TC vs CVA, US vs foreign. friendly debate
 

I guess I am going to open up an hornets nest on this. not my style but I feel I should post this.

all this debate on us vs foreign. focuses on TC VS CVA right now. they are the big two muzzleloader companies at the time.

(note: all numbers are just my guess, no research)
CVA, made in spain. employing 250 to 500 people in that factory.

they are moving to an larger building for distributing there goods in GA., I don't remember reading any where they where laying people off. this also could mean they could be adding jobs (American jobs)

yes it would be nice if they moved the factory over here.

TC (S&W sub) moving to the springfield factory. closing the tc factory, laying off people, they offered some transfers but in fact people are losing jobs. the long run could also add jobs.

little food for thought

i would rather buy a made in the USA product if the price is not too high and the gun is of good quality.

Beginning in about 2000 i bought three new CVA guns; a StagHorn, a Mag Hunter and another one that was soon given to my son. The stocks on the remaining guns were flimsy and it was necessary to bed the actions and float the barrels for consistent accuracy.

My TC Black Diamond gun is the older one with the 22" barrel: It was bought new within the past two years. i did have to smooth out a very rough bore; otherwise it has been a trouble free gun since day one. The blue job on that gun is much better than that on my Encore.

Then there is my Encore:

1. The insert fell out of the front sight the first day at the range
2. The ramrod thimbles were loose from day one: They bottomed out in the screw holes. The rep at TC was not interested in fixing that so i ground the screws down shorter and re-installed them.
3. The hinge pin was grossly out of round. Bought a new one from Bellms.
4. Had misfires with the centerfire rifle barrels with the hammer extension installed. Bought a stronger hammer spring from Bellms.
5. The bore was very rough and was nearly impossible to load. Worked the bore over using jewelers rouge.
6. The stock was loose. Tightened the stock.
7. Because of the ejector design, the gun had to be taken apart in order to remove the breech plug. Not to worry, those fine marketeers at TC had a spiffy new hinged ejector for $17.99 plus shipping. Bought the spiffy new TC ejector.

That gun is just great now and i hunt with it a lot.

I own 4 TC ML's all perc. 3 caplocks & 1 Blk Dia inline. Never owned a CVA or Traditions nor Lyman or any other. I can't say nutten bad about any of them. Nutten bad to say about my TC's they have shot well once i got things sorted out. Nutten has fell off or tore up, spect they will last rest of my life.

For me, it is simple. I prefer to buy something made in the USA. However, if prefer a foreign product over a domestic one for reasons OTHER THAN price (quality, features, function, feel, etc), I have NO problem buying it. Those are the things that inspire real innovation and competition. All other things being equal, I REFUSE to purchase a foreign item just because it is cheaper.

I have a TC Firehawk inline, #11 percussion cap with a trigger as good as any centerfire rifle I own. Took about 15 minutes to work up a load. It's a tack driver, 92 grains of Pyrodex select/TC .240gr XTP produces a 100 yard 3 shot group I can cover with a .25cent coin, consistently for the last 18 yrs. I didn't like the exposed action to the weather, so I purchased a CVA Kodiak Pro 209, and a year later still can't get it to group better than 4" (with an occasional flyer) at a 100 yards. So at this point, I'm partial to TC's. Maybe if I free float the barrel on the CVA, it'll shoot better?

One of the things that is important to me in the sporting goods business is whether a company actualy makes what they sell. That is a major difference between TC and CVA. TC is actually a mfr. who makes most of their products(not all). CVA is a trade name who does not make their products, they buy them from someone else. Therre are alot of trade name companies in the sporting goods industry. But few at the top end as far as quality goes. One of the few at the top end in firearms is Browning firearms.

You see alot of this in scope companies. That is why there are so many different scopes out there. There are very few scope mfrs., but they sell to alot of trade name or retail companies.

The reason I do not like trade name companies is because there is another company involved that has to make a profit. So you have The actual mfr. of a CVA rifle, then you have CVA, then you have the distributor, then you have the retailer. So there are four entities that need to make a profit, instead of three. So in general(not specifically CVA) the product is not of the same quality. It has to have a lower mfr. cost because of the extra entitiy in the profit chain.

Now in defense of trade names. Those profit margins can be slimmer because of "economies of scale" of the mfr. The mfr. makes so many that they can accept less profit.

Personally I prefer the TC products over CVA. I believe TC offers more variety, and better firearms.

