TC vs CVA, US vs foreign. friendly debate
 

I guess I am going to open up an hornets nest on this. not my style but I feel I should post this.

all this debate on us vs foreign. focuses on TC VS CVA right now. they are the big two muzzleloader companies at the time.

(note: all numbers are just my guess, no research)
CVA, made in spain. employing 250 to 500 people in that factory.

they are moving to an larger building for distributing there goods in GA., I don't remember reading any where they where laying people off. this also could mean they could be adding jobs (American jobs)

yes it would be nice if they moved the factory over here.

TC (S&W sub) moving to the springfield factory. closing the tc factory, laying off people, they offered some transfers but in fact people are losing jobs. the long run could also add jobs.

little food for thought

i would rather buy a made in the USA product if the price is not too high and the gun is of good quality.

Beginning in about 2000 i bought three new CVA guns; a StagHorn, a Mag Hunter and another one that was soon given to my son. The stocks on the remaining guns were flimsy and it was necessary to bed the actions and float the barrels for consistent accuracy.

My TC Black Diamond gun is the older one with the 22" barrel: It was bought new within the past two years. i did have to smooth out a very rough bore; otherwise it has been a trouble free gun since day one. The blue job on that gun is much better than that on my Encore.

Then there is my Encore:

1. The insert fell out of the front sight the first day at the range
2. The ramrod thimbles were loose from day one: They bottomed out in the screw holes. The rep at TC was not interested in fixing that so i ground the screws down shorter and re-installed them.
3. The hinge pin was grossly out of round. Bought a new one from Bellms.
4. Had misfires with the centerfire rifle barrels with the hammer extension installed. Bought a stronger hammer spring from Bellms.
5. The bore was very rough and was nearly impossible to load. Worked the bore over using jewelers rouge.
6. The stock was loose. Tightened the stock.
7. Because of the ejector design, the gun had to be taken apart in order to remove the breech plug. Not to worry, those fine marketeers at TC had a spiffy new hinged ejector for $17.99 plus shipping. Bought the spiffy new TC ejector.

That gun is just great now and i hunt with it a lot.

I own 4 TC ML's all perc. 3 caplocks & 1 Blk Dia inline. Never owned a CVA or Traditions nor Lyman or any other. I can't say nutten bad about any of them. Nutten bad to say about my TC's they have shot well once i got things sorted out. Nutten has fell off or tore up, spect they will last rest of my life.

For me, it is simple. I prefer to buy something made in the USA. However, if prefer a foreign product over a domestic one for reasons OTHER THAN price (quality, features, function, feel, etc), I have NO problem buying it. Those are the things that inspire real innovation and competition. All other things being equal, I REFUSE to purchase a foreign item just because it is cheaper.

I have a TC Firehawk inline, #11 percussion cap with a trigger as good as any centerfire rifle I own. Took about 15 minutes to work up a load. It's a tack driver, 92 grains of Pyrodex select/TC .240gr XTP produces a 100 yard 3 shot group I can cover with a .25cent coin, consistently for the last 18 yrs. I didn't like the exposed action to the weather, so I purchased a CVA Kodiak Pro 209, and a year later still can't get it to group better than 4" (with an occasional flyer) at a 100 yards. So at this point, I'm partial to TC's. Maybe if I free float the barrel on the CVA, it'll shoot better?

One of the things that is important to me in the sporting goods business is whether a company actualy makes what they sell. That is a major difference between TC and CVA. TC is actually a mfr. who makes most of their products(not all). CVA is a trade name who does not make their products, they buy them from someone else. Therre are alot of trade name companies in the sporting goods industry. But few at the top end as far as quality goes. One of the few at the top end in firearms is Browning firearms.

You see alot of this in scope companies. That is why there are so many different scopes out there. There are very few scope mfrs., but they sell to alot of trade name or retail companies.

