I do not see that happening ever. Smith needed TC more than TC needed Smith.

Charlie

X2, contrary to popular belief,Smith bought T/C to get there feet in the long rifle market,and not for it's tooling. smith made pistols not rifles and T/C's tooling was of no use to them as far as there pistols were concerned. T/C was also still making a profit when it sold out to Smith. Ray

I believe you are going to start to see a return to more traditional muzzle loading. Muzzle loaders for all intent and purpose have almost become as accurate and proficient as a centerfire bolt action rifle. With the exception of only having one shot.

So whether it is a bolt action MZ or a break action MZ I think states are going to go back and start re-regulating MZ season. After all these seasons were originally called "primitive weapons season". And it would be fair to say that alot of today's modern MZ's DO NOT qualify as "primitive weapons".

Personally I hope they do go back to primitive weapons. One of my favorite hunts is the PA FL only hunt for deer.

I am just as guilty as most when buying more modern MZ's. I also have a couple of MK-85's, and a Knight Long Range Hunter and TC Encores. So I am every bit as guilty as everybody else.

I did order my first custom FL rifle this year, and hope to have it soon.

Earlier someone said the break actions are here to stay in the MZ world. That may or may not be true. I really don't know. But I feel fairly sure that there are going to be some more advancements in MZ's, and we are going to hit that point where they will completely loose their "primitive weapon" status.

I know, I know they still load from the front. But I beg anyone to try and prove to me that there have not been unbelievable advancements in MZ technology. I know I have sure taken advantage of many of them. And this to my hunting skills demise. Tom.

I have heard there were a few reasons why S&W bought TC. Getting into the rifle market was one. But they could have easily done that without buying TC. I heard the main reason Smith bought TC was to gain their technology and skills in casting. That is where TC really stood out.

And I can easily see Smith dropping most of the TC MZ market. All but the Encore. But I think rather than just dropping that market they may just spin it off. But I do believe Smith has little desire to market MZ products. I believe you will see a alot of TC MZ products go away. Jut an opinion. Tom.

Bolt action muzzleloaders are not selling well. About 80 percent of the hunters i see are using break action guns. In the past few years Gonic, Austin and Halleck and Knight went away: Methinks it's not a co-incidence that they were makers of bolt guns. Now Knight is back, at least temporarily.

Looks like Savage is making another run of bolt action MLs and are selling fairly well. Buds and a few others already have them in stock and i know people that have already received new ones.

yea I agree-If I was going to get a Knight I'd rather have one with a bit shorter barrel-I'd prefer an OAL lengh of 42-43 inches.

It is a real shame they didn't offer a brush gun like the GMB54-120. IMO it is still one of the best handling field guns i have ever carried and packs plenty of knockdown. Weight and length are both very reasonable even with a laminate stock.

It's always about supply and demand GM. no demand for the .54... Ray

The Green Mountain 54-120 was badly marketed by Green Mountain. It would have been a nice addition to Knights new line up. It did not have to be a .54, it could have been a .50, Green Mountain still makes their barrels.

I was not wanting a .54 but the gun was beautiful and $424.00 shipped to my door was a no-brainer. Thats a deal I was not going to pass up and I am glad I did not. It is one of the most accurate inlines in my safe that throws a big bullet down range with alot of punch!

Ever shot one? You would want one after a few rounds down range.

people wanted cleaner acting for cleaning and the break acting had this first knight did not have this but today they have this and this will take a little time for people to see and will want to buy there guns but people do not have money right know and will be slow coming and they what a gun to shoot any powder they what to shoot as for as black powder sub are black powder and top quility for there money time will only tell what next i hope all companys do good this is what pushes better gun for use

I am not bad mouthing the rifle in any way. i am stating fact and that's all. companies market products according to demand and there isn't a huge demand for .54 cal rifles. the .50 cal would probably sell much better, since that seems to be the preferred caliber in muzzleloaders and no lol i have not shot one. i want a .45 cal, not a .54 cal..Ray

Bottom line is break action rifles are here to stay. T/C rifles fire all subs reliably with proper cleaning of the BP and proper primer. even CVA has addressed this issue with a new BP coming to market soon, that will reliably fire all BP subs. IMHO even in a robust economy Knight will stay a small company that markets quality upscale rifles.i just don't see the vision being a popular break action rifle even if it is re marketed with improvements.i just can't get past it looking like a shotgun and not a rifle lol. Ray

With my .54 I do a lot of shooting using .45 caliber bullets in a .54 sabot. That's one of the benefits of the .54 caliber, one can shoot .45, .458 and .50 caliber bullets in the proper sabots. If one wants to shoot conicals it can do that too. As far as my favorite caliber, .45! I have a custom in the works now that should be done by the end of the month.

I'd have got one of those if it had been a .50 cal with a 22-24 inch barrel.

I called Green Mountain before ordering online to see if I could have mine in a .50 but they said .54 only. I am satisfied with it and will probably never part with it. I had a few email conversations with Gordy at Knight and "thought" it may make it into the new line up as a .50.

My friend has cut down alot of muzzy barrels to 20", laid a sheet on the ground and shot up to 110gr of BH209 and was getting complete powder burn. FPS loss was only around 80 from going 28" to 20".

I really would like to see a .45 next year from Knight. Word on the street is they will have it in the 2012 line up.