It seems in this internet day that the only important part of a firearm is how "itty bitty" of a group it can shoot. Personally I think there are many more features involved in whether a firearm is superior or not. It is these extra things where I think CVA lacks. Such as a quality stock, or trigger. Proper balance. And other things.

I have seen alot of people trade a CVA to get a TC. I can't ever remember a person trading a TC to get a CVA?? Tom.

i disagree on the stock comment. CVA's stocks are a heck of a lot better quality than the TC offers. How many posts here about omega stocks wiggling around needing bedded and such?

I remember on my Winchester X-150 i could put that stock across my knee and bend with all my strength and i could get darn little movement out of it.

Sure CVA's are made in spain but they also offer many jobs in the US. Guys down at the CS depot that fill your orders, take care of CS / repair work, Sponsored TV show hosts, Durasight "US MADE", The often talked down on AMERICAN MADE Powerbelt Bullets, Konus scopes is another one that CVA brought out into the light. I never heard of Konus and they've been in business since the 1970's. Quake Industries is another. Along with CVA now supporting Hodgdon " IMR actually" Powders. Heck Birchwood Casey even makes products for CVA. Another American made product by Ultra Coatings, You got it, CVA will be carrying their stuff.

Tom, i Sold a TC omega for a CVA Optima. Then traded the Optima for a cabelas hawken and then traded the hawken for a CVA Plainsman. LOL its amazing how you can keep trading one gun in for another.

I believe that CVA stocks NOW are good. But I have to say that my 6 or 7 year old Hunterbolt was not the greatest. I had to free-float the barrel and glass-bed the action to get good accuracy. Once I did that, it became a very accurate rifle (although the trigger still sucks). The NEW CVA's are of much higher quality IMO than the ones from even a few years ago. I have 2 CVA's and like them both.

As for where things are made, I do prefer to buy American made. But only if it is good quality and affordable. In the past because of a small budget, I was forced to buy "affordable" which meant "CVA". Now that I have more wiggle room in the budget, I would love to try out a Knight. I'm not a huge fan of TC's inlines (don't fit me, or too dam expensive), but when I buy a sidelock, I'll definetly be looking at a TC Renegade or Hawken.

It is unfortunate but a lot of people purchase on price alone. I will be honest, that is the first thing I look at when gun shopping. And in that respect, CVA was capturing the market. They produced a good rifle at a reasonable price. Are CVA rifles good quality? Well I am not an engineer but I am a shooter. My CVA shoots good. But the stock to barrel/hardware fit is terrible. Still I paid $89.00 for the thing. And it really will shoot well.

My T/C Inline is a Black Diamond XR. It is just a well made rifle. Excellent stock to barrel fit. Free floating barrel, excellent trigger, top of the line barrel,and I would be hard pressed to find a better shooter. BUT it cost a lot more then $89.00

As for why one business was sold or plants moved. For instance, Knight was sold and so was T/C a while back to Smith & Wesson. Now T/C is moving their plant operations. That unfortunately is simple economics and nothing more. In order to stay competitive, T/C has to cut costs. If they can not cut costs then its cut corners. Their move is to centralize their operations. Move to a larger plant. And I am sure the dismissal of some employees is also a factor. Fire employees, cut maintenance on a second plant, and that is a savings.

CVA or BPI for what it is worth worked that way for years. They imported barrels and parts much cheaper then they could produce them in the United States. And for a while they suffered some sales because of that, but now they are moving in the high end products more. And it is working for them. Their Accura, Kodiak, Optima and such with the top quality barrels is making them accepted again.

The only point I was trying to make is that it is not "their product", CVA that is. They did not produce anything-they merely imported a product. That is what I have a problem with.

I am not a pro TC person. Some of you guys actually know that I am a Knight rifle person. I much prefer the Knight's over any of them. Either TC or CVA.

The real problem CVA has is one of the same problems Savage rifles has. Once a person gets a bad taste in their mouth they are unlikely to try it again. And Savage and CVA sold junk for so long that alot of guys are just afraid to give them another try. And since CVA really has no skin in the game because they have no mfr. costs-that alows them to always put profit ahead of quality. Just my opinion.

Mountain Devil I read alot of what you write. And I know you really like CVA. Personally I do not know who you are. But I really do believe that somehow you have some "skin in the game" when it comes to CVA. Tom.

corey012778

So Corey what if CVA would build those rifles here in the States using our materials and our labor to make the materials or labor to build the rifles and still use the same distribution network. Can you see how that might increase the jobs in the US.