The reason I do not like trade name companies is because there is another company involved that has to make a profit. So you have The actual mfr. of a CVA rifle, then you have CVA, then you have the distributor, then you have the retailer. So there are four entities that need to make a profit, instead of three. So in general(not specifically CVA) the product is not of the same quality. It has to have a lower mfr. cost because of the extra entitiy in the profit chain.

Now in defense of trade names. Those profit margins can be slimmer because of "economies of scale" of the mfr. The mfr. makes so many that they can accept less profit.

Personally I prefer the TC products over CVA. I believe TC offers more variety, and better firearms.

It seems in this internet day that the only important part of a firearm is how "itty bitty" of a group it can shoot. Personally I think there are many more features involved in whether a firearm is superior or not. It is these extra things where I think CVA lacks. Such as a quality stock, or trigger. Proper balance. And other things.

I have seen alot of people trade a CVA to get a TC. I can't ever remember a person trading a TC to get a CVA?? Tom.

i disagree on the stock comment. CVA's stocks are a heck of a lot better quality than the TC offers. How many posts here about omega stocks wiggling around needing bedded and such?

I remember on my Winchester X-150 i could put that stock across my knee and bend with all my strength and i could get darn little movement out of it.

Sure CVA's are made in spain but they also offer many jobs in the US. Guys down at the CS depot that fill your orders, take care of CS / repair work, Sponsored TV show hosts, Durasight "US MADE", The often talked down on AMERICAN MADE Powerbelt Bullets, Konus scopes is another one that CVA brought out into the light. I never heard of Konus and they've been in business since the 1970's. Quake Industries is another. Along with CVA now supporting Hodgdon " IMR actually" Powders. Heck Birchwood Casey even makes products for CVA. Another American made product by Ultra Coatings, You got it, CVA will be carrying their stuff.

Tom, i Sold a TC omega for a CVA Optima. Then traded the Optima for a cabelas hawken and then traded the hawken for a CVA Plainsman. LOL its amazing how you can keep trading one gun in for another.

I believe that CVA stocks NOW are good. But I have to say that my 6 or 7 year old Hunterbolt was not the greatest. I had to free-float the barrel and glass-bed the action to get good accuracy. Once I did that, it became a very accurate rifle (although the trigger still sucks). The NEW CVA's are of much higher quality IMO than the ones from even a few years ago. I have 2 CVA's and like them both.

As for where things are made, I do prefer to buy American made. But only if it is good quality and affordable. In the past because of a small budget, I was forced to buy "affordable" which meant "CVA". Now that I have more wiggle room in the budget, I would love to try out a Knight. I'm not a huge fan of TC's inlines (don't fit me, or too dam expensive), but when I buy a sidelock, I'll definetly be looking at a TC Renegade or Hawken.

It is unfortunate but a lot of people purchase on price alone. I will be honest, that is the first thing I look at when gun shopping. And in that respect, CVA was capturing the market. They produced a good rifle at a reasonable price. Are CVA rifles good quality? Well I am not an engineer but I am a shooter. My CVA shoots good. But the stock to barrel/hardware fit is terrible. Still I paid $89.00 for the thing. And it really will shoot well.

My T/C Inline is a Black Diamond XR. It is just a well made rifle. Excellent stock to barrel fit. Free floating barrel, excellent trigger, top of the line barrel,and I would be hard pressed to find a better shooter. BUT it cost a lot more then $89.00

As for why one business was sold or plants moved. For instance, Knight was sold and so was T/C a while back to Smith & Wesson. Now T/C is moving their plant operations. That unfortunately is simple economics and nothing more. In order to stay competitive, T/C has to cut costs. If they can not cut costs then its cut corners. Their move is to centralize their operations. Move to a larger plant. And I am sure the dismissal of some employees is also a factor. Fire employees, cut maintenance on a second plant, and that is a savings.

CVA or BPI for what it is worth worked that way for years. They imported barrels and parts much cheaper then they could produce them in the United States. And for a while they suffered some sales because of that, but now they are moving in the high end products more. And it is working for them. Their Accura, Kodiak, Optima and such with the top quality barrels is making them accepted again.