wabi

I guess I'm fortunate to live in a state that's pretty liberal with it's hunting regulations. I've been hunting for around 50 years now and been shooting muzzleloaders since the early 1970's. I started off with a percussion sidelock .36 and soon had to try a flintlock .54. It was not only fun, but a great slayer of game. A .54 roundball is plenty for most game, as long as you are willing to get close enough to put it right where it should go.
When I started my archery hunting there were basic2 choices in bows - longbow or recurve. The the compound came along, but it was just too heavy & high-tech for me.
I still enjoy shooting a percussion sidelock (or flintlock, but I don't own one at the moment), but for serious big game hunting (deer is about it here in Ohio) I grab the inline. Why?
Because it is easier? - NO
Because it has more range? - somewhat, as an error in range estimation isn't quite as critical, but I still like to keep shots under 100 yards.
Because it gives me the highest percentage chance of cleanly killing the deer with one shot! With the scoped inline and a modern bullet in a sabot I can be veryconfidant in about any shot to 100 yards, or even slightly beyond.
If the law changed to flintlocks with primative sights& roundballs only I wouldn't feel like I had less hunting opportunity, I'd simply have to be a lot more selective in my shot opportunities.
Is the inline with a scope stillmuzzleloading?
It's legal, it's ethical, and it loads one shot at a time from the muzzle, so it's muzzleloadering to me!

I also use an Excalibur crossbow for archery season. It still flings a pointy little stick that drops like a rock for trajectory. It still kills by putting a razor sharp broadhead through the vitals, and it's legal archery equipment here.
If the law said longbows only, I'd still be out there deer hunting. I have a longbow & cedar arrows hanging right beside my desk as I write this. I still shoot my recurve several times a week and love to go "stump shooting" with my young son for relaxation. But for serious deer hunting I want the crossbow with a multiple crosshair (like a mil-dot scope for various ranges) scope and aluminum arrows with a mechanical broadhead with razor sharp blades that cut a massive wound channel.
Is the crossbow stillarchery?
It's legal, it's ethical, and it flings arrows, so it'sarchery to me!

If you want to hunt with a flintlock or longbow I have no complaints, all I would ask is that you know the limitations and keep the shots ethical.

roundball

Consider this:

Sounds like you got your personal defense all lined up......let me guess...you're a modern high tech, high pereformance, long range, scope mounted inline owner/shooterwho likes being able to also hunt in the traditional muzzleloading seasons originally established by and for traditional muzzleloading enthusiasts...but doing so using all the possible modern technological advantages available in the market place that include ballistics similar to many centerfire rifles, to make your hunting easier so there's nothing to study and learn.

It was really a retorical question...it describes the rationale for99.9% of all inline purchases and use in the country...some states are beginning to try and restore the muzzleloader seasons to what they were originally established for...that's all Idaho is doing, I hope they're successful, and I hope every state in the country follows suit.

Allowing todays state of the art modern high performace centerfire ballistic equivalent rifles that load from the frontinto original muzzleloading seasons is no different than the attempts to allow high tech, high performace, scoped sighted crossbows into the originally established bow seasons, and that's also beingfought tooth and nail at every turn, with obvious good reason too.

So if the modern inline tech-nocratisgoingto take advantage of something usinghigh tech gear several times more proficient than traditional styled muzzleloaders, then they shouldat least stand up and be menabout it and admit it...they shouldn'tpost self-serving drivelabout them being no different than traditional muzzleloaders...every 12 year old in the countryknows better than that.

Semisane

Consider this???

Well, young fella (I assume you're young because of the level of intolerance you display), I built my first muzzle loader in 1961 at the age of 17. In my younger days I've killed enough ducks, doves and quailwith an original English 14 gauge precussion double, and enough rabbits with that first 40 caliber caplock I built, to satisfy myself that I know what traditional hunting is all about. I sure do like it. I also like a recurve bow, a compound bow, a 42 caliber Blackhawk revolver, single shot 25-06, an in-line, a side-hammer, and an underhammer.

So let me tell ya - I don't have my "personal defense all lined up." What I do have is an open mind and a personal opinion that everybody ought to be able to do what makes them smile. There ought to be one hunting season for all, and everyone can use whatever weapon theyfeel like using that day. States ought to manage the harvest - not the hunting style.

Well, that's my opinion. You can have a different one - that's OK with me.

frontier gander

roundball isnt a young fella no more I think today was his 40th wedding anniversary.

sabotloader

roundball

All I can say to you roundball is your discription:

Never happened in Idaho even under the old rules. No scopes, no 209's - that was the previous rule and your theory of ML hunts established by traditional hunters did not wash here either - we had traditional "only" hunts and we had ML hunts - still couldn't use a modern ML but we could use an inline - thinkers like you got that all changed - hopefully temporarily....

