MLKeith, I wish congress would put somecontrols on lawsuits especally the ones that limit our markets and some of these unbelieveable silly ones.
I believe we are looking at some deliberate differances between this and any other sub, this is a designerpowder to eliminate certain drawbacks and still be classified as a black powder sub. it supposedly has a different base than any other sub uses but they wont say what. If what I read is all true it will produce velocities like the Savage gets with smokeless and do it with pressures a Mag muzzleloader normally uses. I was told it will push a 250gr bullet close to 2200FPS with pressures close to or less than my normal load of 777 and that you should worry about cleaninga gun using it after a week or two hunting trip also that it will not work well with anything less than a 209. We will eventually see. Lee

Mike, Thanks for pointing this out. Interesting. Price will be the factor, if they sell it for $15/lb they will get a market.if it is about the same as 777 or JSG, then they will not do well.
Chap Gleason

As Chap said, at $15 it will do well as long as it lives up to its billing. Even at 777 prices I would at least try it and if it performs I would use it. If it is priced like BlackMag 3 I might try it but may not use it due to the price unless it really performs that much better. There are at least 3 reasons I don't use BM3, cost, lack of performance in my testing so far, and fouling (its fouling is as bad as 777 with a little less crud ring), not even mentioning the availability issues. APP for me suffers from similar problems, its cleaner for sure but the performance is less than what I see from any other powders, it is the slowest velocity powder I have tried so far and was not as accurate as 777 or Pyrodex for me. Of course others have had luck withthese and I hopethey continue to work for them.

The fact of the matter is that pricing will be as big a factor in its acceptance as any other and will probably determine whether it makes it or not. Thats my 2 cents worth.

David: I think you are correct. I really have had very good results with Black Mag'3 but have constantly been advising them that availability is number one and price is number two. I know getting a new powder on the market for a single product company is a real difficult thing to do but they have to understand that in the beginning. I hope that if this new powder is actually supported by a powder company like Accurate then they may have better distribution capability. It sounds like it is being processed similar to smokeless as the "extruded with a hole in the grain" description sounds like other smokeless powder I have had. As an older single body hunter I have to drop elk fast or they get to where I cannot retrieve them so I really like the possiblity of a fast second shot. Black Mag has allowed my Omega to do that. I have had elk dead on their feet and they still go almost a half mile before stopping. If they get an adrenalin rush they can go forever. (added information) According to a tech at Western the powder is not going to be available until after the Shot Show in February. It is not a rehash of the ascorbic acid based powders. It does require a hot 209 to ignite so the White guys probably won't be interested but Whites will shoot anything you can stuff down the barrel so it doesn't matter. I could not get a price indication. If it is being produced similar to regular smokeless and on the same equipment it is possible that they may keep the price reasonable. As far as distribution they should be in better shape than Magkor as they already have a distribution network for Western/Accurate powders. I am really interested in this one.

Hi guys,
I'm new to this forum but it is very interesting to read what everyone else is shooting and how they like it. I read Toby's report on Blackhorn 209 and he has nothing but good things to say about it except for the price. Where 777 or pioneer powder is avg. 25.00 a pound this Blackhorn 209 will be 30.00 for 10 oz. A ittle pricey for just practice, but sounds like really good for hunting.[&:]