Ever Use Harvester Hard Cast Bullets?
11-05-2009, 05:16 PM
#12
Spike
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 8
Screwbolts, your answer contained exactly the info. I was looking for...thanks. I tried the smooth green Harvester sabots that comes with the 280 gr. 44 cal bullets, but they are extremely hard to get down my bore. Then I tried the crushed-rib green Harvester sabots for 44 cal. bullets and they were too easy to push down. So I tried wrapping the bullet in paper before inserting in the sabot and that worked but it's a picky process.
I've read that what you said is correct -- the thinner the sabot, the more accurate the load is likely to be. So I'll try the 280 gr. (44 cal) Harvester hard-cast in a sabot meant for 45 cal bullets by knurling the 280's up to a tight fit. Great idea.
I like the Harvester hard cast bullet approach because even if the shot angle isn't just right, the penetration is there regardless. To put icing on the cake for me is that they work best with light powder loads and that is means less recoil which is what I'm after.
The larger meplat on the 280 gr. Harvester hard-cast should be more effective on game than the smaller meplat of their 330 grainer, right? I say that because a wider meplat puts more of the bullet's weight forward and that makes for more stability on impact from what I read. Plus the lighter bullet will yield lower recoil. So if I can make the 280 work, that's my choice. But I'll try both weights and see which gives best accuracy with 75 to 80 grains of BH209.
About SR 4759: I'd use it instead of 209 if it were legal in MI for the zone I hunt. I notice that 209 puts out much less smoke than 777, etc. (hmm, since I have some old 4759 laying around I wonder if a conservation officer would notice if I used 4759 instead)
I see what you mean about barrel length, but don't think it ought to be that way in that the forward end of the breech plug is akin to the bolt face on a cartridge rifle because that's where the powder/bullet column starts for both systems. Well, OK, the head of the brass cartridge case is in there too, but that's not much more. The 22" barrel on my Model 70 Winchester 7-08 measures 21 and 7/8" and that's virtually the same as the advertised length of 22". Evidently that's not the way it is with muzzle loaders, but seems to me it ought to be.
Thanks again for all your good information.
I've read that what you said is correct -- the thinner the sabot, the more accurate the load is likely to be. So I'll try the 280 gr. (44 cal) Harvester hard-cast in a sabot meant for 45 cal bullets by knurling the 280's up to a tight fit. Great idea.
I like the Harvester hard cast bullet approach because even if the shot angle isn't just right, the penetration is there regardless. To put icing on the cake for me is that they work best with light powder loads and that is means less recoil which is what I'm after.
The larger meplat on the 280 gr. Harvester hard-cast should be more effective on game than the smaller meplat of their 330 grainer, right? I say that because a wider meplat puts more of the bullet's weight forward and that makes for more stability on impact from what I read. Plus the lighter bullet will yield lower recoil. So if I can make the 280 work, that's my choice. But I'll try both weights and see which gives best accuracy with 75 to 80 grains of BH209.
About SR 4759: I'd use it instead of 209 if it were legal in MI for the zone I hunt. I notice that 209 puts out much less smoke than 777, etc. (hmm, since I have some old 4759 laying around I wonder if a conservation officer would notice if I used 4759 instead)
I see what you mean about barrel length, but don't think it ought to be that way in that the forward end of the breech plug is akin to the bolt face on a cartridge rifle because that's where the powder/bullet column starts for both systems. Well, OK, the head of the brass cartridge case is in there too, but that's not much more. The 22" barrel on my Model 70 Winchester 7-08 measures 21 and 7/8" and that's virtually the same as the advertised length of 22". Evidently that's not the way it is with muzzle loaders, but seems to me it ought to be.
Thanks again for all your good information.
11-06-2009, 06:06 AM
#13
Fork Horn
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: My Range in Central NY
Posts: 320
[quote=John/MI;3496794]
I've read that what you said is correct -- the thinner the sabot, the more accurate the load is likely to be. So I'll try the 280 gr. (44 cal) Harvester hard-cast in a sabot meant for 45 cal bullets by knurling the 280's up to a tight fit. Great idea.
