recovered bullets
10-24-2007 | 05:45 AM
#71
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Dec 2005
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RE: recovered bullets
ORIGINAL: sabotloader
Chap
Back to Semisane's 250 Expanded Gold Dot....
I would really like to disagree with your statement.... I do not believe that 250's are over-expanded and near the end of their life. The 250 is constructed differently than the 300. If you look at a 250 you wil notice it has a much deeper HP than the 300. In fact if you look at Semisane's pictures again - look carefully at the right hand picture you can see the copper dot - about 1:00 off center. When the 250 expands to fully open it does not have the length of body as the 300 does (it does not have the body length in the first place. It really looks to me likeit expanded out just about right... the petals migh be laid back a little bit more that normal but still way over .75" and I would bet the bullet still has 85/90% of it weight.
And I guess as long as I am disagreeing - I should say i disagree here also. UC's lead bullet looks really great to me of even the one Cdad posted of a 460 BS. All lead (soft lead) do not and are not designed to expand the way modern hunting bullets do. The fact is his or both conicals expanded near perfectly for a lead bullet. Pan-caking of the frontal portion of the lead bullet is normal and depending on length or weight the remaining shank looks really good. Again if you weight either one of those bullets I would bet they are over 90%
Just my thoughts and goodness I am no expert...
Here is a picture of expanded Speers and you see the same process. The 300 has more rear mass weight than the 250 does non-the-less they expanded to their max - both far from the end of their lives - neither of the two were the petals even close to coming off.
Chap
If you compare the 250g with the 300, the 250s look like they are very near end of life and ready to break apart, the 300 look together and have done their business perfectly.
I would really like to disagree with your statement.... I do not believe that 250's are over-expanded and near the end of their life. The 250 is constructed differently than the 300. If you look at a 250 you wil notice it has a much deeper HP than the 300. In fact if you look at Semisane's pictures again - look carefully at the right hand picture you can see the copper dot - about 1:00 off center. When the 250 expands to fully open it does not have the length of body as the 300 does (it does not have the body length in the first place. It really looks to me likeit expanded out just about right... the petals migh be laid back a little bit more that normal but still way over .75" and I would bet the bullet still has 85/90% of it weight.
This looks pretty good but not perfect, anperfect performing terminalbullet is completely expanded at the head and the long shank of the bullet is intact,
Just my thoughts and goodness I am no expert...
Here is a picture of expanded Speers and you see the same process. The 300 has more rear mass weight than the 250 does non-the-less they expanded to their max - both far from the end of their lives - neither of the two were the petals even close to coming off.
Mike, Thanks for the push back. I was expecting some. My response would be, why do the Barnes and Nosler folks put a picture perfect expanded bullet like this on their web site? Note the shank intact, but the petals/head fully expanded, like the Nosler I showed. Why do they consider that perfect expansion and weight retention? I think it is because the bullet expanded in the body creating creating large wound channel, yet retained near 100% of weight and was not in danger of fragmenting when it hit a rib or bone on exit.I think that is perfect. I believe the 250g GD is about ready to break up, since it is all the way down to totally pancaked out. I think pancake is over expansion, like shown by Greg with the Dead Centers. I am not saying that pancake will not kill, but it is NOT optimal for shoot thru. I have found that pancake bullets are usually under the hide on the off side and the reason they don't exit for good blood trail is they used all their energy in expansion and little is left for penetration. Order and listen to the two free DVDs from Barnes on their Web site,
http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/free-dvds/
they talk a lot about designing the perfect bullet, andwhat arethe characteristics of the perfect bullet.