The .50 cal Wolverine i own has a 22 inch barrel and it shoots excellent. i have read a lot about FPS loss with shorter barrels and it is very minimal as you stated. i still want a 1:30 twist .45 cal Knight for strictly conical shooting.i really don't even care if it is a plunger style. by this time next year i will be shooting conicals only in the .50 cal knight wolverine and hopefully a .45 cal Knight also. Knights shoot both conicals and saboted bullets excellent. if they do market a .45 cal next year i won't be buying one. there just asking to much for there rifles IMHO. i will buy used.Ray

This seller has 3 Extreme .45's available but they would be 1:28. Its worth a call to see if they are actually Elites just mismarked, which would be 1:30. Price is pretty good considering Knights new prices.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=231367747

Actually ALL Extreme 45s were 1-30 twist except the special Target model had a 28" 1-18 twist. Ive seen people label them as 1-28 but ive talked to Sam at Knight and he is sure all of them were 1-30 except some prototypes.

A few MKs were 1-24 and some Originals were 1-20.

BTW DL656U=DISC Elite Blue 45 26" breakUp camo.

short barrels anyone? LOL. This is one of my forum members 20" Apex.
http://i951.photobucket.com/albums/a...T/DSCF2090.jpg

So they are Elite's mismarked? I did not look at the DL656U but would not have known what it ment anyway. I was just looking for Builder, I have no intention on buying another.

Yes its another mismarked Elite just like the ones from Guns Unlimited that had my Original 45 NIB. Its Knights old DISC Elite SKU. It appears the new Knight basically just added a "M" to the new SKUs.

Some examples but not all
DE = Disc Extreme
DL = Disc Elite
D = DISC Original

First number is finish, second is caliber and third is length.
706 = .50 cal stainless
606 = .50 cal blued
756 = .45 cal stainless
656 = .45 cal blued

The last number is barrel length
6-26"
7=27"
ect

The last letter/s can mean several thing including style, material and pattern on the camo version. Im not 100% sure on the F. I would have to check my Original box but i only remember it having a C. Some may not apply to all models.
T = Thumbhole
C = Composite
F = Fluted

Examples:
DL756C = Disc Elite, .45 cal stainless, composite stock.
DE706CF = Disc Extreme, .50 cal stainless, composite stock, fluted.
DE756TC = Disc Extreme, .45 cal stainless, thumbhole composite stock. (which happens to be fluted since it is a .45 caliber)

This might help others looking at them on auction sights if the seller listed the SKU.

Nice Apex carbine and as soon as they start making them in the USA i will consider buying one if they offered a 500S&W or a 45/70 or a 450 Marlin. NEF offers them in the calibers i prefer with laminate stocks and SML conversions are cheap/easy.

Looks real nice too.


Oddly CVA claims NEF does not offer a SS Handi or fluting which are both lies in the Scout comparison. Just look at their lineup.


Until we get our economy back on track, my luxury item purchases will be as close to all Made in USA as possible. Some of us still love the USA and want to support our working folks instead of a socialist government.

with only that small loss of FPS it's silly to be dragging around a shotgun length ML-now that I look back that's why I got rid of my last Knight...3-4 inches too long...

My 20" GMB54-120 shoots amazing groups even with a 54x45 sabot and a max load of BH209. Its too bad you missed out and they tend to hold their value extremely well. The last one i saw for sale went for roughly the original MSRP.

I have one final thought on the original question; will there be more bolt action ML's in the future.

I do believe that there are some advantages to a bolt action ML. Perhaps this quote from Tony Knight would best sum up my person opinion.

"It is common knowledge that break-action rifles are vastly inferior to bolt-actions in terms of trigger quality, accuracy and so forth. It is that way in center fires, rimfires and that is just as valid in muzzle loading rifles. No one with any basic understanding of firearms design would opt for a break-action platform. Ever see a break-action at Camp Perry? There’s a reason for that."

When survey the ML rifle industry I see only one company today that has the resources and the desire to advance the ML rifle technologically. That company is Thompson Center. Clearly they have done a great deal in the past (Encore and Omega are two shining examples). They have a great deal invested in the success of the break open design. I personally don' see them introducing a new bolt action model. Given the overwhelming dominance of break open ML's in the market today, I doubt that they would break any new ground here. All that said, they do have a strong interest in the bolt action center fire rifle market with the new Icon line. This is one of the most interesting new bolt rifles in many years. With Knight back in business in with a vested interest in bolt ML's, it is not too crazy to wish that we could see and Icon ML in the future!

Lets shift the focus to Knight for a minute. The old Knight company set the gold standard in pushing technology in the ML market. They also did more than anyone else to improve and enhance the ML hunting scene in all our states. They even lobbied on behalf of the sport. However with the sale of the company to new owners, the organization lost its way. From reading interviews with Tony, it is clear he did not agree with the introduction of the newer, non-bolt type ML's that were brought out under the brand. Ultimately they went out of business. As is usually the case, I suspect simple bad management is the real culprit. The good news is that they are back under new owners. It is clear that these new owners are hunters and shooters first. Their love of the sport, and the good impressions they had with Knight rifles, proved to be the motivating factor for their purchase and reopening of Knight. I truly hope that they will pick up where Mr. Knight left off and become the exemplary company who supports and helps grow the industry. They have already introduced the Mountaineer which appears to be one of the highest quality ML's available on the market. It is also nice to the new commitment to building rifles in the US.

If they are successful, we will see new bolt action rifles in the market. The foreign producers have always copied the market leaders in the past and they will do so in the future. By the way, it is not a bad business model to follow the trends. You can see this clearly in the auto industry.

In conclusion do I hope to see more bolt action muzzle loaders in the future? Absolutely! Will it be so? I don't know for sure, but it will be interesting to watch.

God bless all you guys and gals. Keep shooting; it is our right.