primers and finding the hole they go in...

sabotloader

You bring up additional good points. I also prefer single piece stock. In centerfire rifles there is an accuracy advantage. At least to those who can take advantage of it! I dont see any rifles without a single piece stock in benchrest.

However I admire the TC break open designs as well. My hunting partner uses an Encore ML with great sucess.

Like any industry, there are technology innovators (Knight, TC) and followers. I wonder if Knights reintroduction to the market will spark the technology followers to make bolt models in the future.

I seriously doubt that other companies will jump on the bolt action band wagon. as stated there heavier and indeed take a bit more time to clean.in the end consumer demand is what counts and it just isn't there for bolt action M/L's. light weight M/L's and center fire rifles both, are in high demand and break action M/L's fit the bill.Ray

I agree, even though there are break open centerfires their popularity is very limited.

I have a triumph also. but it mostly collects dust. Once durnig a late winter hunting season in cold weather rain-snow-slush. The action froze on me could not even get the hammer back to get a shot on a nice buck. But since that learning episode I have figured out a fix for that. I remember it happening to my Winchester 30-30 once when I was a very young kid.

Production is still driven by demand, and the break open seems to be the easy way out for most these days.

One other thing... I really dislike the motion and action of pulling a hammer back to shoot, at least with a Knight Vision you do not have to do that and you have a real safety...

I am sure Knight will re-introduce a break action in the future also.

I just like the bolt better theres less moving parts to ware out and over a long time the break acting will lossing up but there all fun to shoot

Lee i agree 100% with you. the only area i see knights being all around better is the fact they shoot big full bore conicals and saboted bullets both with excellent accuracy.My triumph was a tack driver from day one and continues to be. even the the upper end CVA's seem to be very accurate rifles with saboted bullets. Ray

Highly doubt any companies will make new model bolt actions.

CVA for example has one and its mainly suited for the shooters who have to use #11 or musket caps. No one with a solid foot print in the muzzle loading world will go full swing with making a new bolt action.

Easy taken down, easier cleaning, hand removed breech plugs, thats what a big majority want. Not messy bolts.

Oh before i forget, You'll hear, ooooh break actions wear out and get loose!

I don't let that non sense slip past me.

It is interesting that no one mentions safety as an issue. I always recommended Knights and TC to friends asking about getting into muzzleloading.

My standard line is that both are high quality products made in the USA. But I then make sure to explain the virtues of the additional safety on the Knights.

I just went back and added this to one of my posts...

One other thing... I really dislike the motion and action of pulling a hammer back to shoot, at least with a Knight Vision you do not have to do that and you have a real safety...

I really do prefer a real safety vs. the hammer... and there are times the secondary safety is huge safety tool...

Sabotloader,

I agree; like pulling the rifle up into treestand after you have climbed up. It is kind of hard to "remove the cartridge from the rifle" before you do that! Although you can take the primer out of the gun.

the best safety is an unloaded gun ;)

Agreed and the proof is in the pudding. you have a awful lot of rounds through those CVA break action rifles and still maintain excellent accuracy. Ray

Ray, they shoot better with all those thousands of rounds through them then they did when new! Of course thats mostly getting experience with them and learning what they like LOL. Either way, ive found no wear on the pivot pins or anything.

You are right. It is interesting that the state of Michigan considers any ML unloaded if it is not primed. It means you can tranport the rifle in your car with without removing the powder and bullet. Being able to mechanically block the firing pin with the screw cap safety is a nice benefit when you transport the rifle.

Same here in Colorado. Primer "209 - #11 - musket" / priming pan powder"Flintlock" must be removed though.

Exactly and on a CVA no less!:rolleye0011: lol... Ray

yep a gun supposedly made from poor materials that wear out fast :D LOL

Other than shooting my brother-in-law's Knight MK-85, I've played around with only one other bolt action muzzle loader - the Rescued Remington. It was a nice gun, but I just couldn't take a liking to it. That MK-85 shoots great but it's not for me.

I have the break open Lyman Mustang that has a sliding tang safety and no exposed hammer - a very user friendly system like the old top lever single shot shotguns. But I could never get anything more than decent hunting accuracy from it. It's a keeper, but no target rifle.