Chap
10-24-2007 | 06:05 AM
#72
Nontypical Buck
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RE: recovered bullets
ORIGINAL: gt2003
It looks like what it comes down to is good penetration coupled with proper/controlled expansion. Both seem to be pretty much equally important. If the bullet mushrooms to the size of a football but only penetrates 2 inches, no good. Or, if the bullet hits and doesn't expand any at all and does very little damage, no good either. So, mushrooming is good but its only 1 part of theequation. If the bullet gradually expands and goes through the vitalsand does adequate damage then we've got a winner. And, from the looks of the photos and the stories, we've got a bunch of winners out there. Thanks for all the input.This thread just gets better and better, Greg
It looks like what it comes down to is good penetration coupled with proper/controlled expansion. Both seem to be pretty much equally important. If the bullet mushrooms to the size of a football but only penetrates 2 inches, no good. Or, if the bullet hits and doesn't expand any at all and does very little damage, no good either. So, mushrooming is good but its only 1 part of theequation. If the bullet gradually expands and goes through the vitalsand does adequate damage then we've got a winner. And, from the looks of the photos and the stories, we've got a bunch of winners out there. Thanks for all the input.This thread just gets better and better, Greg
Chap
10-24-2007 | 06:07 AM
#73
Nontypical Buck
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RE: recovered bullets
ORIGINAL: Underclocked
Thanks Mike, looks like the Gold Dots are the way to go. Naturally I have a bunch of the others on the shelf.
Thanks Mike, looks like the Gold Dots are the way to go. Naturally I have a bunch of the others on the shelf.
10-24-2007 | 06:07 AM
#74
Fork Horn
Joined: Oct 2007
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RE: recovered bullets
Not sure what I was doing wrong with the 300 grain xtp's. I used their powder charge and bullet weight chart and should have been shooting well above the minimal effective velocities. I'd have to go check, it's been a couple of years since I shot them, but I think the minimal velocity was something like 1650 fps? I'll go double check and see what I come up with. Trial and error seems to be the theme of the day.
10-24-2007 | 06:14 AM
#75
Nontypical Buck
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RE: recovered bullets
ORIGINAL: Raider2000
OK I'll ad one from my 1860 Army Revolver that I've shot yesterday as an expiriment "you guys inspired me."
Gun:
25 year old Pietta 1860 Army steel frame .44
Loading:
30gr. FFFG Goex
Remington #11
Hornady .454 144gr.Ball
Chronograched @ 858fps. = 236ft. lbs.
Please forgive the pictures, they were taken with my camera phone here at work where my dial caliper is.
unfired ball.
Hitting into5 1X6 pine planks @ 20 yards. recovered weight = 130.2gr.
recovered from 9.1" of wet news print "inside a cardboard box" @ 20 yards. recovered weight = 139.8gr.
Yes it's just a round ball but the point is they do expand, maybe not a pretty as the new Gold Dots or what not but they do expand when hit into even relatively soft media & they have been killing Game for a long time..
OK I'll ad one from my 1860 Army Revolver that I've shot yesterday as an expiriment "you guys inspired me."
Gun:
25 year old Pietta 1860 Army steel frame .44
Loading:
30gr. FFFG Goex
Remington #11
Hornady .454 144gr.Ball
Chronograched @ 858fps. = 236ft. lbs.
Please forgive the pictures, they were taken with my camera phone here at work where my dial caliper is.
unfired ball.
Hitting into5 1X6 pine planks @ 20 yards. recovered weight = 130.2gr.
recovered from 9.1" of wet news print "inside a cardboard box" @ 20 yards. recovered weight = 139.8gr.
Yes it's just a round ball but the point is they do expand, maybe not a pretty as the new Gold Dots or what not but they do expand when hit into even relatively soft media & they have been killing Game for a long time..
Chap
10-24-2007 | 06:16 AM
#76
Nontypical Buck
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From:
RE: recovered bullets
ORIGINAL: sabotloader
UC
I think I do but their results are not always good - I dig up the pics...
But back to the Gold Dots - here is a picture of a bisected GD. You can see in the left hand picture the "cooper dot" that stops, for the most part, the expansion of this bonded bullet. I do not have a pic of a 250 but this "copper dot" is much farther down into the bullet at the bottom of the really deep hollow point. With the deep HP they have been able to lengthen the bullet which really helps in a sabot load.
UC
I think I do but their results are not always good - I dig up the pics...
But back to the Gold Dots - here is a picture of a bisected GD. You can see in the left hand picture the "cooper dot" that stops, for the most part, the expansion of this bonded bullet. I do not have a pic of a 250 but this "copper dot" is much farther down into the bullet at the bottom of the really deep hollow point. With the deep HP they have been able to lengthen the bullet which really helps in a sabot load.