Sorry to bust on you roundball, but you should learn what was here and how it served the majority of Idaho huntersand now what serves a minority of traditional hunters all becuse of organized outbursts like yours.

cascadedad

roundball, the topic is "IDAHO".

The changes that were proposed by Idaho were supposedlya "game management" decision. I have read nothing that says the changes were made to become more "traditional".

You should go back and read a couple prior threads.

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2026949&mpage=1&key=&#202720 2

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2040388&mpage=1

Maybe you could respond to some of the questions made back then that you ignored before jumping in again.

goatbrother

In the begining there was only a muzzleloader season, yes, MUZZLELOADER SEASON. Never did the word TRADITIONAL come into play. It was a muzzleloader season and any muzzleloader was legal. How many times must it be said, a muzzleloader loads from the muzzle, period!!!!! Look in a dictionary for crying out loud.

cascadedad

goatbrother, I think UC said in one of the previous threads, there are facts and there are opinions.

Some people could care less what the facts are.

cayugad

Consider this: Lets really examine this statementRoundball posted. I think him and I have walked this road before.

As obviously you do as well. We are all aware of your deep rooted traditional feelings.

And here is the big catch all Roundball and others like him love to spout. They always talk about inlines as modern high tech, which we know they are not modern, they have been around a while. Although with the new technological advances, I guess I can give youthat point. Tony Knight and other pioneers made great strides in this area. I own numerous inlines and still shoot #11 caps out of most of them when able to by design. I guess I need to get on the stick.

Then they talk, high performance. What Roundball fails to mention or refusesnot tois, the great majority of inlineshooter do not shoot 150 grain loads. Many seldom pass 100 grains of powder. While many of the rifles are able to, we find that the accuracy ofmost shooters and rifles, when pushed to the limits is not acceptable. I do not have statistics on thisstatement, butI would venture some traditional shooters use powder charges as big or bigger then some of the inline shooters do.

Long Range. This is another option they enjoy throwing out there. Yet many traditional shooters brag about 150 yard accuracy. Some of the longest distance muzzleloader shooting records was done with traditional muzzleloaders. Many of the records held still today. But they do not mention these fact. I really do not find any of my inlines any more "long range" then my traditional rifles.

Scope mounted... the also refuse to acknowledge that you can scope a traditional muzzleloader. During the civil war scoped traditional muzzleloaders were used by snipers. Thompson Center sells scope mounts Roundball if you want one for your Hawkins. The only thing scope mounted means is you are more prone to find a scope on a modern inline rifle then a traditional rifle. After all most inlines come pre drilled. It is a selling point, whether you use a scope or not. Of course, many states do not allow scopes during there muzzleloader season, but traditional shooters love to make sure that the uninformed political people know, all of us are out there with scoped inline muzzleloaders shooting ballistic point projectiles with 150 grains of powder equal to a 7mm mag,taking 200+ yard shots. Again, without the scope, your 200 yard shot would be a matter of practice, practice, and then, more practice. No matter what kind of rifle you shoot. Last trip to the range I discovered still, I can only shoot what I can see.


And Roundball'skicker of course is the inline shooters want to hunt in the traditional muzzleloading seasons. Grow up Roundball, if it were a traditional muzzleloading season inlines would not be allowed. He of course knows that but they do enjoy throwing that traditional muzzleloading season word around. As it bolsters their cause and plight.

Wisconsin has a "MUZZLELOADING SEASON." Notice I said muzzleloading season, not traditional muzzleloading season. Further, the states that do enjoy a "Traditional Muzzleloading Season" we discover many times that season was established before the introduction of the inlines rifle by Tony Knight basically in 1985 or shortly there after. Kind of hard for inline rifles shooters to develop a season back when the traditional shooters were pushing for a season. After all,they did not even exist. Isn't it. But as everyone knows, if you want to prove your point, you use words that make your side of the argument stronger. Those States that might have changed to allow inline rifles normally did so for game management reasons. Wisconsin for example was so deer infested in the southern end of the state, we had CWD take a good foot hold. They want the deer shot off. They hire sharp shooters. Their car deer accident rates have insurance companies up in arms, yet people like Roundball feel it proper to exclude inline shooters from a State that needed to reduce the herd. Kind of selfish there I would say.

Quote:

but doing so using all the possible modern technological advantages available in the market place that include ballistics similar to many center fire rifles, to make your hunting easier so there's nothing to study and learn.

Here we are again called center fires or compared to a center fire when you shoot an inline rifle. While your ONE SHOT in some cases might have some very impressive ballistics, again your "one shot" there are countless other inlines that due to reduced powder charges for accuracy, do not come near a good quality center fire cartridge. What center fire cartridge are you talking about Roundball? Maybe a 30-30.

I am not nor do I claim to be a ballistics expert. Any time you want to meet me on the range with your muzzle loader, I will bring my Remington Woodsmaster 30-06 semi automatic rifle and I will demonstrate the advantage of a center fire to you. Inlines are no more a center fire then the man in the moon. They shoot one fast shot. Without a scope they are still a limited range weapon, just as a center fire is with open sights. Although the center fire can miss and crank off a few more shots much fasterthen the muzzleloader. But hey Roundball we don't want to mention that fact do we.