I also have the Omega X7 which in my view is the perfect in-line - very short action, one piece stock, simple action, very easy cleaning. I have no problem with the exposed hammer. I kind of like hammer guns. My two main cartridge guns are Browning single shots with falling block actions and exposed hammers that need to be c0cked to shoot.

after putting the lehigh breech plug in all my knights theres little to clean my actions are very clean after 40 rounds and teflon tap on the breech plug very little to clean on the gun know love it and have one of the old school super dics 45 cal 1-20 twist got it in 1990 shoots as good today as first day and over 5000 rounds on it

I have shot the bolts,break opens and drop breach style.

First the bolt was a Rem 700 ML,shot very nice just didn't like the bolt.Then it was a NEF Heritage ML break open.That was my go to gun for many years.Very simple to clean with a MU plug and accurate.This season she is taking a break.


I then found a Omega X7 {should have bought two of them} and like Semi said,it sure seems like the perfect ML.Accurate and easy to clean with the drop out action.

All in all the three style's keep the industry going even in hard times,with the price of Hawkens and the likes in-lines are getting more popular, plus with the extended seasons in most states in-line sales should be on the rise.

TC,Knight and even CVA can only innovate so much on a ML.

Shooting muzzle loaders is a blast !!

Steve

Back in the 1900's i used to hunt with a center fire rifle. Elk is what we hunted mostly, but sometimes antelope, and if a deer happened by, we killed it. I always wanted to carry a lever action with an exposed hammer. I've always preferred an exposed hammer. The lever action guns of the day with the exposed hammer weren't really chambered for Elk cartridges, so i continued carrying bolt action rifles with 'safeties'.

Our son decided to start packing a 30-30. He killed several elk with it, and ended up losing a few. He soon gave that up.

Today, i only hunt with a muzzle loader. One reason, is mine don't have 'long' actions, because there is no bolt. My hunting rifles have 24" barrels, and are inches shorter than my bolt action rifle with a 22" barrel. We always hunted elk in thick timber, and my short light muzzle loader would have been a perfect elk rifle.

Today i only hunt with a muzzle loader. One reason is because my rifles all have exposed hammers. Exposed rebounding hammers make me happy. I like the way they look. I like the way they work. When not pulled back, they don't make contact with the firing pin, and are blocked from making contact with the firing pin. The only way the exposed rebounding hammer can make contact with the firing pin, is iff the trigger is pulled back. If the hammer isn't pulled back i can see that it isn't. If the hammer is pulled back it is visibly ready to fire.

Back in the 1900's an exposed hammer wasn't so safe, because they relied on the 'half cooked' notch to keep it away from the firing pin. One could pull the trigger when the hammer was in half cook. More than once i saw guns carried with the hammer down on a loaded chamber or cylinder. Them old guns aren't near as safe as the newer guns with rebounding hammers.

Modern muzzle loader rifles with exposed rebounding hammers are short, light, safe, accurate, and my choice for packing whilst hunting.

Break action Muzzleloaders are here to stay. The main reason why is they are just plain simple. And with a ML the odds of wearing out or loosing up are very slim.

As far as safety, the exposed hammer gun has had more accidental fires then any other design ever made. More so from unloading holding the trigger then releasing the hammer. Knight Rifles has this already figured out, and hopefully changes a few things on the vision and starts testing them this year.

Those looking for break opens really only have two good safe options right now. The first choice is a T/C Triumph. The second is a Knight Vision. The Triumph is great right out of the box, and the Vision needs a little tweaking for most.

A bolt action should always be available for those that desire one. Will Knight be standing alone? Not having choices would suck. Grouse is it cheaper to make a break action?

There are many view points, mine is that I do not want any one walking behind me with a loaded gun that needs two safeties to be safe. I have shot and hunted all my life and i am pushing 75 years old and the only accident that has happened was from a hammerless gun that the sear slipped on when the action was closed, since it was pointed in a safe direction the only result was the gun being junked. i just can not imagine fooling around with two safeties with an alert buck standing 15 yards in front of me. If you do not use it what good is it?

CVA has and continues to make a bolt action and yes break actions are cheaper to make. Ray

People use the safeties different ways. When i am hunting i only use one safety. Going in and out of a tree i usually never have a primer in.

I agree that it is totally up to the user whether to use the extra safety. It does not mean the gun is less safe than others when using only the trigger safety as lemoyne said.

most hammer inlines have a scope, so that scope is going to take the hit long before the hammer will.

Its common sense safety plain and simple. You dont go walking around with a primed rifle when on slippery surfaces, dry or wet. If you see something you're about to walk through and something looks out of place or you just get a feeling, you simply remove the primer to be on the safe side.