10-24-2007 | 06:24 AM
#77
Nontypical Buck
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RE: recovered bullets
ORIGINAL: lemoyne
This might start a bit of disscussion, but I am going to comment on the reason I think different people have different results from the same bullet.
A lot of us strive for a certain amount of accuray,one of the things we do is to run the powder ladder with different kindsand amounts of powder.
There for we end up with a wide range of velocity as a result, we know these bullets were designed for certain velocity ranges but we like to ignore the fact.
Now for the part we will proably disagree on, some people use loads that won't open the bullet[cause them to mushroom ] One fellow used 75 gr of RS and shot one hole groups at 100yds; "I told him that good accuracy but NOT a deer load" He did not agree and shot a nice buck with it they had to track the buck witha dog on a leash for around a mile. Now we come to why, he was shooting a Shock Wave one of my favorite bullets, but they are designed for around 2000 fps , 75 gr will giveyou about 1400 fps with Goex FF that will barely open a250 gr XTP and a 230 or 240 gr XTP would be better.
Now this is just my opinion so fel free to put your own in here , but just for fun I will give those interested a few minimum for a few bullets.
XTP 230gr- 1400fps
XTP 240gr- 1500fps
XTP 250gr- 1500fps
with Gold Dots I would add 100fps to this
Shock Waves a minimum of 1850 fps
And please remember that the max velocity is a seoerate discussion to much can be worse than to little.
Lee
This might start a bit of disscussion, but I am going to comment on the reason I think different people have different results from the same bullet.
A lot of us strive for a certain amount of accuray,one of the things we do is to run the powder ladder with different kindsand amounts of powder.
There for we end up with a wide range of velocity as a result, we know these bullets were designed for certain velocity ranges but we like to ignore the fact.
Now for the part we will proably disagree on, some people use loads that won't open the bullet[cause them to mushroom ] One fellow used 75 gr of RS and shot one hole groups at 100yds; "I told him that good accuracy but NOT a deer load" He did not agree and shot a nice buck with it they had to track the buck witha dog on a leash for around a mile. Now we come to why, he was shooting a Shock Wave one of my favorite bullets, but they are designed for around 2000 fps , 75 gr will giveyou about 1400 fps with Goex FF that will barely open a250 gr XTP and a 230 or 240 gr XTP would be better.
Now this is just my opinion so fel free to put your own in here , but just for fun I will give those interested a few minimum for a few bullets.
XTP 230gr- 1400fps
XTP 240gr- 1500fps
XTP 250gr- 1500fps
with Gold Dots I would add 100fps to this
Shock Waves a minimum of 1850 fps
And please remember that the max velocity is a seoerate discussion to much can be worse than to little.
Lee
http://www.chuckhawks.com/underrated_hornady_XTP.htm
on the performance range of the XTP bullet. Chap
10-24-2007 | 06:32 AM
#78
Nontypical Buck
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From:
RE: recovered bullets
ORIGINAL: lemoyne
the problem is I have had to pass on some good deer because of its limitations so I dont use it any more. Lee
the problem is I have had to pass on some good deer because of its limitations so I dont use it any more. Lee
10-24-2007 | 06:50 AM
#79
Fork Horn
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 164
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RE: recovered bullets
Thanks for the chart Chap. That's exactly what i was trying to find. From the chart, the 300 grain xtp's should have performed perfectly at the velocities my ML was shooting. Live and learn. I never had the experience of recovering one so I don't know exactly what happened. I'm assuming they didn't expand very well on the small deer around here. Maybe that's why I'm having such good luck with the all lead bullets. Thanks to the link on the xtp's, I'm off to read it now. Thanks again, this is very interesting, Greg
10-24-2007 | 06:59 AM
#80
Nontypical Buck
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RE: recovered bullets
ORIGINAL: Ideaman
I would love to know what my Barnes look like, but they go through. leaving a nice exit I might add.
I would love to know what my Barnes look like, but they go through. leaving a nice exit I might add.