.
[quote]
John,
I don't think it will be possible to knurl up the 280s to work in the black sabots. You should be able to knurl the 280s (by rolling them between two files or just rolling them under one file on your bench) to fit tighter in the green crusher rib.
I wouldn't hesitate to even try a load of 60 gr. V of BH209 with either the 280 or 330s. Even at 60 gr. of BH209 with either the 280 or 330s you will have the power of a Factory 45/70 round.( the new 45/70 brass will only hold around 55 to 58 gr of Black)
I have some of the store bought 280 hard cast here and I just measured the metplats. the 280s are .330, and my cast 330s are .326. there isn't enough difference to worry about.
I just shot both the 280s and 330 from the same gun and they cronoed within 20 FPS of each other. the 280 read a average of 1537 FPS and the 330s read average of 1517, this was 3 shots each. This was with a load equivalent to 80grV BH209. (30gr of SR4759 ) I shot the 280s in the supplied GCR. I did knurl then for a tighter fit. the 330s were shot as cast in a BSH sabot.
I wouldn't hesitate to load down and see how they shot. I have shot groups down as low as 23 gr of 4759 (1200 FPS) this will shot one ragged hole at 50 yards in my guns. A 280 or 330 gr Boolit at 1200 fps is one hot 44 mag or 45 Colt Load. Would you hesitate to use either for harvesting deer? I have harvested 5 deer between 92 yards and 127 yards with a 178 gr. SWC out of a single shot .357 mag rifle ( I built ) loaded to just 1200 FPS complete pass threws every time and never more than 15 yard staggers.
Ken
I've read that what you said is correct -- the thinner the sabot, the more accurate the load is likely to be. So I'll try the 280 gr. (44 cal) Harvester hard-cast in a sabot meant for 45 cal bullets by knurling the 280's up to a tight fit. Great idea.
.
[quote]
John,
I don't think it will be possible to knurl up the 280s to work in the black sabots. You should be able to knurl the 280s (by rolling them between two files or just rolling them under one file on your bench) to fit tighter in the green crusher rib.
I wouldn't hesitate to even try a load of 60 gr. V of BH209 with either the 280 or 330s. Even at 60 gr. of BH209 with either the 280 or 330s you will have the power of a Factory 45/70 round.( the new 45/70 brass will only hold around 55 to 58 gr of Black)
I have some of the store bought 280 hard cast here and I just measured the metplats. the 280s are .330, and my cast 330s are .326. there isn't enough difference to worry about.
I just shot both the 280s and 330 from the same gun and they cronoed within 20 FPS of each other. the 280 read a average of 1537 FPS and the 330s read average of 1517, this was 3 shots each. This was with a load equivalent to 80grV BH209. (30gr of SR4759 ) I shot the 280s in the supplied GCR. I did knurl then for a tighter fit. the 330s were shot as cast in a BSH sabot.
I wouldn't hesitate to load down and see how they shot. I have shot groups down as low as 23 gr of 4759 (1200 FPS) this will shot one ragged hole at 50 yards in my guns. A 280 or 330 gr Boolit at 1200 fps is one hot 44 mag or 45 Colt Load. Would you hesitate to use either for harvesting deer? I have harvested 5 deer between 92 yards and 127 yards with a 178 gr. SWC out of a single shot .357 mag rifle ( I built ) loaded to just 1200 FPS complete pass threws every time and never more than 15 yard staggers.
Ken
11-06-2009, 09:19 AM
#14
Spike
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 8
Ken, you are a gold mine of useful information for my goal of achieving an adequate deer-killing load with minimum recoil. You are obviously very knowledgeable about hard cast -- makes me want to get a copy of Veral Smith's book. You were also right about knurling the .430 bullets up to fit a .452 sabot...I tried this morning rolling a 280 gr. between 2 files and couldn't even get one up to .435
I have 2 reasons for wanting make the 280's work, if possible:
Supposedly the ratio between recoil reduction and bullet weight is 2 to 1, meaning that the 280 grain is 18% lighter than the 330 grain, so the reduction in recoil should be 36%.