No words in an owners manual or any kind of safety will completely make up for someones stupidity or clumsiness.

Some say the break opens were what closed knights doors!! I think the t/c,knight,cva,traditions are only as safe as the operator.My question is when smith and wesson says we dont need any muzzle loaders in t/c lineup and kills that program.


Jason

Twenty years ago when I got my first Knight rifle it came with a VCR tape for care and cleaning. On that tape it also demonstrated the screw-type safety. The fellow on the screen put the muzzle of the loaded rifle on a stump and them proceeded to hit the back of the plunger repeatedly with the edge of a 2x4. He really whacked it about 7 times quite hard. The he unscrewed the safety, aimed and fired the rifle. It was an impressive demostration that left an impression on my.

I prefer a safety that mechanically blocks the firing pin. This is the same reason my centerfire rifle of choice is a Winchester Model 70 (or something similiar). Although I must say my 270 never gets used for hunting anymore. I like my ML too much!! But you guys know that feeling :o)

Man I hope your fear doesnt come true. TC is a fine, quality made, American made muzzleloader. It would be a shame if S&W did as you mention.

Much of the time i hunt while there is snow on the ground. Much of the time i hunt on slopes. Sometimes there are rocks. Sometimes there is tall grass. Sometimes there is a deep mat of pine needles. I have fellen down a jillion times whilst hunting.

If i didn't have a primer in my rifle whilst walking on something slippery, i would virtually never have a primer in my rifle whilst hunting. When hunting, i used to always have a cartridge in the chamber. My rifle never discharged once because i fell, which i did a jillion times. Nowaday, i hunt with a primer in my rifle at all times. I would never get a shot off if i removed the primer because it is slippery where i was walking. I have fellen down less than a jillion times carrying my rifle with an exposed hammer with a primer in place; my rifle has never fired because of my fall.

A rifle with a rebounding hammer will not fire when the hammer is struck because the gun is dropped, or the hunter falls. The hammer won't hit the firing pin when/if the rifle is dropped. The hammer can only hit the firing pin if the trigger is pulled. To allow the hammer to hit the firing pin the trigger must be pulled.

Safety is one example of how TC rifles are superior to CVA rifles. The Omega and Triumph and Accura rifles all have rebounding hammers, which cannot hit the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled. The TC rifles don't allow the trigger to be pulled unless the hammer is cauked. The hammer can't hit the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled, and the trigger cannot be pulled unless the hammer is cauked. An accidental discharge due to a fall is virtually impossible, when one is carrying a TC rifle.

The CVA on the other hand, allows the trigger to be pulled when the hammer isn't cauked. Chances are very very very slim that the CVA rifle would fire if dropped on the hammer, because the trigger needs to be pulled at the same time it was dropped. The trigger would have to be pulled at the same time the rifle is dropped on the hammer in order for the CVA rifle to fire. This isn't very likely.

When carrying any of my rifles with rebounding hammers, i don't spend any time worrying about accidental discharges, whether walking on ice, or snow, or rocks, or pine needles, or bare dry level ground.

Well, i spent about 10 minutes searching the internet trying to find information about these alleged exposed hammer accidents, and couldn't find anything. Do you have a link to such information?

I highly doubt that TC would close the doors on inlines. Maybe the Hawkens, but not the inlines. There are tooo many people that have them and also hunting shows that the host use the inlines/pro hunters. Just too much money in it for S&W/TC to give up. As for the Hawkens I believe they may be out the door. Years go by and the price kepts going up. A new one is 800 to 950 dollars. Just way too much money when a person can get a Lyman.

Lack of s decent break action was part of knights demise.they made a couple of other rifles, that were not up to snuff and that didn't help there cause. imports most certainly didn't help either. the vision with some tweaking may be a good rifle, i just can't get past the fact it looks like a shot gun and not a rifle.not my cup of tea!! Knight will have to survive as a "small" premium rifle maker.IMHO they will never be what they once were with there current line up.all there rifles are basically the same thing with different stocks and barrel design tweaks. there barrels,stocks and triggers are the cream of the crop.i own a $150.00 NIB .50 cal wolverine and it's one solid rifle, with excellent accuracy.Ray

That's true but everyone can make a mistake. The lever action Winchester killed a lot of people in the old days because of stupidity. Not sure but i think Marlin lever guns added a second safety for that reason. They might not tell you that's why, but it was.