Somebody should have told them that the Savage 10ML and ML-II have been around for several years, and smokeless powder has been around for well over a century. Guess they missed that.

What really surprises me is that every manufacturer is pursuing the "holy grail" of BP substitute powders (i.e. no fouling, non-corrosive and non-hygroscopic, greater performance, etc...) and everyone gets all excited about a new powder thats ALMOST, but not quite smokeless. But many of the people here who will rush to jump on this new bandwagon the minute it hits shelves are the ones who poo-poo true smokeless ML's. Hypocracy...anyone?[:@]

Mike

driftrider

Mostly because smokeless is not legal in a lot of states - including all three of the Pacific Northwest states....

That's exactly my point. Why is smokeless not legal, while these almost-95%-but-not-completely-smokeless powders are? Laws usually to at least a small degree reflect the will of the constituantcy they effect. Smokeless powder wouldn't be illegal is someone didn't want it so. So why the prejudice?

Mike

driftrider

guess that goes back to something in the Constitution called "states rights" - your state does not make rules for the neighboring state...

If I wanted to hunt with a single shot smokeless ML guess I could always use 1 bullet and a 30-30 or a 308 or better yet a Ruger #1

I am OK with the no smokeless rule - but yet i do want the option of inline/sabots/optics - make no sense does it...

Hey Mike, when you call them - ask if they would also like a hillbilly with a brand spankin' new KP1 to be a tester.

I think it would be a winner if it was comparable to smokeless powder in that you do not have to cleanyour MLright away. Sometimes after a long day hunting and butchering a deer, you don't feel like cleaning your ML right away. I would give it a whirl.

Oh now boys theres something to be said about all that smoke, Kinda gets me excited watchin that ol buck trying to get up after the smoke clears.

It is definately not Black Mag'3 as you can ignite BM3 with a #11 primer. In fact the ignition temperature of BM3 is the closest to real black powder of all the current substitute powders (won't work consistently in a flinter however). I will see if my contact at Magkor has anything to add to what we are reading. I doubt they welcome the competition. IfBlackhorn 209 can keep the price down it will really make a major impact I think. That isone of the big problems with ascorbic acid powders; they tend to be expensive.

I sent out some inquires to some friends, it appears one of them was involved in developing it:
Quote:

Lee,[/align]

The powder was developed by General Dynamics, the largest munitions manufacturer in the world. And when the engineers who put it together first camae to me 3 years ago to discuss...they said they could make a new muzzleolaoder powdeer do whatever we decided it had to do. And one of the things immediately brought up was better control of pressures...which would mean a progressive burning powder.[/align]

Blackhorn 209, according to those engineers, produces right at 5% higher velocities than FFFg Triple Seven, with about 10% lower pressures.[/align]

For reporting on the powder, for the .50 caliber, I've stopped at 110 grains...until more pressure data is availabile. However, in my own shooting, I've gone up to 120 grains to get the 250-grain Barnes TMZ out of my Knight at 2,168 f.p.s. - and still with good (sub 1 1/2 inch) accuracy.[/align][/align]Sabotloader might know who I was talking to, I dont feel free to mention his name with out asking. I am not about to spoil the source that might see about getting me a can to test. Lee[/align]

This is getting more interesting as information leaks out. I was told that General Dynamics was on contract with Magkor to make Black Mag'3 about the time the clumping issue came up. A source that I believe is reliable claims that GD cut some corners in the production causing some problems with the powder resulting in a cut off of the agreement between them and Magkor. Now we see that it might look like GD may have had an iron in the fire to come out with a competitive powder before they went into the agreement with Magkor. Sure wish I knew all the real information. I suppose it all the information was correct and could be proven it would spawn lawsuits and we would never see either of the powders on the market. I am not saying that this is true I am only saying that it might look that way to some.