All of this would create more US jobs, but then CVA probably would not be able to under-cut other manufactures they way they can now. Everybody might be on equal footing...

Imagine that...

I have spent my entire life in sales. Only real job(except in college) I ever had. I sold alot of products, many of them foreign. Including a whole bunch of CVA products.

Maybe I just saw the light. I do not know. All I know is I look at how much money we owe China and other countries with our national debt. And maybe I had an epiphany. I do not know what it is, but I committed myself to only buying US products whenever I can from now on. Call me naive-I don't care. But that is how I am going to guide all my purchases from here on out. I may be a little late to this game, but I have arrived now.

Mountain Devil I am not trying to defend the cheap Omega stocks either. Personally I think all the mfrs. are putting out crap with their so called "synthetic stocks". I much prefer laminate or Walnut. None of that crap synthetic for me. Tom.

i too wish for a better quality Syn. stock. But everyone these days wants a light rifle so, theres only so much you can do. I dont think fiberglass would be lighter.

yes I see your point but with all the american know how. you think tc could produce high quantity products at more reasonable prices. those of us, who are on tight budgets can't see paying what TC wants for most of there products.

remember what some see as reasonable defers from what others see as reasonable.

two reasons I did not bring knight into this, one knight is not back on the market yet, two I like knight too.

corey012778

You are absolutely correct, but because of our standard of living in the US - the production of materials cost more as well as the building. The biggest part of this is this cost in labor in the US.

But, then again if were are willing to lower the cost of living we could make things less expensively. Think you might get the unions to go along with that. Now think about this - if all or a good portion if your money is going across the water to a foreign country instead of being spent here, wages here would have to be increased again to make up for that short fall to maintain the cost of living.

It is a very bad spiral and I do not think we will ever get out of it. I think the current dollar is worth less than 60 cents today. Remember when a dollar would get you something.. In 71 when I bough this house it was worth $25,000 today and the house has not changed that much except for getting a lot older it is worth $130,000. It really is worth no more today than it was then - it is just the dollar is that much more worthless - why because we keep sending money across the water and barrowing to make ends meet.

American quality has suffered in the same way... to be able to meet foreign goods price we have to lower the quality of the gods we produce.

Again it is a terrible circle... eventually I expect CVA to run all american ML's out of the market except for specialized low end ML and High end select ML's

Actaully I expect a lot of American products to disapper in favor of foreign goods - along with the jobs that it took to produce American goods.

More and more middle class Americans will be in the unemployed market and struggling to make ends meet.... In America the rich get richer and the rest of go down the tubes...

What it comes down to are you willing to work for $1 and hour and that may generous...

who knows, sabotloader, I think the whole S&W brand is a little high. guess I am cheap, and think the made in America may add a few extra bucks alone. no overseas transporting fees, and no time to clear customs. time is money in any business.


to tell the truth, I like TC's accessories. 95% of my loading tips, powder measures, powder spouts, and ram rods are tc.

I am not two faced. I just think the rifle prices are little high.
I am cheap on center fire rifle and pistols too.

corey012778

Did you see that Cabelas has Omega Z5's on sale for $249

only been looking in the traditional area looking for kits for an friend of mine.

when I go looking for something new for me, hope they have good deals

I think I am leaning to the knight roll block (or back as I miss type it) I found at an farm store for $264.

I shoot a TC Pro Hunter and it is as fine of a gun as I have ever shot.

Corey if you want to try an interesting Knight, they have Visions on sale too for $200 and they are built like a tank. $219 for stainless.

don't have the funds yet. after the first of the year. if the deal holds out with my wife.

treat her nicely, buy her flowers and some hoppes #9 perfume and she will stick to her end of the bargain.

After reading this I remembered some TC Accessories I bought last year at Wal-Mart......as I looked over the Packaging I noticed something on the back of them that struck my eye,,,,,,Made In CHINA! Have Pics to Prove it. That just go's to show ya NOT every Good Old you thought was Made in USA Product is Made in USA, sure some stuff is but not all of there stuff. DAMN CHINESSE! So reguardless if CVA is made in Spain or wherever, TC is also Prostituting there Supplies and Parts out of the Good OL USA. It's SAD but Nothing is as everyone thinks it is.
(BP)

In Canada, all firearms are imports, but I do like supporting my neighbors. I try and buy the "most local" as i can, providing the quality is there!