Since a wider meplat is better according to another website, and since Harvester's website shows the 280 gr. meplat at .340 and the 330 gr. meplat at .300 I was going by that. But since reading your post, I measured the ones I have here and while the 280's do measure .340, the 330's measure .325, so the difference is less than Harvester says...though my examples are 8 years old.
I have no bullet-on-deer experience to know if there is any real-world difference between the 2 meplat sizes. The few deer I bagged years ago were with the 330's and they worked just fine.
A 44 mag. out of a rifle is quite effective on deer from what I know, so the lower 209 powder load you suggest is going to be on my 'try it' list. In the end, which ever load/bullet combination gives good accuracy will be the one I use. Thanks for all the info. on the options available.
I'd add that the photo shows you cast some very pretty bullets, if it won't make you vain. Though I also read that swagged bullets can more accurate than cast due to havjng no air pockets in swagged, so maybe vanity won't get the best of you after all. Grin.
John
I have 2 reasons for wanting make the 280's work, if possible:
Supposedly the ratio between recoil reduction and bullet weight is 2 to 1, meaning that the 280 grain is 18% lighter than the 330 grain, so the reduction in recoil should be 36%.
Since a wider meplat is better according to another website, and since Harvester's website shows the 280 gr. meplat at .340 and the 330 gr. meplat at .300 I was going by that. But since reading your post, I measured the ones I have here and while the 280's do measure .340, the 330's measure .325, so the difference is less than Harvester says...though my examples are 8 years old.
I have no bullet-on-deer experience to know if there is any real-world difference between the 2 meplat sizes. The few deer I bagged years ago were with the 330's and they worked just fine.
A 44 mag. out of a rifle is quite effective on deer from what I know, so the lower 209 powder load you suggest is going to be on my 'try it' list. In the end, which ever load/bullet combination gives good accuracy will be the one I use. Thanks for all the info. on the options available.
I'd add that the photo shows you cast some very pretty bullets, if it won't make you vain. Though I also read that swagged bullets can more accurate than cast due to havjng no air pockets in swagged, so maybe vanity won't get the best of you after all. Grin.
John
11-06-2009, 09:41 AM
#15
Boone & Crockett
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Comance county, OK
Posts: 11,408
Went to the Ft. Sill private weapons range this morning to try out the 280 grain Harvester hard cast bullets. This range faces north. There was wind out of the northeast at about 10 mph gusting to about 18 mph. i fired between wind gusts.
Gun: Old CVA Stag Horn 1:32"
Powder: 100 grains of JSG
Primer: Winchester shotgun
Bullet; Harvester 280 grain .44 hard cast in crush rib sabot.
Man, those things are hard to load. Fired five rounds at the 50 meter target without swabbing the bore. Four bullets went into the 3" bull, strung vertically. The fifth bullet hit 1/2 inch above the bull.
That CVA gun does something that is very neat. It puts the 240 grain .430 XTP, the 300 grain .430 XTP and these 280 grain Harvester hard cast bullets to pretty much the same point of aim. The vertical stringing experienced today may be due to the fact that my jug of JSG was opened two years ago.
Looks like minute of pig to me.
Gun: Old CVA Stag Horn 1:32"
Powder: 100 grains of JSG
Primer: Winchester shotgun
Bullet; Harvester 280 grain .44 hard cast in crush rib sabot.
Man, those things are hard to load. Fired five rounds at the 50 meter target without swabbing the bore. Four bullets went into the 3" bull, strung vertically. The fifth bullet hit 1/2 inch above the bull.
That CVA gun does something that is very neat. It puts the 240 grain .430 XTP, the 300 grain .430 XTP and these 280 grain Harvester hard cast bullets to pretty much the same point of aim. The vertical stringing experienced today may be due to the fact that my jug of JSG was opened two years ago.
Looks like minute of pig to me.
