Help...T/C Breakage
10-10-2009, 12:52 PM
#12
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hayes, Va.
Posts: 2,332
I still say quit using the make believe stuff and go with the real BP. You end up with good powder and never a question of ignition.
10-10-2009, 02:46 PM
#13
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
MD
Maybe if you knew more about what you might be talking about you could understand.
It is not the rating of the rifle that is the problem, you can shoot 120 grain of T7 in the barrel if you like. But again it is not the rating.... it the amount blow-bac pressure coming back through the nipple - that is what is casuing the problem. He could shoot a light 200 grain bullet and probably would not have a problem at all as the bullet would move easier and farther up the barrel increasing bore volume.
Most any of the older open breech type rifles were meant to shoot with a number 11 or a Musket cap. The advent of the 209 made a lot manufactures add that type of ignition to their list of accessories. Even the Bighorn, which is rated at 150 grains of T7 will blowback the primer and hammer when shooting a 209.
T7-3f which is much finer than 2f and thought to be 10% stronger than 2f so therefore 25% stronger than any of the Pyro's creates a problem in the older guns that try to use a 209 ignition.
T7-3f ignites and reaches peak pressure much faster than 2f in fact so fast the ability of the bore to increase the volume of gas it can contain, especially when shooting a 300 grain bullet is hampered. The pressure has to go someplace and the easiest place to go is back out the nipple - hence the blow-bac and even the pushing the hammer back to the firing position.
The TC Black Diamond is a very good old technology gun and will probably work just fine with 100 grains of T7-2f or any of the slower buring less pressure creating Pyros.
Hope this makes some sense to those that understand.
and I think Cayugad also suggested a new nipple - mitchmtm1 your current 209 nipple might be eroded. Have you looked at the hammer spring, BP residue can eat a spring fairly easily if it has not been cleaned well and it might be a bit weak.
I had the same problem in my White U-mag when shooting 100 grains of BH-209 from it. The primer blew out of the nipple, pushed the hammer back and reputered the primer- i found the anvil on the floor of the breech.
90gr 3f T7 is to hot for the black diamond? give me a break! even my traditions rates 3f much higher than that.
It is not the rating of the rifle that is the problem, you can shoot 120 grain of T7 in the barrel if you like. But again it is not the rating.... it the amount blow-bac pressure coming back through the nipple - that is what is casuing the problem. He could shoot a light 200 grain bullet and probably would not have a problem at all as the bullet would move easier and farther up the barrel increasing bore volume.
Most any of the older open breech type rifles were meant to shoot with a number 11 or a Musket cap. The advent of the 209 made a lot manufactures add that type of ignition to their list of accessories. Even the Bighorn, which is rated at 150 grains of T7 will blowback the primer and hammer when shooting a 209.
T7-3f which is much finer than 2f and thought to be 10% stronger than 2f so therefore 25% stronger than any of the Pyro's creates a problem in the older guns that try to use a 209 ignition.
T7-3f ignites and reaches peak pressure much faster than 2f in fact so fast the ability of the bore to increase the volume of gas it can contain, especially when shooting a 300 grain bullet is hampered. The pressure has to go someplace and the easiest place to go is back out the nipple - hence the blow-bac and even the pushing the hammer back to the firing position.
The TC Black Diamond is a very good old technology gun and will probably work just fine with 100 grains of T7-2f or any of the slower buring less pressure creating Pyros.
Hope this makes some sense to those that understand.
and I think Cayugad also suggested a new nipple - mitchmtm1 your current 209 nipple might be eroded. Have you looked at the hammer spring, BP residue can eat a spring fairly easily if it has not been cleaned well and it might be a bit weak.
I had the same problem in my White U-mag when shooting 100 grains of BH-209 from it. The primer blew out of the nipple, pushed the hammer back and reputered the primer- i found the anvil on the floor of the breech.
Last edited by sabotloader; 10-10-2009 at 02:48 PM.
10-10-2009, 02:56 PM
#14
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Boncarbo,Colorado
Posts: 9,186
So if I ( or anyone else) were to load up 90gr 3f T7 in a black diamond, we'd all expect the same thing to happen? My traditions is rated for 130gr T7 loose and it to uses that same primer spring. Should i expect the same thing to happen on that rifle?