Whether it is from China, USA or Timbuktu, it really does not matter. We all like to buy American. Not meaning to demean on other countries mind you. We like American rifles, cars, TVs, you name it. The trouble is America has outsourced itself. They did it for profit and to be competitive in the worlds market.

I could care less who shoots what or where it came from. All I concern myself with is, the product does not hurt anyone, the person that owns it is satisfied with the purchase, and that they do not insist their selections on me or anyone else. We all have rifles, or cars, trucks in my case, that we are proud of. While we can tout the good points of the things we own or use, we should never demand that they are the best because we say so. Further, it is wrong to imply that anyone that does not use them is mistaken because of it.

Just keep these great forum reports of products and experiences coming in like you have been. Tell me of what this product did for you that you like or better yet, dislike. Tell me why you feel I might benefit from it. And then I will decide for myself.

This is a great forum. All the members here I have really grown to respect and trust. Many I consider a friend, though I have never personally met them. For that I thank you.

An amusing joke my father likes to tell me.. "there are two people in the world I trust. That would be me, and you. And to be honest, I am not to sure about you."

+ 1 You tell it Brother :rock:

+1
What Cayugad said.

Was watching the outdoor channel this morning while getting my shooting stuff ready.

Most like to claim TC's prices are high due to the being made in american, not in some other country where prices are kept low and people are paid little. Although no one knows the real wages they make.

My take, Someones gotta pay for that TV Sponsorship and Ad's. That'd be you, the buyer helping pay off that stuff on tv.

Myself, i try to buy things made in USA. This includes hand tools, power tools, shoes , shirts, rifles, coats etc. My first muzzle loader was an Omega. At the time, what i had decided to purchase, was a Triumph, but i couldn't get my face low enough on the comb, to see the sights. Here we must use iron sights during muzzle loader season. The Omega worked great. During the off season i scoped it, so i could see the sights, so i could make more accurate loads. When i did that, i noticed it was some difficult to prime the Omega with a scope mounted. I just wanted to give a break action a try. Ruling out the Omega, the next best thing was the Accura.

I had to struggle to purchase the Accura, because it wasn't made in USA. It didn't seem i had much choice. I find the Accura to be clunky, but it is accurate. As time went by, i found i didn't want to use my center fire rifle any more. So, when Cabela's put the Triumph on sale for $250, i jumped on it, because i would scope it to use in our rifle season. Then i purchased another Omega to scope, and use during our rifle season. All three of these USA made rifle, have better trigger, than the Accura. All are nice rifle, but then again, so is the Accura.

Now, i have made one more step to the 'dark side'. I puchased the V2.

It has become easier for me to purchase items not made in the USA. Reason being, there are so many things so difficult to find USA made. I recently purchased a power tool that i didn't really need, because it was made in USA, and it seemed the model was being replaced by an identical tool made over seas. It seemed, this would be my last chance to own that tool made in USA.

What makes me kinda sad, is both them Accura seem to be more accurate than my rifles made in USA. My USA made rifles, carry better, and have better triggers, and are more comfortable to me when 'thrown' to the shoulder. I just like them USA rifles, is all. A troublesome thing to me, the QRBP is a paradigm changing breech plug, and here it is, mounted in a foreign rifle.

The Foreign Countries Have to Compete with the USA, and thus doiung so have to make a Product that is Better and also Cheaper to assemble so we will Purchase them. I also LOVE the American Made Products. But when one makes one better elsewhere for a much cheaper price, guess who Wins.
Also American Made has Changed over the Years, Years ago Americans put there Heart and Soul into what they Made, they were Proud to make it. now there more worried about How Much Money they make, or what benefits there intitled to than what the finished product is like.
I could bet Many on here Own Forign Cars and Trucks, but Boast about there American Made MLer and how it's the Best because it's made in USA.
Again I would Buy ONLY American as I hate to make the Lesser Countries Economy better than our's. But untill the Almight Dollar has less of a effect on our Workers than the Product they make I'll buy and use what's best for me.
ALL of our Homes are FULL of Forigne Products, untill we ALL have ALL American Made in ALL of our Homes, then none of us should say one is better than the other.
But I'll still stick with My FORD's, there at least Trying to be the Best and be True American with a Great American Made Product, No Bailout's!
(BP)

You pull the 'Heater' or other parts off of that 'FORD' and you will see made in Canada on them lol.