And Inlines are easier and you have nothing to study or learn. If they are so easy to learn, why do we get flooded with questions about what projectile will shoot well out of my inline. Or they are having trouble getting an accurate load with their new inline.Look at the forum headings sometimes. Whendo you see, I have a traditional rifle and can't get it to shoot as a forum heading.

I got a new Tradition's flintlock, walked out in the back yard and at 50 yards shot a two inch group the first day. So what was more easy to do. And as for study and learn... well not all people really are interested in traditional rifles. Pardon those people for being different. That still does not reduce their desire to get out in the woods during season and enjoy hunting. They just do not care to learn about traditional rifles is all.


This is where they quote statistics that they can not back. Also Roundball and his psychic hotline has the ability to look in the hearts of all these inline people and know, that the only reason we get an inline is we are lazy, refuse to learn, and want a center fire. Could it be something as simple as these people love to hunt, and maybe want to fill their freezer with some wild game? Maybe they don't have the time, interestor money (have you looked at traditional rifle prices) to invest in traditional rifles. Check your crystal ball on that one for me would you?

Yes, some states are moving towards the traditional trend. Others though are moving to smokeless powder and optics being legal. But we will not count them in this. And Roundball it is your right to hope that this trend towards the traditional aspect of the sport continues. That way you do not have to share the season with anyone who might be different then you. You do not have to worry that someone might be a better shot then you with their inline. Or that inlines might spark more interest in the sport and due to that help hold true a tradition that is dying out in some places. Spark interest so that we have a voice with Washington and our State legislators. ButI am glad that your wishes are coming true. Even at the dismay of many that lost their privilege to hunt in a manner that was legal at one time. Kind of like Idaho.. right? Still as long as traditional shooters are happy, then we all should be happy... right?



And here again, because one group or person does not like the trends or the rifles and equipment, then it is wrong. Cross bows are legal for those disabled in Wisconsin. Scopes are not though (but I might be wrong there). Even though I would qualify for the crossbow, I do not get into that. I can no longer pull my compound bow, and a recurve is out of the question. So I am happy hunting with my muzzleloaders.

I like the tech-nocrat part. When you have a failing argument, you always resort to name calling or comparing them to something of lesser value. Like say for instance the intelligence of a 12 year old. Very good Roundall. And now we are several times more proficient then a traditional styled muzzleloader. WOW.. more statistics here. And your proof is?? And we should be men (and ladies.. ) and stand up and admit that our inlines are not equal to traditional muzzleloader. This self serving drivel (name calling again..). While many inline shooters will admit that our sabots have more killing power then say, your .50 caliber roundball. Why is that bad? Is not the intent to harvest in a humane fashion? Of all my open sighted rifles, the best in the stable is a Renegade with a .58 caliber GMB on it. I can shoot about 100 yards with out a scope. No matter what rifle. A little further on a good day. Are you saying my .58 caliber will not kill as effective as a 240 grain XTP or a 250 grain Shockwave? I would not bet the farm on that one.

To end this rant.. and that is all it is. No one is asking Traditional shooters to stop shooting roundball or conical at deer. No one is telling them they can not shoot flintlocks or hunt in the style they like. No one is trying to take their season away. Although I understand some have suggested that the roundball itself be outlaws based on ballistics. I disagree with that, but that is besides the point. Yet the traditional rifle shooters for some reason insist for all the pie. They want inlines kicked out of modern muzzleloader seasons and then it turned over to traditional muzzleloader season. That to me is selfish in nature. Traditional shooters want inline shooters out of the sport. I just don't see the need to tell someone what to hunt with. I am not out there competing with anyone.

I bet if OSHA recently had only asked to have black powder excluded for shipping by common carrier, the traditional shooters would have asked, even beggedfor inline shooters support. Even though really, inline shooters can and do really not need black powder to continue with their sport. It would have been a call to unite, wave the flag, and call to arms to save OUR hunting heritige. A heritiage that people like Roundball seem more then willing to exclude myself, as an inline shooter from from.

I say, you worry about what you hunt with, be safe, have fun and I will support you and your efforts. You on the other hand tell me, support the traditional shooters in all they want and we will work being the political lines to see if we can get you kicked out of the season. Who's the 12 year old here? Be safe all and sorry for the rant. Its a touchy subject to me.

cascadedad

Are you seeing red er sumpin Dave?

Well said and thanks for stating more facts. If you read back through roundball's posts in the the threads I pointed out, he likes "99.9%" and sometimes "99.99%" and maybe even "99.999%".

Here is one of his quotes I like.

"Virtually no one buys and uses an inline without a scope." I guess I am a "no one". Come to think of it, so is my son, my brother AND my dad.