10-10-2009, 04:07 PM
#15
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
MountainDevil54
Depends on which tradition it might be and what the bolt or hammer design might be? But if you shoot t7-3f and a 300 grain bullet in an older falling hammer style gun you could expect excessive blow-bac... It is simple math vs older designed guns.... Remember these guns were being built before T7 even made it on the market.
The question is do you understand why T7-3f builds a higher pressure quicker than 2f in a given volume space?
I can get the same thing in my White with a heavy bullet and T7-3f or even the Remington with a Remington Conversion - so are those guns bad also?
One further point if you go back and read Cayugad's post you would find that the retaining spring is a concern with the BD. Even when I bought my CVA Firebold, CVA recommended purchasing a 5 pack of retaining springs for the nipple. it can be a problem in older guns...
Depends on which tradition it might be and what the bolt or hammer design might be? But if you shoot t7-3f and a 300 grain bullet in an older falling hammer style gun you could expect excessive blow-bac... It is simple math vs older designed guns.... Remember these guns were being built before T7 even made it on the market.
The question is do you understand why T7-3f builds a higher pressure quicker than 2f in a given volume space?
I can get the same thing in my White with a heavy bullet and T7-3f or even the Remington with a Remington Conversion - so are those guns bad also?
One further point if you go back and read Cayugad's post you would find that the retaining spring is a concern with the BD. Even when I bought my CVA Firebold, CVA recommended purchasing a 5 pack of retaining springs for the nipple. it can be a problem in older guns...
Last edited by sabotloader; 10-10-2009 at 04:10 PM.
10-10-2009, 05:44 PM
#16
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 310
Yep that was me out thinking myself. I was thinking that in a short of barrel the faster powder would give me better velocity. Stupid bp rookie.
and I think Cayugad also suggested a new nipple - mitchmtm1 your current 209 nipple might be eroded. Have you looked at the hammer spring, BP residue can eat a spring fairly easily if it has not been cleaned well and it might be a bit weak.
Thanks everyone for the help and info.
Mitch
10-10-2009, 05:58 PM
#17
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
mitchmtm1
The thought is/was correct... and if you reduce your projectile to 240/250 grains or even 200 - it might serve you really well.
Very Good!
I can not remember what that nipple really looks like... I know the #11 and Musket Nipple for the BD were both what TC calls a flame thrower nipple, but I do not remember if the 209 has a long instert...
The nipple is/should be OK you just have to replace the retainer spring - correct?
I have extra CVA springs that might work, but you should be able to get some from TC...
Do you have a replacement spring?
I did a little edit work on your picture and as I look at it - the nipple is OK but the spring needs to be replaced.
mike
Yep that was me out thinking myself. I was thinking that in a short of barrel the faster powder would give me better velocity. Stupid bp rookie.
Everything looks like new on the rifle (except the nipple now) and the spring is in perfect condition.
I can not remember what that nipple really looks like... I know the #11 and Musket Nipple for the BD were both what TC calls a flame thrower nipple, but I do not remember if the 209 has a long instert...
The nipple is/should be OK you just have to replace the retainer spring - correct?
I have extra CVA springs that might work, but you should be able to get some from TC...
Do you have a replacement spring?
I did a little edit work on your picture and as I look at it - the nipple is OK but the spring needs to be replaced.
mike
Last edited by sabotloader; 10-10-2009 at 06:06 PM.
10-10-2009, 06:18 PM
#18
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 310
Yep the nipple is perfect it shined up really well...but I don't think that tc sells just the springs. You have to buy a new primer adapter.
https://secure.tcarms.com//store/209...t-no-7805.html
https://secure.tcarms.com//store/209...t-no-7805.html
10-10-2009, 07:51 PM
#19
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
mitchmtm1
Do me a favor if you can... call TC - customer support and tell them that you have a nipple with a broken retainer spring and ask them if they can send you a couple. Remember they have a life time warranty on thier guns they might just send you the rings... Again call them on the phone if you can
603-332-2333
let me know...
Do me a favor if you can... call TC - customer support and tell them that you have a nipple with a broken retainer spring and ask them if they can send you a couple. Remember they have a life time warranty on thier guns they might just send you the rings... Again call them on the phone if you can
603-332-2333
let me know...