LOL funny part is, If you take a look at my 92 isuzu rodeo, All engine parts are marked GM and the electroics along with parts are stamped, Made in USA :rock:

Oh NO, Not You Again! Yea your right though, but I'd rather have Made In Canada on them then Made in China. Other than that, you win. Yea FORD has Assembly Plants in Canada but Not in MEXICO like CHEVY's going to Build.
(BP)

I recently bought a new truck. Looked at Fords and according to the sticker it was made with only 50% American and Canadian parts. The "foreign" truck I bought had 70%. Made in America does not mean the samething it did back in 1980. At least not to me. MY 2 cents.

Much has changed in the hunting world over the last 40 or 50 years. Hunting seasons have become broader from Deer, duck, small game ---> spring turkey, spring goose, Archery deer, duck, small game, muzzleloader, deer, late archery, late muzzleloader, etc.

I contend that while the percentage of disposable income devoted to hunting gear the average participant spends hasn't changed all that much, the spectrum of discipline specific gear has exploded! No-tox shot for waterfowl, special turkey guns, and inline muzzleloaders didn't exist even 30 years ago... On top of all that, add in the gear from deer calls to the 30 different camo patterns to laser rangefinders and now hunting crossbows, that didn't exist in 1980 when I started hunting.

I mention this because it's important to understand where in the outdoor spectrum muzzleloaders exist. I put forth the "average" (-1 to +1 SD) hunter buys his muzzleloader simply as an instrument to tag a deer a week or two before rifle season. He's not a gun crank( like most here) per se, (s)he is just after another crack at the deer (often before general firearms season). When taken in total, he's looking to spend less(% of income) on a gun than ever before. Where he might have paid 2 weeks wages for a model 700 "deer rifle", scope, and mounts in 1980, he now has less than 2 days wages in his MLer.

Given the above, The bulk of the market has become the low to middle price muzzleloaders. It is similar to 1987 when, if you were fiscally challenged, but wanted a new car, you could buy a brand new Hyundai excel for $2999, lower price imports always flood the shallow end of the pool. Thankfully, advances in technology, have made the shallow end less murky (no more CVA pipe bombs). I bet Traditions and CVA sell 10 $149 blister pack, pellet eater guns to every one $400 rifle that they, T/C, or Knight sells.

However, when you get to $400 rifles, the "value advantage" that the imports enjoy in the $149 slot, disappears.

YMMV

I like American made muzzleloaders best. I have bought and sold a fair number of them and the guns that stay are always American made. Tc, Knight, White appeal to me, they always seem to shoot well and are nice looking. I have only two tc's, a renegade and a scout but I can't think of a single cva that I would trade either one of them for.

Frontier nailed it. Just watch the shows magazines etc, TC has to pay Shockey some how. Now grated CVA is following suit and they are plastered everywhere as well. I shoot Traditions and their quality has come a long way, most of their guns are equavilent to TC and CVA prices. It seems all (TC, CVA, and Traditions) companies have realized the importance of better barrels and quality. CVA, Traditions etc seem to be chasing TC, Knight in quality. They all offer models in some form of a better barrel and nicly fit stocks, triggers etc., which is a big change, old CVA, old Traditions did not have this luxury. It is just my opinion but price will always be the reason one buys a gun. If I have the cash for a gun I want now and 2 new guns are offered having both a well built barrel and are built solid I'd take what I could afford which for me would be the cheaper. We all have our spending means and by no way would I ever bash anyone who shoots a less expensive gun than I have. I do not shoot the expensive guns some of you can afford. It really does not matter what you shoot as long as you take game ethically on a consistent basis and have fun shooting. Keep in mind both CVA and Traditions do employ Americans as well as TC and Knight. With so many different shooters and companies it is downright crazy to pick just one gun, that is why we all have several:biggrin: What a great time to be a blackpowder muzzy junkie.:happy0001: Enjoy whatever you shoot fellas and enjoy that we are free to do such.

I was at an gunshop, trying to say out of trouble, (not buying anything). looked at the cva stuff (not guns). looked at 6. 1 powder flask made in taiwan or india, 1 was an old product before the "made in" was inforced. 4 items had the american flag waving in the corner.

note all the tc items had that as well.

Being in a gun shop to stay out of trouble, man gunshops are nothing but trouble, I always say I am not going to buy a gun but look around, one always finds it way home.:s2: